I know the forum loves these topics, hence the amount of innocent threads hijacked by the likes of Gestalt and Chris249 (sorry to lump you both together).

Anyway, had a random shower idea: Why doesn't the industry produce some gear and distribute it to shops/clubs out of their marketting budget or at cost price. That is supply it at cost+distribution if its used in a rental model, or possibly the gear remains property of the manufacturer. Basically everyone involved to be incentivized to use the equipment to attract new participants to try the sport. Anyone thats worked with products knows that the production cost is at most 25% of the RRP. Lets imagine that this gear is an inflatable board, say dual purpose as a 10-11ft SUP, with a cheap rig (possibly that inflatable one?). Target <$400/unit. Heck if it was an inflatable rig you could probably tie/clip it to the top of the board, you wouldn't even need a universal. Tie one end of the wingding to the deck?

I could imagine say @ the SUP hire joint at Currumbin, or Cotton Tree, that on top of the SUP hire cost you could pay an extra $5-10 and get a windsurfing rig. I think you would get an order of magnitude more engagement, plenty of people would try it for the novelty factor, and even if most never try it again, you'll capture the imagination of a handful who will end up down that windsurfing rabbit hole we have all gone down. It's actually a pretty easy sport to dip your toes into as you can literally show up in swimmers and be windsurfing almost instantly with fairly little tuition. Maybe strap a paddle to the board so they have a backup way of getting back (deflate rig and paddle back).

During weekdays, offer the same rigs as part of a school sporting program. That's how I got involved in sailing when I was in primary school, sailing club sabots as part of school sport. Investment from my parents end was on the order of $5-10/ weekend session. Something like this just doesn't exist for windsurfing and I think its maybe a large market that's untapped.

It seems like most/all of the marketting by industry in windsurfing is targetted at existing windsurfers, which at my best is an aging and slowly shrinking market. Pretty much money down the drain if you ask me. They should be targetting non-windsurfers, a market which is orders of magnitudes larger. The local clubs etc, well I guess they aren't large enough to do any real marketting, but again, they are mainly targetting existing windsurfers, I don't know if any have any programs targetted towards attracting new participants, but possibly with some industry assistance this could change.

I'd be happy to volunteer (and so would many parents) for say a program that targetting school kids who are gonna be stoked to be sailing around on the water. Ask me to sit in the race boat for a bunch of grumpy overcompetitive old slalom sailors who have no interest in sitting in the race boat themselves? No thanks.

Efforts like the LT are interesting, but ultimately how does it attract new participants to the sport? how are you going to convince someone to spend $1500 or whatever it is to try a sport they've never tried before? People can pay $20 to hire a sup for an hour, or a ****ty rotomolded kayak, most may never do it again, but a few will. By and large this opportunity simply doesn't exist for windsurfing. You can justify the cost of windsurfing as no more expensive then any other high end sport, but most of those sports have easy cheap entry options, or at least have a larger critical mass of participants behind them.

The prompt for this is that I've had a few friends who tell me they want to try windsurfing, but honestly I'm a little lost as to how to best introduce them to the sport. I can throw them on my sup (it has a M8 sail attachment point), or possible borrow a friends learner board, but with busy lives etc, opportunities are rare when everyones schedule lines up so often times it just doesn't happen. And it relies on me personally having happen to have some gear thats learner suitable. And just lending the gear won't work, usually they don't have roof racks, and probably would struggle to rig a sail. However if they had the option to hire one for $30 or even better free they would have tried it already! Heck I tried indoor rock-climbing the other day, and it cost almost $40!

Also before foiling, I usually only went windsurfing in >15kts, generally conditions when most other people don't want to be at the beach. Now with foiling I go a lot more often in 10kts, which probably will mean more opportunities to chuck the SUP on the roof, and rig a small sail for friends to try.

Maybe this is just an Australian centric thing, as we are so spread out and its so hard to get the critical mass going for windsurfing? Whats it like in Europe.

Keen for everyone to tell me how I'm wrong and how this has been tried before, the business case is crap and failed or how they have better ideas

p.s. I'm aware of the RQYS learn to windsurf program.

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swoosh said..
I know the forum loves these topics, hence the amount of innocent threads hijacked by the likes of Gestalt and Chris249 (sorry to lump you both together).

