My gybing is still far from perfect, but in normal conditions I manage to pull off most of my gybes and if I fail one, I usually know what went wrong. However, yesterday it was a different story. I was quite a bit overpowered on a 6.0 and iSonic 63, it felt really nice and balanced on the straights, but when I tried to do the usual 'head a little downwind, unhook, move the rig a little forward and push on the leeward rail and keep sheeting in so the sail pivots you through the curve' it just didn't work. The board would rail initially, but after a little bit it would just flatten and refuse to rail any further, no matter how hard I pushed on the rail. Sheeting in wasn't quite working either as my back hand felt like someone was pulling the boom from the other side, so I just kept going downwind with the board flat and the sail wide open. I wonder if there are some tricks for overpowered gybing that I'm unaware of?

I am far from an expert, l have same problem: stop turning when downwind, i ask good sailor: reduce my fin size, it help me a lot for turning when overpowered.

Yes, there is a way to gain more control when gybing in over powered choppy conditions. Watch the following video and you will notice he lays the rig over, oversheets, and rakes it back. He is an awesome sailor on a 6.2 and an isonic well overpowered.
www.youtube.com/watchv=rh6SSlm3fLs&ab_channel=WojtekBrzozowski

The fin wasn't really that big. I had a Tribal weedspeed 27 on, which is probably an equivalent of slalom 30cm fin

In powered up conditions it's a common tendency to hang onto the sheeting hand longer than you need to. It forces you to sit back and not get your weight into the turn.
As you already have speed you don't really need the sail power to get through the turn, just keep your weight forward and on the rail.
You have two choices, either release the back hand as you get your weight forward and let the sail flip or hang on and lay the front hand down to depower the sail. If you're doing a laydown, don't stay down too long or you'll overcook the turn. Just dip front arm close to the water then back up and flip rig. Option 1 is best is you are well overpowered and going less than wind speed or if very choppy. Option 2 is best on smooth water and travelling greater than wind speed.

You might be unintentionally holding back and not actually lean into the turn. The body does that when it's not comfortable.

It might help to make sure you move your back hand waaaay down the boom which helps controlling the power and lean into the turn more than you would normally do (the lay down helps with that but is not necessarily required).

If the board is not turning, the weight is not on the inside rail for sure. Also helps to keep your body very low (bend knees a lot) and pull down on the boom to stabilise the board.

I did try to lean into the circle, it just felt way out of balance, because the sail was pulling in the other direction. And more I tried to sheet in, more the power in the sail would increase and more the board was getting flatter and impossible to rail. I think depowering the rig early was probably the answer. The forecast is still pretty good, will try again in the next few days

Make sure the front arm is extended. Sometimes when we sheet in with the back hand when overpowered, we actually end up pulling both hands. Extending the front arm lets the sail pull the board through the turn (if you aren't so overpowered that a laydown is the only way to survive.) It also helps you from sitting back on the board another easy thing to do when overpowered. It's easy to think one is bending the knees but actually bending at the waist and sitting back.

To bend the knees, think about bending the ankles instead; and get so low that you feel like you can peek under the boom. Combined with the straight front arm, this will carve the board through.

What can also happen is that you go too far down wind when starting the turn. What happens is that you slow down and the sail then takes over. It starts to push you out of the turn while you are pressuring the rail to go the other way. Doesn't end well.

All good advice I reckon
particularly with straighten front arm when over sheeting and initiating the turn. And the bend knees it helps you oversheet and get the whole weight over leeward rail and lay down rig
but to add - perhaps a board issue. It this a board that was fine before but now suddenly it wants to straighten halfway thru the (well powered) gybes?

I reckon you are going too far downwind before getting serious about the turn, also hanging onto the sail for too long. The sail should be completely unpowered as you go through the turn because your downwind speed should be about the same as the windspeed, so zero apparent wind.

Not easy for sure. You can let go of the back hand and complete the turn like that. The reason you cannot keep the rail down is because the sail is still powered so as you lose speed in the turn it powers even more wanting to drive the board.

