WRONG !!!!
NOT more downhaul, unless you sail a 8.5 in 25 knots.
Your WEIGHT bends the mast, unlike a 220 lbs'er.
My old bud was 275 lbs and sailed faster than Roddy Lewis at the old Ponds speed trials.
And 3 mph faster than Fred and Laird in '86.
Weight bends the mast.

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LeeD said..
WRONG !!!!
NOT more downhaul, unless you sail a 8.5 in 25 knots.

Umm, have you sailed a sail less than 20 years old?

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LeeD said..
WRONG !!!!
NOT more downhaul, unless you sail a 8.5 in 25 knots.
Your WEIGHT bends the mast, unlike a 220 lbs'er.
My old bud was 275 lbs and sailed faster than Roddy Lewis at the old Ponds speed trials.
And 3 mph faster than Fred and Laird in '86.
Weight bends the mast.

I'm no expert but those sails on pictures definitely need more downhaul, not about weight but sail technology, if you are heavy then you can rig a bigger sail with correct downhaul.

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philn said..
Umm, have you sailed a sail less than 20 years old?

2019-1986=33 years :)

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EddieWeeks said..
Here is my 8.0

This is the only sail I got in the straps and was stable until I hit a lul.

Is this a decent modern sail.. its a 2016 model... Thanks again

Eddie

I made the mistake of rigging the Titan like that once. Big mistake, I had to drop out of the race because the sail became completely unmanageable when the wind picked up. The PWA pro at the event, Josh Angulo, commented "More downhaul" .. and that was before the wind increased. The while line between the monofilm and the darker upper panels gives an idea how loose the sail should be.

A few years later, another PWA pro used my NP V8 for longboard racing. He wanted more power, so what did he do? Loosened the outhaul so it was a few cm negative. He did not tough the downhaul, the top panels were floppy.

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LeeD said..
WRONG !!!!
NOT more downhaul, unless you sail a 8.5 in 25 knots.
Your WEIGHT bends the mast, unlike a 220 lbs'er.
My old bud was 275 lbs and sailed faster than Roddy Lewis at the old Ponds speed trials.
And 3 mph faster than Fred and Laird in '86.
Weight bends the mast.

Downhaul is not about bending the mast.
If the sail has the wrong amount, bodyweight will have nothing to do with it- it will still be the wrong amount.

Wow. So wrong ....

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Mark _australia said..>>>>>>>>
Downhaul is not about bending the mast.
If the sail has the wrong amount, bodyweight will have nothing to do with it- it will still be the wrong amount.

Wow. So wrong ....

Yep, weight, load bends the mast at 90deg to downhaul and tightens the leach, almost the opposite effect of downhaul.

You guys are FOOLS who downhaul the sail to spec even when the wind is too light.

The suggested downhaul is a recommendation for ideal conditions with an AVERAGE sailor.
250+ lbs is not "average" sailor or conditions.
Don't be blind or stupid!
Why do you think a pro freestyler can use a 5 meter sail in 12-20 mph winds when YOU need a 6.5!
They use LESS downhaul than recommended!
Why do you think a 195lbs freestyler can use a 4.2 sail to foil in 12-20 on Inf 76 when you are happy on a 6 meter sail fully downhauled?
Don't be blind to alternatives!
25 years ago, you never downhauled enough.
Now, you need giant sails because you never TUNE your sails, you only rig them ONE way..max downhaul!

Hey LeeD, down boy, down boy.

Since virtually none of us are pros, if we use the correct-bend and correct-IMCS mast, and downhaul our sails to something close to spec, we will get pretty good results in sail performance. We can tweak from there.

Pretty much all modern free-ride and race-oriented sails need to be downhauled to where the leech is loose-ish in at least the top two panels. There are lots of reasons for this. Dynamic twisting in gusts, dynamic return to shape, stability of the draft center of lift, huge wind range, on and on. The sailmakers have figured this out.

Yes, the reason pro freestylers use under-downhauled small sails is that it is a heckuva lot easier to do crazy freestyle moves with a 5.0 than with a 7.0.

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LeeD said..
You guys are FOOLS who downhaul the sail to spec even when the wind is too light.

The suggested downhaul is a recommendation for ideal conditions with an AVERAGE sailor.
250+ lbs is not "average" sailor or conditions.
Don't be blind or stupid!
Why do you think a pro freestyler can use a 5 meter sail in 12-20 mph winds when YOU need a 6.5!
They use LESS downhaul than recommended!
Why do you think a 195lbs freestyler can use a 4.2 sail to foil in 12-20 on Inf 76 when you are happy on a 6 meter sail fully downhauled?
Don't be blind to alternatives!
25 years ago, you never downhauled enough.
Now, you need giant sails because you never TUNE your sails, you only rig them ONE way..max downhaul!

