Longboards!

Wouldn't it be great to have an ongoing thread where all things longboard could be bounced around?

New one's, Old one's, Wally's, Raceboards, D2's; equipment, technique - dreams and aspirations. I reckon longboards could justify their own forum, especially as so many people that are returning to the sport after a layoff have their sights set on a longboard of some description. But short of that, how about this thread?

I'm aiming at boards 3.5m or longer with daggerboards, as a non-dogmatic thing though. True longboards, we all know what they are.


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I've got a longboard question to kick it off:

Simple query - Is it possible to pump along and make forward progress in zero wind? And if so, what is the technique?

Where I launch from is very often at a kind of meeting of winds, as they blow in from adjacent valleys and directions. In most breezes I have little puffs from random directions all around the compass, even wind from straight above spreading out in all directions, these puffs are interspersed with long holes of ZERO wind.

I can pump along happily in the barest zephyr. I've yet to find something that works when the wind has truly departed.

[Can't imagine it makes too much difference, but for completeness I'm on a Lechner a390 with a Barracouta 8.4 racesail.]

ok, i will nibble ...

there is/was a site called http://lbwindsurfing.com that was dedicated to longboard windsurfing
however, i say is/was because the site sometimes disappears or like currently lies VERY dormant
there are NO forum entries from 2016 and some of the latest 2015 entries are from me ...

getting back to starting point or getting through wind shadows and zero wind issues are not just affecting longboard users
obviously pumping has to be part of the equation
personally find that even 2 knot winds are so much better than trying to pump in zero winds
if one has zero wind and there are also waves and/or current to contend with
rather than explaining the pumping, will put a link ...
howtowindsurf101.com/windsurfing-pumping/ & howtowindsurf101.com/how-to-get-back-if-the-wind-drops/

if I am heading back and have wind / equipment or fatigue issues, I will swim to shore (if less than 1 km)
this is not so much an option when going out, but i have seen videos in Hawaii where they do just that ...

sometimes i wonder if we don't need a really tiny waterproof electric motor at the back to just gently urge the board forward in no wind situations

Olympic windsurfers pump.

I saw it on a bumper sticker.

i wish i was olympic material!

Thanks Joe,

Yep, I sometimes do the boom balanced on the board paddling thing. Although, as the article notes, a bit off a puff often plays havoc with that technique. Zero and puffs is what I have.
So I stand around in 'zero and puffs', making progress in the puffs and trying to air row myself along in the zero. It's not so far, about 300 metres, but it's littered with moored boats.

No big deal, it still begs the original question though....




p.s. my board proudly says 'Olympic Sailboard' on the side. It must pump big time. I wouldn't mind one of those bumper stickers.

LBWS came from an idea I had which was taken up by Pat and Rob, who did the vast majority of the work and kept it up after Pat and I had become busy running WODs and Raceboards in Oz. At the time we launched it the longboard scene was almost dead, with the Kona still to arrive and the WOD the only longboard still in production. After a while it became obvious that longboarding would survive and that LBWS may have done its bit in keeping the ideal alive. Now maybe we could revive it now that WINDSups etc are back in.

Re pumping; pumping upwind in a calm is actually easier than going upwind in very light winds (a couple of knots or so) while pumping. In fact when racing upwind in dead light airs it can be better to sail for the completely dead patches rather than for the puffs of wind.

The key (IMHO) is to visualise what is happening to the air flow over the rig. Pumping in a breeze relies partly on hysterisis, which is the tendency of the "attached flow" of wind to stay attached temporarily, even if the sail is over-sheeted for a second or two. But pumping in lighter winds seems to create vortices; in really light stuff we are actually using the sail almost as a paddle, reaching forward with the head, "grabbing" a bit of air, and then pulling the head back as if we were pulling a paddle or oar.

However, what seems to happen when the board and air are still is that we can flail away, pumping hard but getting nowhere. I think what is happening is that we are essentially stirring the air close to the rig into a mess of vortices, but not actually moving the bulk of air backwards. The key seems to be to use massive forward rig lean, as if we are moving the tip of the rig away from the mess of churned-up air and into the "clean" air in front of the rig. Therefore the rig must be sheeted in, directly in line with the centreline of the board, so that it enters the "clean" air without disturbing it - only when the mast is tipped as far forward as possible can we open up the angle, and then only a little bit - or else we are essentially pushing the boom out against the turbulent air further aft, and therefore pushing ourselves backwards. Once we pull that chunk of clean air aft, under Newton's law we must move the board forward. And once we start moving forward, we escape the bubble of churned-up air we have created and we can once generate apparent wind.