Work on committing your body forward, not just the sail. Move your back hand back. Maybe move your back foot a bit more back too. Watch your downhaul settings.

There's overpowered and overpowered. When really overpowered you may round upwind after hooking out. If it's overpowered "just" then maybe build up a bit more speed so the sail is lighter at jibe entry.

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Mark _australia said..
All good advice I reckon
particularly with straighten front arm when over sheeting and initiating the turn. And the bend knees it helps you oversheet and get the whole weight over leeward rail and lay down rig
but to add - perhaps a board issue. It this a board that was fine before but now suddenly it wants to straighten halfway thru the (well powered) gybes?

For the rest of us who have our curiosity piqued by your question, what sort of board issues could be the cause of something like this?

Board trim issues ?
Not leaning into the corner enough. I find if I'm going fast and don't lean into the corner before turning the board , it can do strange things.

Negative rocker that all light speedy boards get
as you rail over a certain point on the rail will work against you turning

I only mention it in case .. And as I know the OP is in reslllly flat stuff now where u feel so much more

It just occurred to me that the OP's issue is the same problem I have gybing on the wind foil.

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RumChaser said..
What can also happen is that you go too far down wind when starting the turn. What happens is that you slow down and the sail then takes over. It starts to push you out of the turn while you are pressuring the rail to go the other way. Doesn't end well.

This is precisely what it felt like

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remery said..
It just occurred to me that the OP's issue is the same problem I have gybing on the wind foil.

Try to maintain the carve past downwind so that you're on a broad reach on the new tack. You can probably practice just aiming to overcarve and come up to a reach on the new side and get slapped in from the apparent wind being too hard to handle. But it's been pointed out to me and others that you really aim for a broad reach and get yourself situated before coming back upwind on the new tack to avoid that.

At some point before then you'll have to flip the sail. Focus on the carve and maintaining it smoothly and less on the sail. I'm still working on my foil jibes but I fly them clean ocassionally. Much better at doing little steps across the board than all at once, or just holding the feet in the same spot during the carve and switching way after the flip.

It's easy to get hung up on the sail which caused me to stop carving at some point dead downwind. Smooth carve is better than jerky but you can get away with horribly ugly jerky steps sometimes if you have the height and windspeed, as long as you keep carving thru downwind. It's when the sail pressure stops turning you dead downwind where you have to focus on continuing the carve with body weight.

Also double check your rear foot is moved far enough to the new side and not central, as it makes the foot pressure easier after that downwind part.

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RumChaser said..
What can also happen is that you go too far down wind when starting the turn.

At Sotovento slalom this year when they had eliminations with a 'speed run' as the first leg, maybe 130+ degrees. People were having problems gybing, and we are talking PWA level. I think it was Cedric Bordes who joined Ben in the box and said it was because you dont have the same pressure on/ against fin that you do if you were only going 100-110 degrees off the wind, or whatever the normal angle is.

If you sheet in hard at that angle then the sail is more sheeted in relative to the wind, than if you started the gybe at 100 degrees.
Whenever I do my off the wind speed runs I always head back to about 100 degrees before gybing.

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PhilUK said..

RumChaser said..
What can also happen is that you go too far down wind when starting the turn.

At Sotovento slalom this year when they had eliminations with a 'speed run' as the first leg, maybe 130+ degrees. People were having problems gybing, and we are talking PWA level. I think it was Cedric Bordes who joined Ben in the box and said it was because you dont have the same pressure on/ against fin that you do if you were only going 100-110 degrees off the wind, or whatever the normal angle is.

If you sheet in hard at that angle then the sail is more sheeted in relative to the wind, than if you started the gybe at 100 degrees.
Whenever I do my off the wind speed runs I always head back to about 100 degrees before gybing.

Yes, good point.

You are much less used to such angles to beginn your gybe with.

You are too fast with less chances to reduce overspeed for gybing. Very often, but not always you want more boardspeed in the gybe.

Less impulse possible when entering the carve so deep.