You have no right to call majority "fool" or "stupid" . You need to calm down and TUNE yourself.

You are correct to a point.
The point ends when anyone catagorically states that every sail needs recommended downhaul every session for every sailor.
A 250 lbs'er needs different choice and tuning from a 110 lbs rider.
A powered up rider needs different choice and tuning from an underpowered rider.
And same rider using the same sail needs different tuning depending on wind, waterstate, and preferences.
ONE tuning doesn't work for all conditions.

You're completely wrong Lee
The freestyle sail is a completely different sail designed with bottom end power and to be light manoueverable

Bigger people will use a different sized sail to the others that day, but the downhaul will still be in spec. Perhaps a 1" difference.

The pic of that titan is missing about 6" of downhaul. Don't tell the guy who is new to modern gear its OK as he is 225lb, that is simply incorrect. A sail rigged wrong is a sail rigged wrong, no matter if you are 100lb or 250lb.

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LeeD said..
You are correct to a point.
The point ends when anyone catagorically states that every sail needs recommended downhaul every session for every sailor.
A 250 lbs'er needs different choice and tuning from a 110 lbs rider.
A powered up rider needs different choice and tuning from an underpowered rider.
And same rider using the same sail needs different tuning depending on wind, waterstate, and preferences.
ONE tuning doesn't work for all conditions.

Just no. A 250 lbs (+110kg) and 110 lbs (50kg) are using *completely different* gear.... there is no tuning to adjust for that.

For some perspective, i rigged my favourite sail the other day, it had been a while and i couldnt quite remember exactly where i usually put the downhaul.

The leech was plenty floppy, and i thought i had the right spot. After 2 runs i could feel the sail was well and truly all over the place.

It wasn't even a cm of difference for it to be in the right spot again.

if I remember, the Maui Sails Titan is a 2 or 3 camber sail with a narrow luff sleeve
I had an MS2 before that was a 2 camber freerace Maui Sails
I busted the battens because I did not have enough downhaul.
was trying to do old longboard sail tuning = NOTTA !!
as someone mentioned - PLEASE rig downhaul close to specifications with visible loose leech
play with outhaul for the size of the wind pocket in your sail

i was about 105 kilos and used a 10 meter sail on a longboard in 20+ kph winds = about 10 knots
the 8.5 served well in 20-40 kph winds on the longboard and larger freerides like JP SLW92

now at about 95 kilos and on the Fanatic Shark 145 with an HSM SpeedFreak 8.5 using supplied 50 cm fin I can RIP in 20-40 kph

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LeeD said..
WRONG !!!!
NOT more downhaul, unless you sail a 8.5 in 25 knots.
Your WEIGHT bends the mast, unlike a 220 lbs'er.
My old bud was 275 lbs and sailed faster than Roddy Lewis at the old Ponds speed trials.
And 3 mph faster than Fred and Laird in '86.
Weight bends the mast.

Wrong !!!! Not wrong!!!! New sails do not set well without lots of downhaul, ****loads in fact! I personally don't like the optics of the big floppy leach, my brain does not compute why you need all that sail if its spilling wind constantly but I do recognise it works and it works well. Even in big boat sailing the sails are cut with massive full heads which are set spilled off. Yes body weight will bend a mast but that has nothing to do with ideal settings.

Getting back to the original question, and in particular your concern about your weight, no you are not too heavy. Take a look at this guy as an example - very famous UK sailor, very big boy, sails small gear & freestyles like a ballet dancer, sails big gear & speed sails like a gorilla!
www.windsurf.co.uk/featured/whitey-10-0/2/

Almost all the guys going for out and out speed (on flat water) wear lead lots of it 20KG is not unusual , and in spite of what some people on here are claiming rig big cambered sails on small boards with small fins with massive amounts of downhaul. Weight is an advantage and mast bend etc etc due to weight does not seem to slow them up!

Freestyle riders sail medium sized boards with small fins with the smallest simplest sails that they can to get them plaining for short bursts.

Slalom type riders sail as big a sail as they can hold on to riding medium sized boards with as big a fin as they need to stop spin out on chop.

Freeride riders (90% of us if we are honest) ride forgiving yet reasonably high performance sails on slightly bigger boards that are slightly more user friendly (up haul?) with biggish fins (maybe more raked for gybing help).

I got rid of all my slalom type boards and cambered sails a few years ago as I found that gear awesome 10-20% of the time when things clicked, good wind, flat water, consistency etc etc. However most days we sail the wind backs and veers go's up or down by 5-10 knots and the water is choppy or small waves. I was hating sailing except for that 10-20% of the time, now Im smiling every sail. Yes guys pass me by going faster but I also sloggers past them in the water waiting for the gusts, or at the gybe where I've bogged round in a lull when they are in the drink etc etc!

