About how long do most people have their harness lines? I'm 5'8" (172cm) and I have a waist harness. I'm a beginner and just about to try getting into a harness. Methinks that what I have now are too short. I have a pair of Neil Pryde adjustable lines - 20" to 26". With the boom set at about shoulder height (maybe somewhere between nipple and shoulder height) and the lines adjusted to their max length there's still along way between my hook and the harness line. Any suggestions for a place to start would be muchly appreciated. If I need longer lines, does anyone out there in Seabreeze land have an old set they'd care to donate to worthy ol' vet?

Tia
Dinsdale

You and I are about the same height, booms about the same, if anything my boom is a little higher, we even use the same lines.... I on the other hand use a seat harness so my hook is lower.

When it's howling I have my lines at shortest - 20 inch , when it's not windy marginal planning I have my lines about 25inches towards longest.

It always looks like the lines are a long way from hook, don't worry to much when you are powered up and heaving back on the boom you will be surprised how close they actually gets, certainly if you are new to harness have those lines as long as possible, maybe even move them closer together , this makes them a little longer. As the wind picks up and you talent improves make them shorter inch or two at a time.

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DrJ said...

You and I are about the same height, booms about the same, if anything my boom is a little higher, we even use the same lines.... I on the other hand use a seat harness so my hook is lower.

When it's howling I have my lines at shortest - 20 inch , when it's not windy marginal planning I have my lines about 25inches towards longest.

It always looks like the lines are a long way from hook, don't worry to much when you are powered up and heaving back on the boom you will be surprised how close they actually gets, certainly if you are new to harness have those lines as long as possible, maybe even move them closer together , this makes them a little longer. As the wind picks up and you talent improves make them shorter inch or two at a time.

you're doing it entirely wrong.

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barn said...

DrJ said...

You and I are about the same height, booms about the same, if anything my boom is a little higher, we even use the same lines.... I on the other hand use a seat harness so my hook is lower.

When it's howling I have my lines at shortest - 20 inch , when it's not windy marginal planning I have my lines about 25inches towards longest.

It always looks like the lines are a long way from hook, don't worry to much when you are powered up and heaving back on the boom you will be surprised how close they actually gets, certainly if you are new to harness have those lines as long as possible, maybe even move them closer together , this makes them a little longer. As the wind picks up and you talent improves make them shorter inch or two at a time.

you're doing it entirely wrong.

Who's doing it all wrong? DrJ or me? Either way, do have any suggestions for me? Bear in mind that I'm a complete novice - not been planing yet However, I'm getting to the point where I need to relieve the pressure off my hands and arms.

Thanx
Dinsdale

I was going to say something but then I thought, f### it, they'll figure it out

Barn has very strong fixed opinions about harness line length, so interpret what he says in that light. He's also young, so is still seeing the world in black and white. Those of us with more grey hair see everything with more grey.
DrJ clearly does what works for him.

The old way to select your harness line length was simple and effective.
When attached to the boom, you should be just able to tuck you elbow into the loop with your wrist on the boom.
I tried some longer lines on the weekend, 28", and while they worked, and I could use them, I found it a constant uncomfortable stretch to the boom, and I had to put the boom up to an uncomfortable level to make them work. I'm going back to 24" lines. I'm 170cm, so unless you have gorilla arms, you won't need anything much longer.

Your boom is too low to start with, get it up higher. Shoulder to nose high is good...you will catapult more to begin with but it will be worth it in the end. Harness lines are an individual thing, just try different ones until you find what you like, but they should be hard to get into in sub planning conditions if they are not they will be too long when you get powered up. I've tried them all but have settled on Dakine 28's they are good for me, how far apart do you have them set? They should be no more then a fist apart even less on small sails, just play around and you'll find what's sweet for you.

Cheers.

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KenHo said...

Barn has very strong fixed opinions about harness line length, so interpret what he says in that light. He's also young, so is still seeing the world in black and white. Those of us with more grey hair see everything with more grey.
DrJ clearly does what works for him.

I'm also a fully qualified windsurf instructor who has spent way to much time helping people get the most out of their sailing.. But whatever.

Let him buy 20 harness lines and he can fight with them until it ruins his stance so much he can't use anything else..


