Something I am starting to really understand as being vital to completing a carve gybe is making the rig go light....... its something I am trying to get a handle on as well as the footwork.....

Cribbs says to oversheet when heading downwind so you speed up past the speed of the wind..... I'm not really getting this happening so far... I had one gybe recently where I felt it on one occassion and literally fell back into the water as no resistance was felt on the sail even though it was windy enough.... that would have been the sweet spot to flip the rig.... and I'm guessing that since the rig is flipped while travelling at a greater speed than the wind it comes around nicely into your hand on the boomshaka...... then when you head up as you complete the carve the wind then fills the sail again? and powers you out? since you aren't travelling faster than the wind at that point? Am I understand this right?

Discuss / add / suggest :D

I think Cribby means that if you oversheet you offer less sail/edge of the sail to the wind going dead downwind . This means it doesn't catch much wind making it weightless and easy to flip. If you don't and are entering really powered up as he suggests the power in the rig can make the entry uncontrollable - get catapulted board bounce everywhere ( although thats more about not enough mastfoot pressure) etc..
This is the bit I am working on. Oversheeting , letting the rig pull me forwards ( eek..still not getting that one! & tipping it into the turn..I've got to lift some handweights and build my arms up as I must have been doing it right last sail with my 5.8m ( biggish sail for me) and strained my arm muscles.
I haven't been able to do much with my arm all week and I'm not sure how its going to go sailing tomorrow but hopefully it will blow so I can use a 5 or 4m which won't need as much effort to over sheet.

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sboardcrazy said...

I think Cribby means that if you oversheet you offer less sail/edge of the sail to the wind going dead downwind . This means it doesn't catch much wind making it weightless and easy to flip. If you don't and are entering really powered up as he suggests the power in the rig can make the entry uncontrollable - get catapulted board bounce everywhere ( although thats more about not enough mastfoot pressure) etc..
This is the bit I am working on. Oversheeting , letting the rig pull me forwards ( eek..still not getting that one! & tipping it into the turn..I've got to lift some handweights and build my arms up as I must have been doing it right last sail with my 5.8m ( biggish sail for me) and strained my arm muscles.
I haven't been able to do much with my arm all week and I'm not sure how its going to go sailing tomorrow but hopefully it will blow so I can use a 5 or 4m which won't need as much effort to over sheet.

So many things to remember!!! How do you go with the boomshaka? Some of these advanced dudes seem to leisurely slide their hand up the boom and flip with one hand.... its rediculous.... all while stepping........ and even in waves......

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

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pweedas said...

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

That sounds awesome.

You mean that the board is going faster than the wind right?

Think it might be worth not trying to complete gybes at the moment, but work on sensing the light feeling??? piecing it together.......? Perhaps I am wasting time looking for a completed carve gybe...... just experiment.....

No. The board is not going faster than the wind.
The board is going slower than the wind because it is this difference that provides the force to rotate the sail.

Whoa - have to have the gybes pretty dialed in to do those on que. So the board slows, wind faster, pushes sail around.....geezus...

Just from my own trials and tribulations while learning them, if you stand around waiting for a sail that feels weightless you will be flipping the rig way too late, the moment has been and gone. You certainly shouldn't be falling over backwards, at least on the entry phase.

I'd suggest just trying a few gybes where you set up your wide hands and the initiate the carve but instead of worrying about the footwork at all, just try flipping the rig as soon as the board is just about to point downwind or even a little earlier. Hard to explain but you want the rig to be flipped and coming back to you as you start to bear into the wind again.

This should give you a feel for when you need to start the rig flip, you won't likely be sailing away planing but just try having less things to worry about to sort out the timing. Definitely tie it in with your footwork later (don't try to learn strap to strap first up).

To try to simplify the "light sail" if the sail is being ripped away from you when you let go with the back hand then you need to be going faster or you are letting go way to early, but after MUCH experimentation I found that my tendancy was to try the rig flip too late. I'd have a hard time catching and controlling it and had slowed down and pointed upwind too far by then for any planing exit.

