So I reckon I'm not too bad at planing at speed, can point upwind (or down). I have surprised myself by using 105 liter board as well as an 88 liter. Coming from a 122 liter Kode, I was surprised that I felt at ease on these small boards. I use cheap very used wave sails ranging from 4.7 to 6.2.

The problem is, I kept getting overtaken! I'd be planing at what I reckon is full speed, all locked in the harness and straps, dropping down into the harness line, head down and looking upwind, front leg mostly straighter than back legs, rig raked back and well sheeted in. Then there'd be the all too familiar sound of a board slapping on the chop coming up behind me, and another sailor on the same heading coming straight pass me as though I was standing still.

What could I be doing wrong? Is it the equipment I have? Or should I go for a bigger sail? (as point of reference I was on a 5.85 on Friday afternoon and Saturday morning at Melville - 15-20 knots)

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GrumpySmurf said..

So I reckon I'm not too bad at planing at speed, can point upwind (or down). I have surprised myself by using 105 liter board as well as an 88 liter. Coming from a 122 liter Kode, I was surprised that I felt at ease on these small boards. I use cheap very used wave sails ranging from 4.7 to 6.2.

The problem is, I kept getting overtaken! I'd be planing at what I reckon is full speed, all locked in the harness and straps, dropping down into the harness line, head down and looking upwind, front leg mostly straighter than back legs, rig raked back and well sheeted in. Then there'd be the all too familiar sound of a board slapping on the chop coming up behind me, and another sailor on the same heading coming straight pass me as though I was standing still.

What could I be doing wrong? Is it the equipment I have? Or should I go for a bigger sail? (as point of reference I was on a 5.85 on Friday afternoon and Saturday morning at Melville - 15-20 knots)

Don't you hate that? There will always be someone faster than you..

Grumpy I was using a 7.8m on Saturday on a 131 l board and those guys with the red sails were passing me on a regular basis.
I did have a few runs where I passed a few guys and left them in my wake only to stuff up my gybe or face plant it when there was a gust.
Another guy I was talking to had an 8m and another had a 7.9.
Sometimes you feel overpowered but the bigger sail gets you through the lulls

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GrumpySmurf said..
front leg mostly straighter than back legs, rig raked back and well sheeted in.

Depends to what degree.... very bent back leg and straight front = weight too far back. Loading the fin laterally can be good, downwards pressure on tail bad.

"well" sheeted in could mean oversheeted? Likewise with raked back.

Of course wave sails will never be as fast as race sails

Don't underestimate the advantage a good fin will give you.

Most likely they are sailing a full on slalom setup and you are on freeride or wave gear by what you said, I wouldn be to worried.

If speed is your thing more power is what you need.
I was sailing a 7.8 ( 4 cam) on a 120L slalom on Friday with an upright slalom 42cm fin. I weigh appx 75kg.
The wind was gusty and the big gear allows you to keep powering through the lulls.
Wave sails are designed to depower quickly on the wave and so do not perform so well in gusty conditions.
However, be careful as once you start to upgrade it is a slippery slope.
Talk to one of the guys with a GPS strapped to their arm and they will be able to talk your ear off about the tech details and what to look for.

The other alternative is to head out on the ocean and enjoy gybing and sailing on cruisy wave gear.

On wave sails don't expect much speed unless fully powered up and sailing deep off the wind. As you sail more into the wind a wave sails performance drops drastically in comparison to a race sail. I tried a Kode once and wow,compared to a slalom board of similar size was slow. You are welcome to try my slalom setup at Melville anytime. Smaller sails are generally faster but overall slower if that makes sense.

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Jman said..

Most likely they are sailing a full on slalom setup and you are on freeride or wave gear by what you said, I wouldn be to worried.

By the way you sound like you are going great for only 6 months sailing!

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sboardcrazy said..

Jman said..

Most likely they are sailing a full on slalom setup and you are on freeride or wave gear by what you said, I wouldn be to worried.

By the way you sound like you are going great for only 6 months sailing!

Sorry I was reading the post in the NSW section where the guy had only been at it for 6 months and got you confused.

..... and dont forget that time on the water is king. There are those handful of sailors that are fast on ANY kit.

I know the feeling, no matter how fast I think I'm going there's always this guy on a Mistral board blasting past me

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Sorry I was reading the post in the NSW section where the guy had only been at it for 6 months and got you confused.

Haha! No worries I read his post as well and is jealous.

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Mark _australia said..

GrumpySmurf said..
front leg mostly straighter than back legs, rig raked back and well sheeted in.

Depends to what degree.... very bent back leg and straight front = weight too far back. Loading the fin laterally can be good, downwards pressure on tail bad.

"well" sheeted in could mean oversheeted? Likewise with raked back.

Of course wave sails will never be as fast as race sails

I just read Guy Cribb's sheet (www.guycribb.com/userfiles/documents/EarlyPlaning.pdf) which says NOT to rake the sail back - at all. So will try that next time.