Its not your size nor your ability its gear selection, only my opinion, but you have selected good gear for your size and locations, now you just need to rig it as recommended to get used to it before you tweek it , and get out there as much as possible.

Modern stance is different to 30 years ago and if I work out the exact subtlety of it Ill let you know!

Remember what they say- advise is unforgivable!

Im sure it was Bjorn Dunkerbunkerfunker that's said "A bad sailed rigged good is better than a good sail rigged bad"

^^^ also a big fella and best in the world for 13yrs.
Never seen him sail with heaps less downhaul than the sail specifies just as he's big !!!Same sail, rigged right, just a larger sail...

I'm guessing Lee is faster than Bjorn though.

Am I a leper , am I the only one that rigs to visual cues ?
If I rigged any of my many sails to what they print on the package , I would be all over the place on more than half of them. That's with perfectly matched modern gear .
If your purely relying on the figures only it may or may not be perfect .
If your slightly out with different years and brands and think it should be close you have no hope of setting it correctly.
If you set only to figures you don't see what's happening .
If you set to visual cues you have the best chance of rigging even badly matched rigs.
All my sails have a corrected mast extension size textered on the sail. That's leaving about 4 cm pulley gap when medium rigged.
If the wind picked up I got a couple more to pull down , or go the other way.
I have mainly used NP and North and the figures weren't that great .
Outhaul can also be way off .
Once the downhaul is correct , out haul starts at no slack with fingers in the eyelet slightly tight , plus or minus a cm or two at most .
Possibly I'm a little anal .

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Imax1 said..
Am I a leper , am I the only one that rigs to visual cues ?
If I rigged any of my many sails to what they print on the package , I would be all over the place on more than half of them. That's with perfectly matched modern gear .
If your purely relying on the figures only it may or may not be perfect .
If your slightly out with different years and brands and think it should be close you have no hope of setting it correctly.
If you set only to figures you don't see what's happening .
If you set to visual cues you have the best chance of rigging even badly matched rigs.
All my sails have a corrected mast extension size textered on the sail. That's leaving about 4 cm pulley gap when medium rigged.
If the wind picked up I got a couple more to pull down , or go the other way.
I have mainly used NP and North and the figures weren't that great .
Outhaul can also be way off .
Once the downhaul is correct , out haul starts at no slack with fingers in the eyelet slightly tight , plus or minus a cm or two at most .
Possibly I'm a little anal .

Also use feel cues. The numbers on the sail are a start point, then go out and sail it. See how it feels.

If it feels twitchy/unstable power and you're constantly on your toes, more downhaul. If it feels choked/heavy with no power let downhaul off a bit. When you find the sweet spot, memorise/record it. Thats the downhaul setting for that sail. Outhaul, play as you go.

Foiling with a twin cam freeride sail is the only time i've felt gain in altering downhaul to suit conditions, but its different wind angles to normal windsurfing.

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peterowensbabs said..
Getting back to the original question, and in particular your concern about your weight, no you are not too heavy. Take a look at this guy as an example - very famous UK sailor, very big boy, sails small gear & freestyles like a ballet dancer, sails big gear & speed sails like a gorilla!
www.windsurf.co.uk/featured/whitey-10-0/2/

OK... I feel better about things now... Once the wind starts to blow in oct I will get the big sail, crank the downhaul
and go get it.

I just watch the DefiWind race on Youtube... the guy that won, was pulling his equipment out of the water
and the leech was super loose. I can't believe how floppy it was.... and he just beat f**ing everyone. !!!!

Thanks again for the advice as there are only 2-3 of around here.

BTW... was going to buy a new fin but it was like $160US... I am making a few fins now... something around 45 cm

Eddie

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EddieWeeks said..

peterowensbabs said..
Getting back to the original question, and in particular your concern about your weight, no you are not too heavy. Take a look at this guy as an example - very famous UK sailor, very big boy, sails small gear & freestyles like a ballet dancer, sails big gear & speed sails like a gorilla!
www.windsurf.co.uk/featured/whitey-10-0/2/

OK... I feel better about things now... Once the wind starts to blow in oct I will get the big sail, crank the downhaul
and go get it.

I just watch the DefiWind race on Youtube... the guy that won, was pulling his equipment out of the water
and the leech was super loose. I can't believe how floppy it was.... and he just beat f**ing everyone. !!!!

Thanks again for the advice as there are only 2-3 of around here.

BTW... was going to buy a new fin but it was like $160US... I am making a few fins now... something around 45 cm

Eddie

There you go you you just mentioned them....your in trouble now!!!! ....fins .....now watch the arguments and discussions start!!!!! If you thought people were passionate and hot under the collar about rigs wait for this debate!!!

