Has anyone else had issues with the batton tips breaking on their koncepts? i have snapped the tip on my 7.8 7.0 and now 6.2 all within a few months all sails are 2019 all broke on the bottom cam, i have unwrapped the tape and can see there's like a plastic toothpick thing at the front suppose its an added support or something but all have broken just behind that,
before i get lynched lol i always reverse derig and release the cams not just let the downhaul off and let them jump off,
has anyone else had these breakages? or is it just me...im running the old 100% ka sdms which i have found to have more shape down below and i run 0 outhaul so just wondering if the deeper draught and lack of outhaul is allowing to much 'knuckle' and after time fatiguing them.....anyone else had breakages??

Do you let downhaul off with boom on or off? I had some old North sails that broke battens there regularly. Then I realised, the weight of the sail was on the knuckle when the boom was off. With the boom on, it takes the weight and I stopped snapping battens.
I use koncepts, and have had the odd breakage, but that is usually through stacks. But Waricle complains about snapping battens on his larger Koncepts. 6.6 is my biggest, so maybe it's a size thing. I don't remember seeing that tooth pick thing on any of my battens though. That could be making a weak point where it ends. I'd be tempted to do away with it and see what happens

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decrepit said..
Do you let downhaul off with boom on or off? I had some old North sails that broke battens there regularly. Then I realised, the weight of the sail was on the knuckle when the boom was off. With the boom on, it takes the weight and I stopped snapping battens.
I use koncepts, and have had the odd breakage, but that is usually through stacks. But Waricle complains about snapping battens on his larger Koncepts. 6.6 is my biggest, so maybe it's a size thing. I don't remember seeing that tooth pick thing on any of my battens though. That could be making a weak point where it ends. I'd be tempted to do away with it and see what happens

Always derig with the boom on also they all broke on the water during sailing, the odd breakage isn't a problem but 3 sails same place in as many months It's difficult not to be annoyed, the 7.0 gets 90% of use but not used the 6.2 and 7.8 that much really hence I was looking more at what I was doing rarther than a defect.I dunno it's strange sounds like I'm not the only one breaking them, perhaps martin or Andrew might shed some light on the toothpick

If the batton sleeve has enough room, you could reinforce the area that is breaking with fiberglass and resin.

Never seen a plastic toothpick like that on any batten? more than likely the cause of the breakages.

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choco said..
Never seen a plastic toothpick like that on any batten? more than likely the cause of the breakages.

Strange isn't it, never broken any before so never really seen the tips.it sits on top of the batton and is covered by tape after the 3rd one I thought I would take a closer look, all 3 have broken just behind it gonna have to have a word with Peter on it

Also that looks like flat carbon all the way.
I'll pull a batten out of my retired 6.2 and check, but I'm fairly sure all mine have a carbon tube that ends in a tapered fibreglass rod.
You may have a very non standard set up, could the factory have run out of proper battens??????

Yes I've broken a few, sometimes unrigging sometimes I've have no idea. It sounds like not enough downhaul when sailing as you describe a very knuckled front end and no outhaul. Yes a few of my 2019 had the "toothpicks in the batten.

We have seen a fair amount of broken battens here at the repair loft.
This from most sail brands out there.

I think as mentioned above there is a few factors involved.
Rigging / de rigging correctly
When water starting , then don't push hard onto just one batten a the front
Sail designed with deep forward draft, get more 'wear'
SDM ( especially older / thicker SDM ) might 'force'even more knuckle / shape into the front and more stress on the batten tips
Thickness of taper tip section ( if it is to thin , then more likely to break )

Above all ( this is entirely my own view ), looks like the quality of some battens is less good than what it used to be.
Some of the breaks and section the fiberglass, we see here looks 'very dry'.

Make sure to have quite even rotation pressure on the cambers ( use spacers / or remove spacers )
Top camber normally flicks around with a little less pressure.

3 bottom ( or 2 bottom ones ) should have quite even pressure.
Also if one batten tip is already broken and you don't realize, then it is much more likely one of the other tips will break

By the way from the top picture: is that little rod batten really sitting taped onto the tip of the normal taper batten on one side?
That do seam pretty odd,,

Jesper

Toothpick, looks like solid fibre glass rod most likely used to stiffen up the end of the batten but having the end blunt like that is just going to create a stress point on the batten underneath.

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decrepit said..
Also that looks like flat carbon all the way.
I'll pull a batten out of my retired 6.2 and check, but I'm fairly sure all mine have a carbon tube that ends in a tapered fibreglass rod.
You may have a very non standard set up, could the factory have run out of proper battens??????