Anyway, had a random shower idea: Why doesn't the industry produce some gear and distribute it to shops/clubs out of their marketting budget or at cost price. That is supply it at cost+distribution if its used in a rental model, or possibly the gear remains property of the manufacturer. Basically everyone involved to be incentivized to use the equipment to attract new participants to try the sport. Anyone thats worked with products knows that the production cost is at most 25% of the RRP. Lets imagine that this gear is an inflatable board, say dual purpose as a 10-11ft SUP, with a cheap rig (possibly that inflatable one?). Target 15kts, generally conditions when most other people don't want to be at the beach. Now with foiling I go a lot more often in 10kts, which probably will mean more opportunities to chuck the SUP on the roof, and rig a small sail for friends to try.

Maybe this is just an Australian centric thing, as we are so spread out and its so hard to get the critical mass going for windsurfing? Whats it like in Europe.

Keen for everyone to tell me how I'm wrong and how this has been tried before, the business case is crap and failed or how they have better ideas

p.s. I'm aware of the RQYS learn to windsurf program.

Great idea. you should give it a crack. i agree school is the place to focus.

From my own experience the industry ie. manufacturers and shops have done a lot to help over the years with gear to get people on the water. i'm talking 10's of thousands of dollars in gear and financial support.

On the west coast the south west windsurfing school looks to be above par. they have become a testing ground for gear for kids and get direct support from starboard, severne and patrick.

what you don't see is the back ground effort. the manufacturers and shops are always keen to help if the idea is solid. The amount of work required to get the idea running is large.

Well I'm not a windsurfing equipment manufacturer for 1. And to be honest it doesn't personally benefit me at all for there to be more windsurfers... If anything there might be even less carparks available close to the water, and I'd say the chance of windsurfing gear becoming cheaper if it was successful is buckleys.

Ive actually lent a complete beginners rig out for free for a few months to a local kid until eventually someone purchased it off me. And would be happy to do it again. I have no idea their circumstances but I don't think they would have had the opportunity if I hadn't have lent the gear.

Maybe there just isn't a viable business case for my idea? If they are spending a bunch of money, I don't see any evidence of it from where I'm sitting so maybe their marketing has missed me. I even googled a bunch of related terms to try/learn windsurfing and I couldn't really see anything that would have appealed to my friends.

I guess the core point is that I think the industry should be targetting an entry price of say $10-20 session for kids as a school activity and $20-30/session for everyone else as something that appeals to people everyday as an impulse purchase/activity that can be done whilst at a beach/park/river/lake that's suitable. Even if the gear is super low performance.

Heck most of the SUP hire places the gear is total garbage and every second person is holding the paddle backwards and falling constantly. But they are still having fun which is the important thing.

i once introduced a thing called the gear library. idea being people share their old gear for use by newbs...

I work in education at just about the best location a school could have, both for it's views but also proximity to several perfect wind dependant windsurfing spots. Best of all it is a state high school in a pretty low socio-economic area, the kids don't have much.
Unfortunately it is near impossible to get any water based program off the ground. Add the absolute necessity to have relevant insurance, accredited instructors, working with children checks for any outside staff, rescue boat, willing internal staff, and the big one, motivated participants, it becomes a case of why bother.
Trust me I've thought long and hard about how I can introduce Windsurfing to our school program and can't find a way despite having a fantastically motivated principle.
The only way I can see getting kids into the sport is run the risk of running the programs outside of school hours, on the sly so to speak or on weekends through existing accredited/insured/compliant sailing clubs.

Pre-Covid, our local sailors would hold an annual free "Try Out Windsurfing" weekend afternoon. Some had collected big boards through time, long boards, stuff used just for this event. They would advertise for the event and it always seemed to be a hit.

The experience of a Melbourne windsurfing school of 30 yrs was...... no new members to the sport in all those years of doing it.
Here after 4 or so years of running come n try days..hugely successful and a lot of work. 3 new sailors and only 1 still sailing. We need to perhaps target a different age bracket not youth cos it just isn't working

Going to have another crack at bringing in some more juniors and youth because we had some good success in the past and still have a group of them sailing.

see the below thread I just posted

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Queensland/Junior-Windsurfing-Squad

Having learned windsurfing in college, where they also rented gear for a couple of bucks per hour after the initial class, I can definitely see the value of the "shower ideas".

I happened to see the prices that a quite popular foil company is charging schools and rental places, and they were amazingly low - probably at cost. Only issues were that the minimum order was large (like 10 complete foils), and that orders needed to be placed in the fall for next spring/summer delivery.

