It wasn't a real windy day, but we were planing. Only ten or so windsurfers, and may be seven kiters. The entire ocean was at our disposal, to share, to enjoy, safely.

As I was surfing down a wave, obviously I was looking ahead. Then out of the corner of my eyes, I saw a kiter sneaking up on me, from behind. He was pushing upwind, just below the wave where I was riding! I would guess within a wave length?

Faced with two options. (1). To cut him in half, or (2). To warn him about the collision.

I chose the second and yelled out for his attention. He bear off. Being a smart ass, he was giving me hand signals of all kinds, obviously pissed off by the fact that I yelled at him. Or could it be that he was upset for the fact that a collision was avoided ?

I am not anti-kiters by any means. As I had posted previously, a lady kiter rescued my detached board, at the expense of her enjoyment for that session. So I am always grateful for that. However, I thought one doesn't have to leave good sense behind while out on the water ?

Turn it up... You are only telling 1 half of this story...

You were lucky to get away with hand signals buddy..

If we applied the sailing rules and/or Colregs for two sailing craft coming together on the same tack, then it sounds like you could be in the wrong.

Windward boat (sailboard, kite, whatever) must keep clear.

define riding surfing down a wave...? Was this in the break at a waveriding spot?

Then Jfunk, no, not if he is overtaking... overtaking vessel must keep clear when passing.

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Jfunk said...
If we applied the sailing rules and/or Colregs for two sailing craft coming together on the same tack, then it sounds like you could be in the wrong.

Windward boat (sailboard, kite, whatever) must keep clear.

What he said.

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Mark _australia said..
define riding surfing down a wave...? Was this in the break at a waveriding spot?

Then Jfunk, no, not if he is overtaking... overtaking vessel must keep clear when passing.

+1 that Mark

Yachting Australia Rules 2013-2016
Right of Way
ON THE SAME TACK....BOATS OVERLAPPED : a windward boat shall keep clear of a leeward boat
ON THE SAME TACK...BOATS NOT OVERLAPPED : a boat clear astern shall keep clear of a boat clear ahead

and from most, if not all, boating authorities : an overtaking boat shall keep clear of the boat being overtaken.

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RPM said...
Turn it up... You are only telling 1 half of this story...

You were lucky to get away with hand signals buddy..

So tell us the other side of the story! I'd be interested in hearing it RPM

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RPM said..
Turn it up... You are only telling 1 half of this story...

You were lucky to get away with hand signals buddy..

RPM, I don't need to turn it up, buddy. I bet that idiot who tried to overtake me from behind, from my blind spot, will definitely turn it right up if I didn't yelled at him first ! He will be screaming in pain, a hell of a lot too. And may I please ask what I am likely to get if I am unlucky enough?

But no. I don't see the point in hurting someone, even though I am not at fault.

By the way, is there another half of the story to be told? As I described: Some kiter came from behind, pushing upwind, overtook me, and came close enough for me to run straight into him if I am to maintain my course.

That isn't the whole story either..

How about you start again buddy.

Mark

In the story it sounded like he was heading straight to the shore or bearing away into a bottom turn. That means if you draw a perpendicular line off the stern of his board, anyone to leeward on that wave would be overlapped. So I figured no overtaking was occurring.

Of course, if they are both riding the same wave, we could then apply surfing rules.........however, in the courts COLREGS would apply, but you are right if no overlap, overtaking boat keeps clear.

If desiring to abide by the COLREGS, the following is relevant:

a) whether it was a crossing or overtaking situation

CROSSING (COLREGS Rule 12):
".... when each has the wind on a different side, the vessel which has the wind on the port side shall keep out of the way of the other;
.... when both have the wind on the same side, the vessel which is to windward shall keep out of the way of the vessel which is to leeward;"

OVERTAKING (COLREGS Rule 13):
"... any vessel overtaking any other shall keep out of the way of the vessel being overtaken.
... A vessel shall be deemed to be overtaking when coming up with another vessel from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft her beam"

So if they were "sneaking up" from a direction more than 22.5 degrees abaft the beam Rule 13 would seem to apply as they would be overtaking and should give way. Otherwise, Rule 12 applies with the windward vessel keeping out of the way (assuming both on the same tack).

b) the nature of the shouting and hand gesticulations made by each party

SIGNALS (COLREGS Rule 36):
"Signals to attract attention . If necessary to attract the attention of another vessel any vessel may make light or sound signals ... in such a way as not to embarrass any vessel.... For the purpose of this Rule the use of high intensity intermittent or revolving lights, such as strobe lights, shall be avoided."