Eddie,
Those cambered race sails you saw on youtube have different profiles than freeride, freestlyle or wave sails. Don't know what model ezzy you have, but there are some instructional rigging videos available on his website.
www.ezzy.com/rig-support/all-years-ezzy-sails-2/
I've had great success using the sail maker's recommended settings.

Good luck with the can o' fin worms you just opened!

OK I'm game to start it.

Not that I've any experience with upright fins, 99% of the time I use weedies. My experience with them is that they need to be very stiff, but I think with uprights it's not so critical. A bit of twist can depower them in the gusts and a bit of flex can give some vertical lift. This can be good if you want to get the tail up, but can be bad if the lift is behind the centre of balance and you want to go fast. (lift behind the centre of balance pushes the nose down increasing wetted area.) I prefer a 9% thickness to chord ratio foil, seems a good compromise between downwind speed and pointing ability.

You can adjust the flex and twist characteristics with the direction on the fibres and whether you use glass or carbon in the layup.

I'm using a timber core with multiple layers of carbon on top, they come out stiff and light.

Mark, your reference of Bjorn doesn't support your case.
Bjorn rigs the biggest sails, and deals with overpowering conditions, unlike post #1.
Underpowered, you'd loosen the out haul and lessen downhaul.
Add a 250+ lbs sailor on a heavy freeride board with thin tail and short tail flats....you'd need MORE power.

This is interesting..

Pic below if from 1992, south Padre Island.

I am on the left... My friend and I were similar weight, similar boards, fins ect...

My 5.0 was just always faster than my friend on the right... Also he would
get overpowered and slam the water upwind before I would. At the time
I just assumed I was better. But now look at the sail and how much
twist or washout as I call it, has. The leach is not loose but it looks a lot better than sail on the right..

Eddie

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LeeD said..
Mark, your reference of Bjorn doesn't support your case.
Bjorn rigs the biggest sails, and deals with overpowering conditions, unlike post #1.
Underpowered, you'd loosen the out haul and lessen downhaul.
Add a 250+ lbs sailor on a heavy freeride board with thin tail and short tail flats....you'd need MORE power.

Bjorn case is valid

Bjorn say 230 lbs using 7.0 race sail super floppy, bigger dude say 260lbs use next size up sail 7.8 super floppy

I went sailing last week with my big brother (around 82 kgs) he was using 6.2 rigged with plenty of downhaul, I was using 6.2 as well same amount of downhaul - however I'm 95kgs and I can tell you I would not use a "modern" sail (any sail from the mid 90's +) without the loose leech (unless the sail is specifically designed to rig without a lose leech)

- If I was underpowered I would use a bigger sail rigged correctly......

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LeeD said..
Mark, your reference of Bjorn doesn't support your case.
Bjorn rigs the biggest sails, and deals with overpowering conditions, unlike post #1.
Underpowered, you'd loosen the out haul and lessen downhaul.
Add a 250+ lbs sailor on a heavy freeride board with thin tail and short tail flats....you'd need MORE power.

More power but completely unstable. Not enough downhaul causes the power to shift back and forward, sail will get twitchy. Rendering the 'extra power' effectively useless.

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LeeD said..
Mark, your reference of Bjorn doesn't support your case.
Bjorn rigs the biggest sails, and deals with overpowering conditions, unlike post #1.
Underpowered, you'd loosen the out haul and lessen downhaul.
Add a 250+ lbs sailor on a heavy freeride board with thin tail and short tail flats....you'd need MORE power.

NO

He would never use a sail rigged like that Titan pic.

Nobody would.....

Underpowered conditions, yes you let off some downhaul but within spec (like let off about 1/2" downhaul ). Eg you are planing in 20kn on your 7m then wind drops to averaging 18kn you may let off some downhaul
But if you are 50lb heavier than everyone else you do not choose a 7m just like them and have a totally tight leech. Duh.

I repeat that Titan has about 6" too little downhaul. It will be a pig to handle.

That is why we have different size sails - tuning accounts for a few knots (mph) of wind speed but no more.

Big guys do not sail with same size and a tight leech, they use a bigger sail then everyone else- rigged correctly.

I think you did not look at the pics and read the thread and now you're backpeddaling- as no proficient sailor of many years experience would say that pic of the Titan is rigged right for a heavy guy.
Its not rigged right for anyone and you're setting the OP on the wrong path.

Here's a link to the rigging video for the titan gsx. I have a 9.0 and rig it exactly to specs. Make sure you measure the downhaul from top of mast extension pulleys to bottom of sail pulleys. Your 8.0 should be 23cm from pulley to pulley