Hi man don't worry about pulling one out the pic is just the last few inches, yes it does start flat into rod into tube

Col and sailrepair I agree I think the little rod is helping but obvious stress point where it ends, also when I flex the end it sounds a bit crunchy and when bent it looks like all the UD carbon is delaminating.looks a bit like a paint brush..I'm not an expert on fatigued carbon whever prolonged flexing causes this but don't see it on my carbon fins and think it's valid to say it's a bit dry in the layup,
been running koncepts since 2008 and not broke one before so might pull a couple more out to see what state there in

yes I have had a similar problem in my 6.6 Koncept 2019, all 3 battens broke at the entry point to the cams, I have replaced mine with some old batten tips out of a wave sail. The batten has a separate piece that was thin and wrapped in tape that fitted into the cam, this was fitted to the main batten section via the normal plastic fitting and secure with a brass pin. A friend of mine has a 6.2 Koncept 2019 and the construction is the same, and I think my older 7.5 Koncept is the same or similar also but I have had no breakages with this one. I used to let the cams pop of when de-rigging but I no longer do that and I pop the cams off using the reverse technique to rigging. I know of 2 other sailors that have had the same issue with the battens breaking at the entry point to the cams, so yes I think care when de-rigging is very wise. Photo of one batten tip with crack

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Haggar said..
yes I have had a similar problem in my 6.6 Koncept 2019, all 3 battens broke at the entry point to the cams, I have replaced mine with some old batten tips out of a wave sail. The batten has a separate piece that was thin and wrapped in tape that fitted into the cam, this was fitted to the main batten section via the normal plastic fitting and secure with a brass pin. A friend of mine has a 6.2 Koncept 2019 and the construction is the same, and I think my older 7.5 Koncept is the same or similar also but I have had no breakages with this one. I used to let the cams pop of when de-rigging but I no longer do that and I pop the cams off using the reverse technique to rigging. I know of 2 other sailors that have had the same issue with the battens breaking at the entry point to the cams, so yes I think care when de-rigging is very wise. Photo of one batten tip with crack

That's it exactly the same place.the tip looks wider because of the 'toothpick' that's taped to it, I wonder if it could be supported more? That said that would in effect stiffen it up and change the entry shape of the sail.gonna have a closer look later when I get in

at least it's not just me lol

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Haggar said..
yes I have had a similar problem in my 6.6 Koncept 2019, all 3 battens broke at the entry point to the cams, I have replaced mine with some old batten tips out of a wave sail. The batten has a separate piece that was thin and wrapped in tape that fitted into the cam, this was fitted to the main batten section via the normal plastic fitting and secure with a brass pin. A friend of mine has a 6.2 Koncept 2019 and the construction is the same, and I think my older 7.5 Koncept is the same or similar also but I have had no breakages with this one. I used to let the cams pop of when de-rigging but I no longer do that and I pop the cams off using the reverse technique to rigging. I know of 2 other sailors that have had the same issue with the battens breaking at the entry point to the cams, so yes I think care when de-rigging is very wise. Photo of one batten tip with crack

It's true, and he's used all my spare battens fixing them!

If I remember correctly, that batten tip construction was unique to the 2019 sails. I broke a couple of those tips in that model and replaced them with earlier model tip sections I had as spares, and that solved it. To clarify, I replaced the front tapered rod section from the tube and joiner forward and I don't remember having any more problems.

In my experience, the stiffness of the batten tip inside the luff pocket has negligible effect on the rigged sail shape, although the shape of the taper from the tube section to that point can have some effect. The stiffness of the bottom section of the mast, the amount of downhaul and the type of mast (SDM v's RDM) has a far larger effect. The shape is much more locked in by the cut of the sail (seam shaping) when under full tension.

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eastcoast said..
Has anyone else had issues with the batton tips breaking on their koncepts? i have snapped the tip on my 7.8 7.0 and now 6.2 all within a few months all sails are 2019 all broke on the bottom cam, i have unwrapped the tape and can see there's like a plastic toothpick thing at the front suppose its an added support or something but all have broken just behind that,
before i get lynched lol i always reverse derig and release the cams not just let the downhaul off and let them jump off,
has anyone else had these breakages? or is it just me...im running the old 100% ka sdms which i have found to have more shape down below and i run 0 outhaul so just wondering if the deeper draught and lack of outhaul is allowing to much 'knuckle' and after time fatiguing them.....anyone else had breakages??

Looks like a really dumb/cheap way of stiffening up the end of the batten. No surprise it broke there

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sailquik said..
If I remember correctly, that batten tip construction was unique to the 2019 sails. I broke a couple of those tips in that model and replaced them with earlier model tip sections I had as spares, and that solved it. To clarify, I replaced the front tapered rod section from the tube and joiner forward and I don't remember having any more problems.

In my experience, the stiffness of the batten tip inside the luff pocket has negligible effect on the rigged sail shape, although the shape of the taper from the tube section to that point can have some effect. The stiffness of the bottom section of the mast, the amount of downhaul and the type of mast (SDM v's RDM) has a far larger effect. The shape is much more locked in by the cut of the sail (seam shaping) when under full tension.

Ok nice one il have a word with Peter see if the newer ones have changed..already done the 7.8 pretty sure that was exactly the same, not been in long hopefully it lasts

I've got 2016 and 2018 Koncepts and no probs yet, though I'm very careful how I derig my Koncepts after recently hearing from Waricle, Sailquick and Slowboat that there have been some batten issues. When derigging I extend the boom and flatten the sail to the max then pop lower cams off easily after downhaul is released a bit, with more release to get the tighter top cam off, though might just check to see if my Koncept battens look anything like the ones that others have broken!