Speed depends on a combination of things
- right board size and sail for the wind and water conditions
- board design, slalom = fast, wave = slow
- sail design: cam race = fast, no cam recreation sail = slow
- technique: optimum position on board and trim = fast, sub optimum = slow
Maximise your technique for the gear you've got and buy some go fast gear if you want to go faster.

It is more than likely wave gear vs slalom gear. You're on a mountain bike and they are on racers. Simple as that.

Personally I sail FreeStyleWave gear that is somewhere in-between. Easier to sail and rig and jump and gybe and stuff. I might get some GPS slalom gear once I've nailed some forwards (be forewarned).

The trick to going fast, me thinks, is to be light.
Once you're up and planing nicely, 3rd gear, you want to start being slippery and smooth.

1. Don't oversheet the rig; let the sail get pulled along rather than pushed. You'll feel it. The rig will actually rake back by itself. You can squeeeeze a little for bursts of speed where you want.

2. You also want the board to glide over any chop, as flat as possible, without crashing through any waves. You'll feel them slow you down. This is where your weight in the harness comes into play. You can kinda float over the rough bits.

Note that slalom gear includes large, upright fins that they can really push hard against for extra traction. It's a significant advantage on any angle to the wind.

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evlPanda said..

...
The trick to going fast, me thinks, is to be light.
...

... like Antoine Albeau?

It's possible you are not holding the board flat (side to side). You often see newbies sail like that.
When the board is canted it's trying to carve in the direction of it's low rail.
You can sail straight like that by counteracting the carving tendency with rig steering but it's very inefficient.
First hold the board flat and then trim the rig to suit that.

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evlPanda said..

Personally I sail FreeStyleWave gear that is somewhere in-between. Easier to sail and rig and jump and gybe and stuff. I might get some GPS slalom gear once I've nailed some forwards (be forewarned).

Heh - as has been mentioned in the looping thread, flat-water loops are a good way to start... which makes looping a slalom board, the easiest to learn on... ie: fast in light winds helps getting air-time off small chop, usually light-weight boards, smaller sail needed for a given wind speed (due to fast-planing), etc.

Next time you hear slap slap behind you turn down wind look for flat spots shoot down the swells give the bloke trying to pass you some dirty wake make it hard for him.

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NotWal said..

evlPanda said..

...
The trick to going fast, me thinks, is to be light.
...

... like Antoine Albeau?

Figuratively speaking "light" - don't wrestle.

All my issues are PEBBAB

Problem exists between boom and board

A related question - would it work at all if I were to get a CAM sail (like a Maui TR4 or TR6) on my boards? (Kode 122 l or Universal Wave 88 l).

For me cammed sails mattered more when overpowered, wave sails get pretty hard to control when out of their range. The CAMs hold the shape and stop it shaking you (like a dog with a rat was how I remembered the wave sails in high wind - I'm the rat).

Some boards (and fin combos) just seem to have a top speed, I started GPS sailing with a Kombat (predecessor to the Kode) and it really struggled to get over 30 knots, once it did get to 31 it was a really weird feeling, like it had gone into the next gear. Very noticable so I hardly had to check the GPS to know it had happened. But it never went much faster than that. Got slalom and speed boards and now its 35 knots Im struggling to go faster than, they dont seem to have that "step". I also have one sail that just seems to never go faster than a certain amount (Ezzy infinity), comfortable and easy to sail but just seems to stop around the 30 knot mark.

Of course all of this could be the sailor (as Elmo said PEBBAB) and the mental effort to go for it on shallow flat water is another thing altogether.

One other thing that always makes me shift up a gear and get a bit more out of whatever Im sailing is that sound you are talking about, the slap of someone overtaking always squeezes a bit more out

You can also try working upwind where there isnt anyone else, that way you dont know if your faster or slower

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hardpole said..

For me cammed sails mattered more when overpowered, wave sails get pretty hard to control when out of their range. The CAMs hold the shape and stop it shaking you (like a dog with a rat was how I remembered the wave sails in high wind - I'm the rat).

Some boards (and fin combos) just seem to have a top speed, I started GPS sailing with a Kombat (predecessor to the Kode) and it really struggled to get over 30 knots, once it did get to 31 it was a really weird feeling, like it had gone into the next gear. Very noticable so I hardly had to check the GPS to know it had happened. But it never went much faster than that. Got slalom and speed boards and now its 35 knots Im struggling to go faster than, they dont seem to have that "step". I also have one sail that just seems to never go faster than a certain amount (Ezzy infinity), comfortable and easy to sail but just seems to stop around the 30 knot mark.

Of course all of this could be the sailor (as Elmo said PEBBAB) and the mental effort to go for it on shallow flat water is another thing altogether.

One other thing that always makes me shift up a gear and get a bit more out of whatever Im sailing is that sound you are talking about, the slap of someone overtaking always squeezes a bit more out

You can also try working upwind where there isnt anyone else, that way you dont know if your faster or slower

Thats' what i used to do but now Im doing GPS I need to sail where the others sail..

Try simple things one at a time.
Go for four straps and start moving them back.
Star raising boom height and committing to harness.
Close the gap.
Lift with front foot, flatten board with back foot.
Then start moving mast base back.

Of course cam sails and decent fins make all the above easier.