It's rare that you're speeds and timing will be ideal where the sail will float around and be in the perfect spot for you to catch on the other side. To begin with be a little proactive about making it flip quickly and when you catch it after the flip try to pull the sail across you so that the mast isn't behind you. Make it happen rather than hoping for the perfect rig flip.

As a side note, my other big mistake when learning was way too tight a carve, a wider loop gives you a lot more time to get things right and means that you don't lose speed as quickly when you start to head upwind again.

How light is this? (a classic photo, circa 1989)

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K Dog said...

sboardcrazy said...

I think Cribby means that if you oversheet you offer less sail/edge of the sail to the wind going dead downwind . This means it doesn't catch much wind making it weightless and easy to flip. If you don't and are entering really powered up as he suggests the power in the rig can make the entry uncontrollable - get catapulted board bounce everywhere ( although thats more about not enough mastfoot pressure) etc..
This is the bit I am working on. Oversheeting , letting the rig pull me forwards ( eek..still not getting that one! & tipping it into the turn..I've got to lift some handweights and build my arms up as I must have been doing it right last sail with my 5.8m ( biggish sail for me) and strained my arm muscles.
I haven't been able to do much with my arm all week and I'm not sure how its going to go sailing tomorrow but hopefully it will blow so I can use a 5 or 4m which won't need as much effort to over sheet.

So many things to remember!!! How do you go with the boomshaka? Some of these advanced dudes seem to leisurely slide their hand up the boom and flip with one hand.... its rediculous.... all while stepping........ and even in waves......

I must admit I think he says to jerk the rig or something which makes it happen automatically but I haven't figured that out yet so have to remember.. Sometimes I don't! When I was relearning to gybe using his method I'd do a post mortem when I was sitting in the water after a stuffed gybe..ah I forgot to do..X... Too cold to do it now..I'll revisit that nex summer..

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pweedas said...

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

That's how I used to do them in the 90's.. Why can't I do them like that now..?

If your doing the guy cribb way his 3 step plan helps to make it easier..Dry land homework for the rig flip & footchange till its automatic , big board lightwind practise to get everything in sequence and then high wind go for it to finally get the planing stuff..
Still a lot to think of .
I get the occasional fantastic flat out gybe ( in flat water ) but at the moment I often stuff up hopes of planing exits by exiting at too sharp an angle so I'm concentrating on trying to keep the radius of my turns wider after the rig flip.( If I want to try & plane out).

Gybes are really tricky and unless you are athletically gifted I would suggest you break them down and work on one bit at a time, starting with the entry. When you have that so it is automatic then go on to the next step and so on. Dry land practice helps to speed up the process a lot.
To oversheet, straighten your front arm and move the sail forward, move the back hand back, and sheet in with the back hand. The sail will pull you into the turn and if you are going fast enough the rig will go light. You should be on your toes and leaning forward so you will not fall backwards. Flip the rig just before you are heading directly downwind. For a while you will be too busy thinking about everything else to even notice when you are going directly downwind!
If you have enough board speed the rig will come around nicely and you can grab it, and when you get your back hand on the boom and sheet in the power will come on, so get low to brace yourself.
Regular practice practice practice is the key. You get rusty very quickly if you haven't sailed in a while.

Some good tips, really glad I asked, helps to visualise your comments.

Print to file.

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Windxtasy said...

Gybes are really tricky and unless you are athletically gifted I would suggest you break them down and work on one bit at a time, starting with the entry. When you have that so it is automatic then go on to the next step and so on. Dry land practice helps to speed up the process a lot.
To oversheet, straighten your front arm and move the sail forward, move the back hand back, and sheet in with the back hand. The sail will pull you into the turn and if you are going fast enough the rig will go light. You should be on your toes and leaning forward so you will not fall backwards. Flip the rig just before you are heading directly downwind. For a while you will be too busy thinking about everything else to even notice when you are going directly downwind!
If you have enough board speed the rig will come around nicely and you can grab it, and when you get your back hand on the boom and sheet in the power will come on, so get low to brace yourself.
Regular practice practice practice is the key. You get rusty very quickly if you haven't sailed in a while.