There was an article in a recent Surf magazine about how some of the excitement the switch to foiling has created for youth windsurfing in Germany. Apparently, youth windsurfing used to be strongly linked to competition and windsurfing/sailing clubs, but the switch to RS:X pretty much killed it, since no sane person would ride an RS:X for fun. That even removed some motivation to play in the youth Techno class. But with the foil being in Olympics now, the youth program is starting up again. They have hired somebody to work fulltime coordinating things like training trainers and organizing events, and getting clubs on board.

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Gestalt said..
i once introduced a thing called the gear library. idea being people share their old gear for use by newbs...

I guess my thought is its odd that the industry relies on generous customers to bring in new customers. Surely the industry should make an investment to grow the sport. Perhaps my investment idea wouldn't work, or they are working in other areas that I don't see.

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Ant-man said..
I work in education at just about the best location a school could have, both for it's views but also proximity to several perfect wind dependant windsurfing spots. Best of all it is a state high school in a pretty low socio-economic area, the kids don't have much.
Unfortunately it is near impossible to get any water based program off the ground. Add the absolute necessity to have relevant insurance, accredited instructors, working with children checks for any outside staff, rescue boat, willing internal staff, and the big one, motivated participants, it becomes a case of why bother.
Trust me I've thought long and hard about how I can introduce Windsurfing to our school program and can't find a way despite having a fantastically motivated principle.
The only way I can see getting kids into the sport is run the risk of running the programs outside of school hours, on the sly so to speak or on weekends through existing accredited/insured/compliant sailing clubs.

I think this is where the industry should support clubs with subsidized gear to help them get a program up and running. For example not sure how much help the RQYS guys get from the manufacturers? hopefully a bit, because any growth in the sport benefits the manufacturers.

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kato said..
The experience of a Melbourne windsurfing school of 30 yrs was...... no new members to the sport in all those years of doing it.
Here after 4 or so years of running come n try days..hugely successful and a lot of work. 3 new sailors and only 1 still sailing. We need to perhaps target a different age bracket not youth cos it just isn't working

Were other sailing classes more successful? i.e. is sailing in general just not interesting to kids? I honestly see a lot of bored looking kids in sailing. My fond memories are sailing a sabot in maybe 15kts and turtling the thing after a capsize.

For me, I sailed sabots in primary school, then stopped sailing once I got too old for them I think because access to the higher classes were maybe more expensive or not as easy back then? And then got into windsurfing after I finished high school. But the seed was planted in my head from those early Sabot years and I still have fond memories of sailing them.

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boardsurfr said..
Having learned windsurfing in college, where they also rented gear for a couple of bucks per hour after the initial class, I can definitely see the value of the "shower ideas".

I happened to see the prices that a quite popular foil company is charging schools and rental places, and they were amazingly low - probably at cost. Only issues were that the minimum order was large (like 10 complete foils), and that orders needed to be placed in the fall for next spring/summer delivery.

There was an article in a recent Surf magazine about how some of the excitement the switch to foiling has created for youth windsurfing in Germany. Apparently, youth windsurfing used to be strongly linked to competition and windsurfing/sailing clubs, but the switch to RS:X pretty much killed it, since no sane person would ride an RS:X for fun. That even removed some motivation to play in the youth Techno class. But with the foil being in Olympics now, the youth program is starting up again. They have hired somebody to work fulltime coordinating things like training trainers and organizing events, and getting clubs on board.

Would be good if windsurfing could ride the foiling wave. It seems that foiling definitely piques the interest of the general public more than windsurfing does. Maybe partly because I'm now on the water in <15kt days when more people in the general public are around, where as previously sailing in 15kts+ meant that most people were not going to be at the beach.

For me the interest would be more in growing it as a recreational activity rather than the racing side. I think telling every kid they can become an Olympian maybe wouldn't be my approach, its more just showing people that here's a way you can be active and have fun.

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JonnyWindsurf said..
Pre-Covid, our local sailors would hold an annual free "Try Out Windsurfing" weekend afternoon. Some had collected big boards through time, long boards, stuff used just for this event. They would advertise for the event and it always seemed to be a hit.

My club used to do this yearly. The amount of new members that stuck with it? Surprisingly low. Funny thing, we got better retention when we charged a modest amount ($15-20). When it's free, people just don't get emotionally invested in it.