This is interesting, so you must be careful about signals you make to each other. "I chose the second and yelled out for his attention. He bear off. Being a smart ass, he was giving me hand signals of all kinds, obviously pissed off by the fact that I yelled at him".

Seems to imply a level of embarrassment and possible violation of Rule 36!

I would think, though, that it would be nice to keep well clear of the one making best use of the wave and let them enjoy it, isn't that the point of playing in the waves?

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RPM said...
That isn't the whole story either..

How about you start again buddy.

If you are unable to give your side of the situation, STOP being a troll

It reads like you dropped in and the kiter got justifiably mad at you for doing so.

Although it's hard to picture the situation. Was it onshore/offshore? Going left or right? etc. If you're going down a wave and the kiter is behind you how are you even going to collide?

Thus why I asked what he means by going down a wave.........

Nice use of thus.

^^^ pondered the use of 'ergot'

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evlPanda said..
It reads like you dropped in and the kiter got justifiably mad at you for doing so.

Although it's hard to picture the situation. Was it onshore/offshore? Going left or right? etc. If you're going down a wave and the kiter is behind you how are you even going to collide?

To answer all of the above questions...

I was heading back to the beach. Wind was behind me, and I was on the top of a wave, gaining speed as I head towards the trough. As anyone would know, you always look ahead, in front of the sail. I doubt anyone would constantly checking for someone coming from behind and sneak up on you, right below the wave I was on, and gaining speed.

By the way, EvilPanda,
(1). Cross on-shore wind.
(2). I was heading back to the beach
(3). I was going right side of me, of course
(4). He overtook me from behind, as I stated earlier.

Anyway, rules and arguments are all good, but quite futile in an event of a collision. But why worry when people are riding shopping trolleys on streets ?

RPM buddy...nice try. What is your opinion on all these? Do you have any but troll ?

^ Thus you chose correcty then.

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Mark _australia said..
^^^ pondered the use of 'ergot'

whenever I hear the word ergot I think of The Matrix

Why can't we just get along! Blks its never going to happen! 80 percent show ponies, look at me wanna be rock star,what rules and little ocean knolage and taken over the worlds oceans, seas and water ways like the black plague The other 20 percent i can handle .Whats the solution! Sail like they are not there explore off the radar areas where they have not been because its not on the web!Watch out, the season is getting in to full swing for swooping out of control kiters like a mad magpie. Keep your lines out of my line.Breeze it buzz it easy does it stay cool.

Jupiter were you wavesailing?
No insult intended, but it sounds like you were blasting, he wanted to ride the wave and was positioning himself to be at a peak .... it is was a bit onshore he would be riding hard upwind on that wave.
Based on the info you provided I am leaning towards the kiter here.

Antman good to see you back. Word.

Just curious, can someone please explain the logic of the craft to windward have to give way to the leeward craft in an overlap situation. It seems to be more of a racing rule intended to force the windward craft more upwind to the point where it is luffing and stalled in irons enabling the leeward craft to sneak under. It doesn't seem to involve a safety aspect?

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Mark _australia said..
Jupiter were you wavesailing?
No insult intended, but it sounds like you were blasting, he wanted to ride the wave and was positioning himself to be at a peak .... it is was a bit onshore he would be riding hard upwind on that wave.
Based on the info you provided I am leaning towards the kiter here.

Antman good to see you back. Word.

Mark_Oztraya,

No problem with your honest and fair opinion at all. I appreciate that. I was on a wave heading back to the beach, but not riding a wave. Yes, he was pushing hard upwind just behind and was a wave beneath of where I was heading, ie. back to the beach.