Fletcher from SHQ down here mentioned to flip the rig before heading directly down wind.... think I really need to play with this.

weighing in here with no solid credentials...

if i can find a 'relatively' flat spot and have plenty of entry speed i can crack a reasonable and consistent planning gybe. and I do it without really over-sheeting.

first step is *always* to put my back hand way back so there would be a natural sheeting I guess. but every now and then i get it right and exaggerate the oversheet and wow - it is such a strong carving position, and I feel super confident with it even in rough overpowered weather.

but it's counter intuitive - i spend so much time making room between the sail and ourselves, opposing that pull by leaning away, that pulling it into screams 'wrong!!!'

i flip the rig a lot earlier than just about everyone I observe. at times (not through intention and quite by surprise to me as well) i let go of the rig with both hands about 75% of the way through the flip and catch it on the other tack.

so while i can't say with certainty, i suspect my early rig flip is what makes the rig go light

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sboardcrazy said...

pweedas said...

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

That's how I used to do them in the 90's.. Why can't I do them like that now..?

I found them easier to do on the older boards because the masts were further towards the front. I used to step out of the straps and move about 10 inches forwards. (250mm for the metricated )
This helps the board glide around the gybe on the plane for longer and at a slower speed so it gave more time to pick the exact moment of sail flip right. If the timing is wrong it all falls in heap.
The later boards have the mast much further back and so you tend to do the gybe in the footstraps and therefore it only works in a stronger breeze.
You can still do it in the straps but the board slows much quicker so the time available to do the sail flip is considerably shorter.
If the board is too slow you just end up in burying the tail and stalling out.
Even on the newer boards you will still have more success learning this if you get out of the straps and stand just in front of them.

The pic shown above shows it all pretty well.


You can see his left hand was the front hand and he has just flicked the mast backwards and a little to the right. His left hand is where it finished up after doing this.
The sail is in the middle of the rotation process and his right hand is in position to pick up the boom at the end of the rotation. By then, his left hand will be moved into postion to pick up the boom as his new back hand. Both hands hit the boom at the same time on the pickup.
When it goes right, it's all just sweet!

You carve with your hips not your feet...

If you carve with your feet then the board shoots away down wind and you fall off the back - unless you dig in with your feet so you can catch up....

Stand on land and practice transferring the weight onto your toes with your hips not your toes.

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K Dog said...

I had one gybe recently where I felt it on one occassion and literally fell back into the water as no resistance was felt on the sail even though it was windy enough.

If your body is forward then it doesn't matter that there's no power in the rig.

Within the physics of it there are two stable solutions to gybing.

1 Enter fast, lean forward, no power in the sail but you're not leaning back against it so it's fine.

2 Enter fast, lean back, board slows down, power increases in sail which is useful because you're leaning back against it etc...

Moving from 2 to 1 is a leap of faith. Focussing on having rig forward and body weight low (more stable) helps plus carving from your hips as I said before. Also avoid scooping by aiming to keep as much of the nose of the board visible for as long as possible into the turn

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K Dog said...

Something I am starting to really understand as being vital to completing a carve gybe is making the rig go light....... its something I am trying to get a handle on as well as the footwork.....

Cribbs says to oversheet when heading downwind so you speed up past the speed of the wind..... I'm not really getting this happening so far... I had one gybe recently where I felt it on one occassion and literally fell back into the water as no resistance was felt on the sail even though it was windy enough.... that would have been the sweet spot to flip the rig.... and I'm guessing that since the rig is flipped while travelling at a greater speed than the wind it comes around nicely into your hand on the boomshaka...... then when you head up as you complete the carve the wind then fills the sail again? and powers you out? since you aren't travelling faster than the wind at that point? Am I understand this right?