Dinsdale, 26 is considered the shortest you would use (amongst circles in the know). When teaching people to get in the harness we normally go with the longest setting, normally 28.. But it sounds like your either upright and not committing your body weight to your sail (not time to hook in yet, this might because the is no wind).. Or if you can't hook in when you are fully powered you might be hanging your body to low, low is good for control, its stable and fast but you will have to raise your hips to get in the harness, longer lines will keep you further away from the sail and in more control, with freedom to adjust your body weight to keep in control..

History lesson, in the 90's people decided short lines were good, they were wrong..





A practice rig like this is a good way to go thru the motions

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dinsdale said...



Bear in mind that I'm a complete novice - not been planing yet However, I'm getting to the point where I need to relieve the pressure off my hands and arms.

Thanx
Dinsdale

Just saw this, Ok you need to get personal with whats called a super 7, standard 7, and sailing like a kook. The super 7 is great for getting on the plane and stayng in control, arms straight and front leg locked straight, while sinking on your back leg, kinda like the tug or war position.. and from here its just a matter of raising your hips and a quick pump on the sail to get you within range of the lines. If you stay committed to the rig the whole time then you will be in the correct position (not crashing).


Front leg transfers all the pull from the sail into forward speed on the board, straight arms keep your weight away from the sail, and last longer (monkeys don't hang from trees with bent arms).. 20 inch harness lines get your weight to close to the rig and give you grey hairs and make you sail like a kook


edit****
Me, with no grey hairs, I am 5'11'',run 32" and have no problem reaching the boom.. My arms are normal.. There is no reason why anyone can't reach the boom with 28" lines.

I think ken's reaction is typical of many people who dismiss longer lines without ever giving them a proper shot. Going to longer lines in my opinion won't be an instant revelation, it's something that you stick with for a few weeks and then when you somehow end up on short lines again you wonder how on earth you ever sailed in such a cramp position with such short lines.

I was using 22-24" lines for 2 years when I started sailing (i'm 172cm, average build), and when I moved to 26" lines I thought no way these are way too long, but after using them for about a month they just felt natural, plus they have a lot of benefits, biggest one for me was improved early planning, and it really helps get weight in your harness. Now I sail on 30” lines, 28”s are okay but 26” is too short.

I went to WA with a mate over summer, he broke his boom and so I lent him my spare boom with 28” lines, he didn't like it at first but after being forced to use it a few sessions he was sold.

Adjustable lines are great, and for a waist harness the lines you have will be adequate. Be aware the stated lengths of NP harness lines are not what they actually measure! I think mine (supposedly 22 - 28) actually go to 30". You will not need the longer set.

Agree your boom height needs to be higher - shoulder to chin height.

For learning to use harness lines have them adjusted long - easier to get into without luffing.

Lines need to be longer in light wind to allow you to stay hooked in but have the rig more upright to prevent luffing, and shorter in stronger wind to keep plenty of force in the harness and keep your butt above the water when you're hiked out. I used the forearm rule initially but variable according to conditions works better for me.

I use the full range of my 22 - 28" lines depending on conditions. I am 167 cm but use a seat harness.

Having your lines in the right spot on the boom is critical. The back line one third of the distance along the boom is a good rule of thumb, but I always stand up my sail on the beach and hold it by the harness line. The lines are balanced when the sail does not twist away from you in either direction. A little tweaking after a test sail on the water so you have equal pull in both arms and you're off.
Hope that's useful for you.

And when you think of it the difference between 26" and 30" lines is not that much. The line hangs in a loop so the apex is not four inches further down, It's only a maximum of two. And the attachment points are some distance apart (just a few inches for some but six - eight for others) this also reduces the drop of the apex point. It's probably only a little over a single inch difference.

Oh and you'd have to measure your lines to find out the actual length. The manufacturers don't really know themselves.

Funny how everything in windsurfing is metric except harness lines.

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barn said...

dinsdale said...



Bear in mind that I'm a complete novice - not been planing yet However, I'm getting to the point where I need to relieve the pressure off my hands and arms.

Thanx
Dinsdale

Just saw this, Ok you need to get personal with whats called a super 7, standard 7, and sailing like a kook. The super 7 is great for getting on the plane and stayng in control, arms straight and front leg locked straight, while sinking on your back leg, kinda like the tug or war position.. and from here its just a matter of raising your hips and a quick pump on the sail to get you within range of the lines. If you stay committed to the rig the whole time then you will be in the correct position (not crashing).