From an article on Cognitive Dissonance
"The theory inspired more than 3,000 experiments that have transformed psychologists' understanding of how the human mind works. One of Aronson's most famous experiments showed that people who had to go through an unpleasant, embarrassing process in order to be admitted to a discussion group (designed to consist of boring, pompous participants) later reported liking that group far better than those who were allowed to join after putting in little or no effort. "

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kato said..
The experience of a Melbourne windsurfing school of 30 yrs was...... no new members to the sport in all those years of doing it.
Here after 4 or so years of running come n try days..hugely successful and a lot of work. 3 new sailors and only 1 still sailing. We need to perhaps target a different age bracket not youth cos it just isn't working

There is a very good windsurfing school in the US, 45 min from a major metropolitan area, warm most of the year. They do a really good job having taught most of my family. The windsurfing community around there? About as moribund as anywhere else. Mostly middle aged and retirees. I absolutely do not fault the school. Contrast that to the crap hole of a windsurfing location where I live - still reasonably active and stable the past couple of decades. (Foiling has been a big boost in the last three years.)

I've pondered long and hard about this like everyone else in the thread. One thing I've noted where windsurfing still seems to persist is that there is some sense of community. We certainly do better when we reach out to newbies, mentor them and engage them. I think mentorship strongly outweighs clinics and free days in effectiveness. I think that's reflected in some people's experiences here where they've set up programs, etc - it's the mentorship and personal connection rather than the "program" that is the magic sauce.

Back to Swoosh's point - we do struggle to find affordable beginner gear for people to try. I've driven hours to grab some gear that I think could help someone locally. That has worked less well than I imagined. We just don't have the critical mass of windsurfers where there's enough beginner gear available.

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kato said..
The experience of a Melbourne windsurfing school of 30 yrs was...... no new members to the sport in all those years of doing it.
Here after 4 or so years of running come n try days..hugely successful and a lot of work. 3 new sailors and only 1 still sailing. We need to perhaps target a different age bracket not youth cos it just isn't working

There's such a big hurdle getting to first base in windsurfing that giving them a go on free gear won't work. Maybe sell them a Commitment Coupon for say $800. They can then use your club's gear for free for as long as it takes. You nominate a suitable course and say 20 knots of wind. When they can get around that in 20 minutes they can cash in the Commitment coupon and get $800 back.

The fastest way to get people to try windsurfing is to get them to try kitesurfing first!

It's not all about youth. I started windsurfing at age 43. Been totally addicted ever since. Used gear is cheap and easy to get. Biggest thing holding young people back is transport to the windsurfing spot. Surfers can take their board and ride their bike to the beach. Windsurfers need cars or dedicated parents...

LOL when I post pics of kids learning to windsurf you Retards and a stalker laugh at them !!

The industry in Hood River has a history of supporting the various schools and clubs in pretty much most of the western USA, especially northwestern. They have sold at deep discounts, or donated gear to these groups, the only "string attached" is that they get a mention in the publicity that these groups generate. It has been a good system. It ebbs and flows, of course, with the various tides of interest and involvement.

Otherwise, as mentioned above, if we all can handle it, we should all get a big wide teaching board and a couple small and light sails and offer to "teach" friends and acquaintances.

It helps a lot if we smile and show a lot of enthusiasm for our sport. Also, nothing wrong with getting some training about teaching, such as the WIPA program.

Surely it is the responsibility of windsurfing parents to get their children into it.
And idon't buy them an iPhone untill they can forward loop.

Addiction! First impressions are lasting impressions. No one (except masochists) is going to be attracted to a sport that requires you to slog along, fall in, and do countless uphauls until you are nearly drowned. We did it and gained the rewards, however, it would be better to make the first experiences very addictive. I am thinking that an improved tandem design might be the go. Many people get the thrill of skydiving simply because they do a tandem jump. Apply this thinking to windsurfing and we might just attract a few more who will want to make the effort, knowing that the rewards are much greater than what they first thought.

Turn the internet off ? might work .

Agree with swoosh. Windsurfing companies shall try to advertise better. Not my business to provide free equipment and lessons. I advertise by looking good while doing it. Lol. and explaining things to people who approach and ask. I also see some threads that windsurfing is dying etc..

I kite and windsurf. I also live half a block from a huge public beach where I windsurf which gets completely packed in the summer. Lifeguards are ok with me windsurfing here. I can only imagine if some beginner and intermediate guys started popping up. Windsurfing would have been banned on the beach right away.

I know selfish, but the less the better. :)

My only advice is.....

When they do give it a go, make sure its with the right equipment, its warm and safe.

Equipment these days for beginners is great but they shouldn't struggle with it.
Make sure they are on a lake or a calm day in the ocean.
Make sure you are there to give them guidance and proper tuition.

Once they have done a few runs they'll be hooked......

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Madge said..
My only advice is.....