Sounds just right.
But "Oversheeting" doesn't sound right unless one is overpowered. Sheet in to keep maximum power in the sail as you speed up turning downwind (Apparent wind and all that).
If your board continued to turn due to correct foot placement, then "throwing the sail towards the front of the board" when it goes light (I am just quoting Cribbie here) would have it fill up with wind instead of water becuase it won't be torn out of your hands.

Discuss / add / suggest :D

like GP said...

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Windxtasy said...

Gybes are really tricky and unless you are athletically gifted I would suggest you break them down and work on one bit at a time, starting with the entry. When you have that so it is automatic then go on to the next step and so on. Dry land practice helps to speed up the process a lot.
To oversheet, straighten your front arm and move the sail forward, move the back hand back, and sheet in with the back hand. The sail will pull you into the turn and if you are going fast enough the rig will go light. You should be on your toes and leaning forward so you will not fall backwards. Flip the rig just before you are heading directly downwind. For a while you will be too busy thinking about everything else to even notice when you are going directly downwind!
If you have enough board speed the rig will come around nicely and you can grab it, and when you get your back hand on the boom and sheet in the power will come on, so get low to brace yourself.
Regular practice practice practice is the key. You get rusty very quickly if you haven't sailed in a while.

I find it really hard to straighten the front arm & so end up too close to the rig.I get gybes but they'd be better if I kept the rig further away..

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ginger pom said...

K Dog said...

I had one gybe recently where I felt it on one occassion and literally fell back into the water as no resistance was felt on the sail even though it was windy enough.

If your body is forward then it doesn't matter that there's no power in the rig.


1 Enter fast, lean forward, no power in the sail but you're not leaning back against it so it's fine.

This is probably the most important thing that has helped me in the long arduous trek to getting this move. If your weight is back, you are burying the tail, that means slow.

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pweedas said...

sboardcrazy said...

pweedas said...

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

That's how I used to do them in the 90's.. Why can't I do them like that now..?

I found them easier to do on the older boards because the masts were further towards the front. I used to step out of the straps and move about 10 inches forwards. (250mm for the metricated )
This helps the board glide around the gybe on the plane for longer and at a slower speed so it gave more time to pick the exact moment of sail flip right. If the timing is wrong it all falls in heap.
The later boards have the mast much further back and so you tend to do the gybe in the footstraps and therefore it only works in a stronger breeze.
You can still do it in the straps but the board slows much quicker so the time available to do the sail flip is considerably shorter.
If the board is too slow you just end up in burying the tail and stalling out.
Even on the newer boards you will still have more success learning this if you get out of the straps and stand just in front of them.

The pic shown above shows it all pretty well.


You can see his left hand was the front hand and he has just flicked the mast backwards and a little to the right. His left hand is where it finished up after doing this.
The sail is in the middle of the rotation process and his right hand is in position to pick up the boom at the end of the rotation. By then, his left hand will be moved into postion to pick up the boom as his new back hand. Both hands hit the boom at the same time on the pickup.
When it goes right, it's all just sweet!

I found it easier on old boards because of the extra room, too. I'm glad I'm not the only one! I think you are dead right about the importance of moving forward (although I try to stay in the straps and lean the upper body forward) and allowing the rig to flip by itself....if you lean forward you maintain speed and therefore the rig does the work for you.

As Windxtasy says, the trick for us mere mortals is to break it down and practise each bit.

The picture of Dunky is probably about '85, judging from his size and the gear. We were training partners at the worlds in Garda that year and we had gear like that....funny thing is he got his to go a lot faster than I did!

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Bristol said...

How light is this? (a classic photo, circa 1989)

"Looks like he's got time to fit in some Tia Chi between jybes" or something like that I think the caption said.

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pweedas said...

sboardcrazy said...

pweedas said...