Please note that regardless of who is on the right or wrong, or who knows the rules best, I always believe that it is the most sensible thing to avoid creating a collision, whether it is between windsurfers or kiters. As far as I am concerned, I do not have eyes on my back, hence I can't see someone sneaking up on me from behind. Further more, by getting so close right on the path of my intended course back to the beach, was shear madness.

As you probably knew, when you are on a wave, you travel so much faster on the gradient. The only way to avoid a full-on collision is to bail out, or like I did, yelled at him. Apparently, it wasn't appreciated. His attempt to get a good wave was more important than his personal safety, and potentially mine !

Again, question being asked quite frequently, why the heck did a kiter wander into the windsurfing area in the first place ?

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Mark _australia said..
^^^ pondered the use of 'ergot'

Damn, I thought that was a hallucinogenic fungus...

I am now confused - he was on a wave closer to the beach or behind you?

Of course, yes avoid collisions! We all agree there

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Mistral Nick said...
Just curious, can someone please explain the logic of the craft to windward have to give way to the leeward craft in an overlap situation. It seems to be more of a racing rule intended to force the windward craft more upwind to the point where it is luffing and stalled in irons enabling the leeward craft to sneak under. It doesn't seem to involve a safety aspect?

It's a rule from back in the days when sail was the only method of powering a boat forward.

The leeward vessel is sheltered from the wind by the windward vessel and as such loses speed and and thus, manouverabilty, hence it is given right of way over the well powered windward vessel. It's in the col regs, and is still very legitimate to yachts, whether they are racing or not.

With the kite up high, and 50m away from the windsurfers sail, it's not really in the same situation as a yacht, rules are rules though. The powers that be don't differentiate between our unique situation, and the rest of the wind powered vessels out there.

Reminds me of a incident in Pinaroo a while back. Kiter was heading back to shore, carving upwind then launching into a massive air floating downwind and landing 20m from the beach. It was impressive and he was training this move so had done about 10-15 jumps continuously at same locations each time.

Windsurfer who had been around sailing for awhile in the upwind area . decides to sail from behind and parallel downwind of the kiter straight back to the beach, with difference in speed, windsurfer ended up in the kiters landing zone and got the shock of his life when kiter dropped from the sky.

Difference of opinion ensued about who was right and kiter got a bloody nose. However it was totally the windsurfer fault regardless of sailing rules as he was aware of what the kiter had been practicing continuously and where he was practicing but proceeded to sail downwind close to the kiter and of course ended up in the landing zone. Kiter had not seen him when he started his run and only saw him after commencing jump.

Rules are rules but common sense and sharing of space is priority. just because you have right of way doesn't mean you can ignorant or be awkward to whats happening around you.
Its a big ocean and lots of beach space. I'm not commenting on who was right in this thread incident as was not there, but just making a point about sharing and awareness rather than ruling.

Situational awareness. 1) What is around you, 2) what is happening and 3) anticipating what is going to happen

Some are aware, some are not, some wish to poke it to see if it bites

What ever....

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peguin said..
Reminds me of a incident in Pinaroo a while back. Kiter was heading back to shore, carving upwind then launching into a massive air floating downwind and landing 20m from the beach. It was impressive and he was training this move so had done about 10-15 jumps continuously at same locations each time.

Windsurfer who had been around sailing for awhile in the upwind area . decides to sail from behind and parallel downwind of the kiter straight back to the beach, with difference in speed, windsurfer ended up in the kiters landing zone and got the shock of his life when kiter dropped from the sky.

Difference of opinion ensued about who was right and kiter got a bloody nose. However it was totally the windsurfer fault regardless of sailing rules as he was aware of what the kiter had been practicing continuously and where he was practicing but proceeded to sail downwind close to the kiter and of course ended up in the landing zone. Kiter had not seen him when he started his run and only saw him after commencing jump.

Rules are rules but common sense and sharing of space is priority. just because you have right of way doesn't mean you can ignorant or be awkward to whats happening around you.
Its a big ocean and lots of beach space. I'm not commenting on who was right in this thread incident as was not there, but just making a point about sharing and awareness rather than ruling.

All very true

Flip side is kiter chose to practice his move right near the beach - in the gybe zone for everybody.
He could have done it 100m out........... but they don't want to do that do they.....