When they do give it a go, make sure its with the right equipment, its warm and safe.

Equipment these days for beginners is great but they shouldn't struggle with it.
Make sure they are on a lake or a calm day in the ocean.
Make sure you are there to give them guidance and proper tuition.

Once they have done a few runs they'll be hooked......

Good advice but what will it take to get them to try in the first place?

Hopefully when it warms up and they dont mind falling in as its a good way to cool off....

A lot of interesting ideas, opinions and stories, keep it coming guys.

My main point is that I have friends who are interested, but if I didn't happen to have gear suitable for a learner, I don't know of any easy way of giving them a taste of windsurfing.

Have been listening to some Windsurfing TV podscasts which are super interesting, it doesn't seem like the sport overall is doing too bad (particularly Europe it still seems super popular), but definitely over here it does seem like we don't quite have the critical mass to be able to do a really good job finding/supporting new participants.

It would definitely take a major coordinated effort at all levels between manufacturers, importers, retailers, clubs etc, which is probably pretty difficult to do considering past efforts may not have born fruit, and its a small industry with fairly narrow margins, so there isn't a huge amount of money around to do it, particularly not in our small corner of the market.

I didn't read your full post as I can't concentrate that long, but what got me into windsurfing was my brothers mate jumping over me while I was swimming. Thought it was nuts and wanted to do the same. Ever since I've been burning through the flags and jumping crew.

hmmm wonder if people would mind if I did that with a foil...

I'm thinking of another thread that's got the topless or naked chicks from the 70 /80 & I'm thinking if we had something like that as instructors a hell of a lot more blokes would be interested

I left the sport a couple years ago. A large challenge for me to windsurfing, is transporting the kit to your favorite spot. It's a big commitment to have the vehicle and storage where as kiting is much more compact (which is where most go). Bring convenience to the thought process. I'd love to head to Invy and pay membership + hire charges for gear designed for an intermediate sailor . I'm not interested in using old kit (longboards) or beginner gear. Happy to pack up and leave the water stoked and not having to worry about carting the gear home.

And what about damage?
Track day motorcycle riders know all about this if they've ever hired a bike...

Have a 'standard' agreed price list the customer signs and acknowledges prior to taking the kit. If it's damaged.. there's the price and it's already off the credit card.

I'd be there every available weekend if it was there and I'm certain a lot of ex windsurfers would be the same.

Today, a passer-by stopped and asked me a question about windsurfing. He asked me how we learned to sail as we do. There a no coaches or schools offering tuition that he knew of. Therefore, the whole idea of getting into the sport was a big problem because he did not think he had the ability to learn by experience. I suppose that there would be others out there thinking the same thing.

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echunda said..
I left the sport a couple years ago. A large challenge for me to windsurfing, is transporting the kit to your favorite spot. It's a big commitment to have the vehicle and storage where as kiting is much more compact (which is where most go). Bring convenience to the thought process. I'd love to head to Invy and pay membership + hire charges for gear designed for an intermediate sailor . I'm not interested in using old kit (longboards) or beginner gear. Happy to pack up and leave the water stoked and not having to worry about carting the gear home.

And what about damage?
Track day motorcycle riders know all about this if they've ever hired a bike...

Have a 'standard' agreed price list the customer signs and acknowledges prior to taking the kit. If it's damaged.. there's the price and it's already off the credit card.

I'd be there every available weekend if it was there and I'm certain a lot of ex windsurfers would be the same.

Looking at some Maui rental places, rental cost is around USD70 a day, so at the very best case hire cost would be AUD100/day. And Maui is super high turnover and probably lower costs than most of Australia. Would you pay $100/day? And that's before needing the gear to be delivered to wherever you want to sail etc. Realistically considering utilization rates would be much lower, Australia tax etc, it wouldn't be surprising really to see $150 /day for short term daily rate.

Even just to hire a cheap $400 foamie surfboard at the beach is usually around the $40-50/day. A foamie is an order of magnitude cheaper than a half decent freeride setup.

I don't think many sports, some much bigger than windsurfing have really solved this problem.

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MarkSSC said..
Today, a passer-by stopped and asked me a question about windsurfing. He asked me how we learned to sail as we do. There a no coaches or schools offering tuition that he knew of. Therefore, the whole idea of getting into the sport was a big problem because he did not think he had the ability to learn by experience. I suppose that there would be others out there thinking the same thing.

This is exactly my point where I think the industry needs to invest if they want to grow the sport. That said, can understand if people with the numbers have run them and found that the return just isn't there for such a niche sport.