The keys seem to be 1- sometimes stop pumping for 3-5 seconds, to allow the air immediately around the rig to settle down, partly so that the rig can be moved easily.
2- Use as much forward lean on the mast as possible, to get into clean air and get some leverage, while ensuring that the rig is directly in line with the board centreline so that it slices through the air and does not mess up airflow or push the board backwards;
3- Initially, when sheeting on (ie giving the rig a bit of angle away from the board centreline) do it by pulling the front (mast) hand around and aft, rather than by pushing the back (boom) hand forward, since if there is no apparent wind pushing the boom will actually push us backwards;
4- End up with the rig dramatically across the board; it's like when we are pumping downwind in very light airs on the WOD, where you reach forward with the rig directly along the board centreline and pull back to 90 degrees and even beyond;
5- Pump slowly at first;
6- As boardspeed picks up and the apparent wind picks up, increase the pumping tempo;
7- start pumping like you do when going downwind in very light winds, ie with a lot of rig movement fore-and-aft and the boom end and mast swinging through 180 degree arcs.

Sorry for the long winded reply, but due to a lack of natural talent I have to think this sort of thing through. It all seems to work, though, as in the WODs we do a fair bit of this stuff and I was quick in the dead light pumping duels.

Thanks Chris for taking the time to reply so thoroughly! A long winded reply about a short winded problem, balance is maintained!

What you say makes perfect sense.

The concept of the air being messy and giving time for it to settle is very useful and clear. Also I think I'm probably not making large enough rig movements, not reaching far enough forward.

I'll work on it until it's nailed.

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Regarding LBWS: Of course I've discovered the site and browsed around in there. I'd join in if it became a current thing again for sure. I do think though that we're perhaps more likely to get strong patronage here on Seabreeze where there is already so much action. It's kind of like how do you start a Facebook alternative when so many people are glued to facebook?

HEADS UP !!

Mistral One Design on ebay. With rig. Three days to go, current bid $2.25. Sylvania Waters, Sydney.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wind-surfer-Mistral-one-design-7-4-/172166194664?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276



Note: I know nothing about it, I'm not connected in any way, I just saw the listing and am sharing.

@ Chris249 ..."pumping upwind in a calm" *ahem* if there is no wind, how can you say you're going upwind?

Sorry, I tend to notice things like this

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saltyheaven said...
HEADS UP !!

Mistral One Design on ebay. With rig. Three days to go, current bid $2.25. Sylvania Waters, Sydney.


http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Wind-surfer-Mistral-one-design-7-4-/172166194664?&_trksid=p2056016.l4276



Note: I know nothing about it, I'm not connected in any way, I just saw the listing and am sharing.

$371 now!

Needs a hole fixed. Shame I'm in WA

Is there anyone here who feels qualified to cast an opinion about aspect ratio in raceboard sails?

I sailed briefly with a Severne Raceboard 8.5 today, (from memory of reading it on the sail; luff 496, boom 245) Quite a contrast it was having just jumped off my Barracouta 8.4 (luff 520, boom 222). It felt very, very different; No doubt aided by it being on a Phantom 380 which felt about as wide, flat and stable as a football field after the D2. Unfortunately there wasn't a heap of wind and I'd love to try it again in a decent breeze...

It seems the whole world of performance sailing has long since gone high aspect, in contrast a lot of windsurf rigs are decidedly squat.

Thoughts, comments, experiences?


Edit: I see that the current Raceboard 8.5 is 512/235... regardless I'm still interested. The Demon sails for instance look very high aspect indeed, and I saw mention of an extra tall 8.5 (Demon) claiming the most power possible out of an 8.5.

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Wet Willy said..
@ Chris249 ..."pumping upwind in a calm" *ahem* if there is no wind, how can you say you're going upwind?

Sorry, I tend to notice things like this

When the only wind is the apparent wind from pumping, all directions are upwind.

LBWS will be coming back soon although is doesn't really need to. It has served it's purpose in assisting the revival of longboard windsurfing.
Hey 249, you coming to the Raceboard Worlds?

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NotWal said..

Wet Willy said..
@ Chris249 ..."pumping upwind in a calm" *ahem* if there is no wind, how can you say you're going upwind?

Sorry, I tend to notice things like this

When the only wind is the apparent wind from pumping, all directions are upwind.

Can't really argue with that!

I'm having a short PM conversation regarding my 8.4 and there doesn't seem to be any way to attach images to a PM so I've posted them here.

Not really intending them to be for general consumption, but then I've no issue with that either!

Barracouta 8.4. (Mistral IMCO 7.4 for comparison.) This is the sail set for light winds.

D2 vs Raceboard on a dead downwinder. D2 running square and Raceboard tacking downwind.

How does this game normally play out in a mixed fleet? Who gets there first?

I ask because we were kind of playing this game a bit today. (One 3nm run, but we each took opposite sides of the bay.) There was not quite enough wind for the Raceboard to plane all the time, not so much wind that the D2 was at risk of falling (Well you know, not more risk that usual!) . 12 knots or so.

Its hard to go very deep in marginal conditions. I would expect a d2 the win in that case just from my experience of being beaten downwind by dinghies running square in those conditions.

Power the raceboard up a few knots and the tables will turn.