When everything goes right, at the point of the sail flip, the sail is so light you can initiate the sail rotation by flickiing the mast backwards a little with the front hand and then completely let go of it for a second or two as it rotates, and then you pick it up on the other side with both hands in the right place on the boom. Except for the short flick at the beginning, your hands are off the rig for the entire time of the sail flip.
The sail stays completely in position and doesn't blow forwards at all, so long as everything is balanced, right speed, right timing etc.
The board is going slower than wind speed to do this but not by a lot. The art is in determining when the force on the sail is light enough so it doesn't blow the rig forwards when you let it go, but still strong enough to flip the sail to the other side.
When it all comes together it's magic.

That's how I used to do them in the 90's.. Why can't I do them like that now..?

I found them easier to do on the older boards because the masts were further towards the front. I used to step out of the straps and move about 10 inches forwards. (250mm for the metricated )
This helps the board glide around the gybe on the plane for longer and at a slower speed so it gave more time to pick the exact moment of sail flip right. If the timing is wrong it all falls in heap.
The later boards have the mast much further back and so you tend to do the gybe in the footstraps and therefore it only works in a stronger breeze.
You can still do it in the straps but the board slows much quicker so the time available to do the sail flip is considerably shorter.
If the board is too slow you just end up in burying the tail and stalling out.
Even on the newer boards you will still have more success learning this if you get out of the straps and stand just in front of them.

The pic shown above shows it all pretty well.


You can see his left hand was the front hand and he has just flicked the mast backwards and a little to the right. His left hand is where it finished up after doing this.
The sail is in the middle of the rotation process and his right hand is in position to pick up the boom at the end of the rotation. By then, his left hand will be moved into postion to pick up the boom as his new back hand. Both hands hit the boom at the same time on the pickup.
When it goes right, it's all just sweet!

Great explanation! I thought it was because modern ones are lighter & bounce more & so need mast foot pressure etc to control them but this makes sense too..

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da vecta said...
"Looks like he's got time to fit in some Tia Chi between jybes" or something like that I think the caption said.

Your memory is great. The exact caption was Gybe tip from Bjorn Dunkerbeck: 'Relax in the middle of your gybe, try some Tai Chi'.

The photo was in the October, 1989 issue of Sailboard Extra. Why have I kept this magazine? Because it has a six-page "gybe clinic", the topic of this thread. Needed help then; still need it now.

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Bristol said...

The photo was in the October, 1989 issue of Sailboard Extra. Why have I kept this magazine? Because it has a six-page "gybe clinic", the topic of this thread. Needed help then; still need it now.

Sounds good. Any chance of 6 pages scanned and uploaded to this thread?

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Wollemi said...

Bristol said...

The photo was in the October, 1989 issue of Sailboard Extra. Why have I kept this magazine? Because it has a six-page "gybe clinic", the topic of this thread. Needed help then; still need it now.

Sounds good. Any chance of 6 pages scanned and uploaded to this thread?

Yeh yeh yeh..I wonder if it would be applicable to modern equipment?

Sorry to flog this topic, but wondering about laydown gybes and the rig flip.

Initially I was thinking you lay the sail down through most of the turn, but been watching videos again and again, and thinking you lay the gybe to bear away downwind right? Then flip the rig before you pass to the otherside of the wind, so same theory, flip the rig before the other wind direction even on a lay down gybe?

Am I understand this right?

I am riding a couch for a few days, sodon't do what I do

Yes, rig flip does not change except that the sail has to come back up and fotward faster.

The more you read, the more it will clag up your style, maybe?
The main thing is (like a kiter?), to be always aware of where your sail is and what it is doing. Lots and lots of TOW fror this.

A laid down sail (away from the waves) is to help
complete a gybe when totally overpowered.
At the other extreme, not much wind, a half second of clew first before the rig flip wll stop the board coming off the plane, but a "THAI CHI" moment is nicer and depends on more entry speed..