Front leg transfers all the pull from the sail into forward speed on the board, straight arms keep your weight away from the sail, and last longer (monkeys don't hang from trees with bent arms).. 20 inch harness lines get your weight to close to the rig and give you grey hairs and make you sail like a kook


edit****
Me, with no grey hairs, I am 5'11'',run 32" and have no problem reaching the boom.. My arms are normal.. There is no reason why anyone can't reach the boom with 28" lines.

Being a 5'6" female I'd assume my arms would be shorter so I'd need slightly shorter lines? I use 26 at the moment and could prob go a bit longer but haven't got around to buying any . I use a seat harness.

A heap of good constructive info, and plenty, I'm sure, to get me going. Barn, I've copied and saved your diagrams for future reference. Many thanx one and all.

Dinsdale

See, I did not dismiss anything. I just gave my OPINION that I didn't like the feel of them. As I said, I could use them, and they worked, but I didn't enjoy them.
I've been sailing a while, and I do OK, so while I'm not a qualified anything, I'm not a total idiot either and I have a good enough feel for my gear. It's not the first time I've used longer lines either.
I don't really like absolute statements about what gear people should use.
If you like longer lines, that's totally cool for you.
It may well be that my JP lines are longer than the stated length too, which may be confounding the issue.
Statements like "you are doing it totally wrong" are not helpful.

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swoosh said...

I think ken's reaction is typical of many people who dismiss longer lines without ever giving them a proper shot. Going to longer lines in my opinion won't be an instant revelation, it's something that you stick with for a few weeks and then when you somehow end up on short lines again you wonder how on earth you ever sailed in such a cramp position with such short lines.

I was using 22-24" lines for 2 years when I started sailing (i'm 172cm, average build), and when I moved to 26" lines I thought no way these are way too long, but after using them for about a month they just felt natural, plus they have a lot of benefits, biggest one for me was improved early planning, and it really helps get weight in your harness. Now I sail on 30” lines, 28”s are okay but 26” is too short.

I went to WA with a mate over summer, he broke his boom and so I lent him my spare boom with 28” lines, he didn't like it at first but after being forced to use it a few sessions he was sold.

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barn said...

KenHo said...

Barn has very strong fixed opinions about harness line length, so interpret what he says in that light. He's also young, so is still seeing the world in black and white. Those of us with more grey hair see everything with more grey.
DrJ clearly does what works for him.

I'm also a fully qualified windsurf instructor who has spent way to much time helping people get the most out of their sailing.. But whatever.

Let him buy 20 harness lines and he can fight with them until it ruins his stance so much he can't use anything else..

Did I say to go ultra-short ?

If I had taken every piece of advice about ski boots given to me by fully-qualified boot fitters, then I would have thrown every pair of boots I've bought in the bin instead of just the first pair. The guy that sold me those now moderates his fitting, I'm told. He cost me 2 good seasons of ski-ing while I persevered with fitting adjustments that cost me twice as much as the boots did.
After that, I took into account my own personal needs, in conjunction with their professional advice. As recently as this year, after ski-ing for over 15 years, my wife had a boot-fitter basically throw her out of the shop because she rejected a boot she could not actually even get her foot into.
So, what you may learn after a few more years of teaching, is to learn to temper your knowledge with individual needs.
Or maybe not..............

i'm pretty sure all our harness lines at the windforce school are 28" even the beginner lines
if your too close to the rig you have two problems, 1 as a beginner getting stuck in the lines and 2 when you get hit by a gust not being far enough away from the rig best case scenario here you get lifted and made quite uncomfortable worst case scenario you catapult

so 28" is a good mid range size
26" for lighter wind
30" if you want to put your boom up higher or in strong wind

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KenHo said...


Statements like "you are doing it totally wrong" are not helpful.

Yes they are.

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sboardcrazy said...


Being a 5'6" female I'd assume my arms would be shorter so I'd need slightly shorter lines? I use 26 at the moment and could prob go a bit longer but haven't got around to buying any . I use a seat harness.

Should be alright, seat harness hook is closer to you boom anyway, regardless of gender..