This weekend racing against Rsx on my Phantom in 15 -18knts I could run as deep and fast as one of the guys on an rsx but one of the girls ran so much deeper that she repeatedly flogged me downwind. We put it down to power to weight ratio I was using the same size sail as her but about 30 kilos heavier.

Nice third post, well done to you


Edit: looks like the post I was referring to has been deleted. Noice!

This post deleted because the offending post it referred to was also deleted.

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cammd said..
Its hard to go very deep in marginal conditions. I would expect a d2 the win in that case just from my experience of being beaten downwind by dinghies running square in those conditions.

Power the raceboard up a few knots and the tables will turn.

This weekend racing against Rsx on my Phantom in 15 -18knts I could run as deep and fast as one of the guys on an rsx but one of the girls ran so much deeper that she repeatedly flogged me downwind. We put it down to power to weight ratio I was using the same size sail as her but about 30 kilos heavier.

Thanks cammd, that sounds like what I'd expect. I was just wondering where the crossover would likely be? (You know, at what wind strengthish the tables would turn.) Also is there a light wind range for the raceboard in which it's faster to go square?



p.s. Why are there so many morons in the world? (Not the start of a bad joke.) edit: also referring to the deleted post!

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saltyheaven said..

D2 vs Raceboard on a dead downwinder. D2 running square and Raceboard tacking downwind.

We had a race at Deviot Sailing Club last weekend, I took out the D2 with a 8.0 non cammed sail. (See Tasmania thread). It was very light (5-8 knots), and first run was about 2.5 nm dead downwind and running with a very slight tide. On the downwind run the D2 got there first, a 505 was close behind and Equipe with 8.5 cammed sail next. (Fleet of 15 or so mixed craft). D2 straight downwind, equipe straight downwind, 505 tacking downwind with spinnaker and jib. I am keen to get the D2 out more in a variety of conditions to see how it rates against other boards and boats generally.

Clarence

Cool! Thanks Clarence. Let us know any more comparisons you manage.

I'm keen to get it out with another sailor on a raceboard (IMCO or equipe) with different rigs and sailors to see how it compares in various winds and points of sail. It gets up on the plane beautifully. I have even managed a few carving gybes on it. Never would have thought.

Clarence

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clarence said..
I'm keen to get it out with another sailor on a raceboard (IMCO or equipe) with different rigs and sailors to see how it compares in various winds and points of sail. It gets up on the plane beautifully. I have even managed a few carving gybes on it. Never would have thought.

Yeah, for sure. Well one thing is certain, D2's go upwind like water flowing downhill. I know it's a grey area, but I'm not totally sure I call what a D2 usually does 'planing'. Will have to look into the definition of that.

Is that photo in the river leading to Launceston? I've been up that river in a boat but don't remember any wide bits... (It was a while ago and I was hanging over the front seizing the cable to big anchor so could have missed it.)

If it is not "planing" it is pretty darn close. Once it can be carve gybed, I think it is even closer.

It is definitely not "planning" though.

Yes, this is on the Tamar River at Deviot, about 35km N of Launceston. The Deviot Sailing Club have been very accommodating of windsurfers, and we hope to do more racing there. It is about getting some momentum, interest and numbers. Have a look at the Windsurfing Tasmania facebook page (which I manage) for more photos.

Clarence

help please with Mistral board

Looking at a Mistral Equipe.
Can't work out which model it is;
Dimensions are

380cm x 70cm
250lt
says Equipe LCS on the board, white to yellow fade.

so which model is it, 1.5 or 2. It definitely doesn't have the 1 step tail.

I would like to buy this to go to the raceboard worlds with this board



, is there likely to be a class??

The equipe is class legal for the worlds.
The organising committee may award a prize for older board designs but this will depend on entries.

So I've just scored a Crit 600 long board complete except for the bottom of the mast base - the unit joint and the part that goes into the board are currently missing. The previous owner is going to have a look through the shed for it, but if it can't be found is there something else which can be used in its place?

Were these boards any good? It has foot straps which our old Dufour Wing didn't have. I'm assuming I can use a later mast and newer sails providing a complete mast base is found.

I forgot how much these old boards weight. Lifting this thing back onto the car having sailed is going to be a challenge.

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tonymatta said..
The equipe is class legal for the worlds.
The organising committee may award a prize for older board designs but this will depend on entries.

Thanks, purchased & also found a EQ2 last night!

Well don with locating a EQ2.
We need one over here in the west for AUS65, if you come across another.
Other wise he will just have to keep on with his beat up OD.

My RB are back. The OD has foot straps waiting for fixing on the weekend. Ive had a quick run on the Equipe and very happy with it. Im lousy tho!

Bic Bamba 244l, Mistral OD 235l & Mistral Equipe 258l.

Amazingly all parts work well. I had the decks redone on both Mistrals and they came out real nice. Thanks Adam @ MOB. Great grip and not too hard on the soles.

Ive heard that there is an Equipe in Perth for sale if anyone is interested, I might be able to help direct you.

Happy light days.