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barn said...

dinsdale said...



Bear in mind that I'm a complete novice - not been planing yet However, I'm getting to the point where I need to relieve the pressure off my hands and arms.

Thanx
Dinsdale

Just saw this, Ok you need to get personal with whats called a super 7, standard 7, and sailing like a kook. The super 7 is great for getting on the plane and stayng in control, arms straight and front leg locked straight, while sinking on your back leg, kinda like the tug or war position.. and from here its just a matter of raising your hips and a quick pump on the sail to get you within range of the lines. If you stay committed to the rig the whole time then you will be in the correct position (not crashing).


Front leg transfers all the pull from the sail into forward speed on the board, straight arms keep your weight away from the sail, and last longer (monkeys don't hang from trees with bent arms).. 20 inch harness lines get your weight to close to the rig and give you grey hairs and make you sail like a kook


edit****
Me, with no grey hairs, I am 5'11'',run 32" and have no problem reaching the boom.. My arms are normal.. There is no reason why anyone can't reach the boom with 28" lines.

Very good explanation. I agree with Barn.

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KenHo said...

See, I did not dismiss anything. I just gave my OPINION that I didn't like the feel of them. As I said, I could use them, and they worked, but I didn't enjoy them.
I've been sailing a while, and I do OK, so while I'm not a qualified anything, I'm not a total idiot either and I have a good enough feel for my gear. It's not the first time I've used longer lines either.
I don't really like absolute statements about what gear people should use.
If you like longer lines, that's totally cool for you.
It may well be that my JP lines are longer than the stated length too, which may be confounding the issue.
Statements like "you are doing it totally wrong" are not helpful.

I also gave an OPINION... what's the big deal?

All I'm trying to point out is that a lot of people don't give longer lines a proper shot because they feel uncomfortable the first time they use them. You old folk these days just don't have any patience, you gotta stick with these things a while!

Dinsdale go with young Barnsy, in my opinion he is 100% right

Me, I'm a worn out old bugger, 6'1", seat haness with 28" lines but going to try 30"s, I have my lines 3 fingers apart. I only sail up wind down wind in the ocean with the occasional half *rse chop hop.

I know people who sail short lines and go alright but I believe they should go longer. As for me I got talked into going from 26 to 22 once, all it did was give me golfers elbow as my elbows were always bent, went straight to 28's and my elbow slowly came good and my sailing improved.

Barnsy I don't think Ken meant to sound dismissive but agree with you, I can't see the relevance your age has to do with it. I have a young mate whose advise I always take, sometimes with a little friendly argument, but since he was 19 he has always been right

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barn said...

sboardcrazy said...


Being a 5'6" female I'd assume my arms would be shorter so I'd need slightly shorter lines? I use 26 at the moment and could prob go a bit longer but haven't got around to buying any . I use a seat harness.

Should be alright, seat harness hook is closer to you boom anyway, regardless of gender..

I thought seat harness hooks were lower than waist harness ones?

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firiebob said...


As for me I got talked into going from 26 to 22 once, all it did was give me golfers elbow as my

You must be as old as me Bob, I can remember those days also. Less than 20 was cool, but I didn't go that far. It can take a while to adjust, after years on 26s I borrowed a boom with 28s - found it almost impossible! (5'10")

When moving up in length go one boom arm at a time. Easier to tolerate and after a while you prefer the longer side. I now have one 30 amongst a bunch of 28s. I've got too many booms.

(same goes for the seat/waist harness issue)

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sboardcrazy said...

I thought seat harness hooks were lower than waist harness ones?

It's a paradox! haven't done the exact measurements, and the stance is slightly different, but hips to boom, and mid torso to boom are different lengths in the respective harnesses/stances.. worth about one inch in actual length maybe...

And yes I was also only giving my opinion, which is fixed not because of my age (I'm 24 ffs!!! same age as the Captain of Essendon) but from experience.

And while, in a absolute philosophical sense nothing is right or wrong, there is a right way to helitack and a wrong way, and its in this context that certain habits and settings can be labeled 'wrong'

Putting your left shoe on your right foot is wrong. Not moving your hand down the boom before unhooking for a gybe is wrong. Pushing out with your back hand in a helitack is wrong. Putting your front foot on 1st in a waterstart is wrong. Not scissoring the board off downwind before a forward loop is wrong.. There is no way to sugar coat it...wrongwrongwrong!!

As instructors it was always fun to watch sailors who had no prior predispositions on sailing technique progress much faster than the clients who would never listen cause they had Kens attitude. The Kens never tipped either, so we just left them in their ruts..

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barn said...
Putting your front foot on 1st in a waterstart is wrong.

There you go, I'm still learning from the young fellas, I'll go back foot next time, well actually not sure which foot I use

And Barnsy, if not trying to be funny give Ken a break, it's just not worth it for anyone

Now off to work

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Windxtasy said...

Adjustable lines are great, and for a waist harness the lines you have will be adequate.

Agree. I was told that adjustables would be good to start with to find the happy length and then go for fixed thereafter. I might still do that for strong to nuking conditions but I've found I'm happy to have the ability to reduce the length for marginal winds where I am standing more vertical therefore closer to the rig (in longboard cruise mode or get home with the shorter board when the wind drops right off), and then lengthen them when the wind picks up. This has happened often where I use the same sail (7.5) from the beginning of the session then hours later when the wind kicks in still with the same sail (over-powered).

BTW I use a waist/seat combo harness where I set the hook at belly button height, boom is around neck/chin level.

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DrJ said...

You and I are about the same height, booms about the same, if anything my boom is a little higher, we even use the same lines.... I on the other hand use a seat harness so my hook is lower.

When it's howling I have my lines at shortest - 20 inch , when it's not windy marginal planning I have my lines about 25inches towards longest.

It always looks like the lines are a long way from hook, don't worry to much when you are powered up and heaving back on the boom you will be surprised how close they actually gets, certainly if you are new to harness have those lines as long as possible, maybe even move them closer together , this makes them a little longer. As the wind picks up and you talent improves make them shorter inch or two at a time.

Don't listen to this tosser, he does not know what he us taking about, for a start he uses 22-28 vario race lines. Maxed to 28 when not much wind, between 22-24 when it's howling.

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barn said...
Pushing out with your back hand in a helitack is wrong.
Not scissoring the board off downwind before a forward loop is wrong..

Good advice, thanks for that

My attitude, bucko, is one of open-minded inclusiveness and listening to people.
Your opinions are nearly always very polarised, which I kindly attribute to our age.
If I was being unkind, I might attribute it to other causes.
It took me a long time to grow out of the black/white tendency of youth.
I have often voiced my pro-instruction attitude in many posts here. I often pay for instruction when I can get it, and make the most of my money by listening to the instructor, so painting me as a know-it-all ignoramus might be a little off base.
Good instructors listen to their students and modify their approach according to the visual and verbal feedback they get, acceoting that there will always be some individual variation.
Poor ones are like the boot fitter that threw my wife out for not being able to force her foot into the boot he insisted on for her, as he was blinded by his pre-conceptions to the evidence before his eyes.
But whatever, I'm sure you are right. No-one should ever use a harness line shorter than 30". I'm surprised they are even allowed to sell them.

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barn said...

sboardcrazy said...

I thought seat harness hooks were lower than waist harness ones?

It's a paradox! haven't done the exact measurements, and the stance is slightly different, but hips to boom, and mid torso to boom are different lengths in the respective harnesses/stances.. worth about one inch in actual length maybe...

And yes I was also only giving my opinion, which is fixed not because of my age (I'm 24 ffs!!! same age as the Captain of Essendon) but from experience.

And while, in a absolute philosophical sense nothing is right or wrong, there is a right way to helitack and a wrong way, and its in this context that certain habits and settings can be labeled 'wrong'

Putting your left shoe on your right foot is wrong. Not moving your hand down the boom before unhooking for a gybe is wrong. Pushing out with your back hand in a helitack is wrong. Putting your front foot on 1st in a waterstart is wrong. Not scissoring the board off downwind before a forward loop is wrong.. There is no way to sugar coat it...wrongwrongwrong!!

As instructors it was always fun to watch sailors who had no prior predispositions on sailing technique progress much faster than the clients who would never listen cause they had Kens attitude. The Kens never tipped either, so we just left them in their ruts..

Every one knows 26in lines are best and you all should be using them.