Also less speed increase and slingshot-effects possible - plus less time/turning distance for all the movements required.

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remery said..
It just occurred to me that the OP's issue is the same problem I have gybing on the wind foil.

Again, make sure front arm is extended and sweep sail across your body as you go through the turn. Imagine the harness lines going from the inside shoulder to the outside as you go through the turn. The bigger the sail, the more important these things become. As you enter the jibe, look through the sail over your back hand at your exit and don't take your eyes off it. If your eyes wander to your hands, board nose, in front of the board, those can all have the ability to either straighten you up or keep you carving well past the exit point and fall off the foil.

Couple of examples with bigger sails but you can see how far the sail is swept to the outside right before the flip.

www.facebook.com/groups/2214321668/posts/10157642101856669/

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Tasdoc said..
.. but when I tried to do the usual 'head a little downwind, unhook, move the rig a little forward and push on the leeward rail and keep sheeting in so the sail pivots you through the curve' it just didn't work.

When you say "the sail pivots you through the curve", do you mean that you feel the sail power pulling you into the turn?

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Tasdoc said..
My gybing is still far from perfect, but in normal conditions I manage to pull off most of my gybes

What exactly do you mean with "pull off gybes" - stay dry, or stay fully planing through the entire jibe?

Also, what kind of conditions do you usually sail in? Flat water, chop, waves?

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Paducah said..

remery said..
It just occurred to me that the OP's issue is the same problem I have gybing on the wind foil.

Again, make sure front arm is extended and sweep sail across your body as you go through the turn. Imagine the harness lines going from the inside shoulder to the outside as you go through the turn. The bigger the sail, the more important these things become. As you enter the jibe, look through the sail over your back hand at your exit and don't take your eyes off it. If your eyes wander to your hands, board nose, in front of the board, those can all have the ability to either straighten you up or keep you carving well past the exit point and fall off the foil.

Couple of examples with bigger sails but you can see how far the sail is swept to the outside right before the flip.

www.facebook.com/groups/2214321668/posts/10157642101856669/

Does that apply to fin sailing?

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Paducah said..
Again, make sure front arm is extended and sweep sail across your body as you go through the turn. As you enter the jibe, look through the sail over your back hand at your exit and don't take your eyes off it.

What Pad said plus
- move front hand forward on boom
- more back hand back on boom and sheet in
- speed is your friend
- flip sail and feet early - use the speed
- steer out if the turn with your back keg

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sboardcrazy said..

Paducah said..

remery said..
It just occurred to me that the OP's issue is the same problem I have gybing on the wind foil.

Again, make sure front arm is extended and sweep sail across your body as you go through the turn. Imagine the harness lines going from the inside shoulder to the outside as you go through the turn. The bigger the sail, the more important these things become. As you enter the jibe, look through the sail over your back hand at your exit and don't take your eyes off it. If your eyes wander to your hands, board nose, in front of the board, those can all have the ability to either straighten you up or keep you carving well past the exit point and fall off the foil.

Couple of examples with bigger sails but you can see how far the sail is swept to the outside right before the flip.

www.facebook.com/groups/2214321668/posts/10157642101856669/

Does that apply to fin sailing?

I've foiled so much in the last five years, I hesitate to say. I used to have a very solid planing jibe but it's gotten a bit rusty when I'm back on a fin. The extended front arm and spotting the exit definitely apply.

After mulling it over while writing this post, I think a very big reason is that I'm a step jiber on fin. The forward step both opens the clew and gets the sail to the outside as a consequence. On foil, we keep the feet behind the straps the whole time (otherwise the board touches down) so if you aren't deliberate with both opening the sail and sweeping it across, you either a) get hilariously slapped off the board by the backwinded sail or b) get stuck going downwind struggling to get through the turn.

Nicely overpowered, i move my back hand way back on the boom before initiation, both arms extended but hanging from back hand mostly, and stay low ofcourse.
Very overpowered, i enter same but move front hand way forward as well, then release back hand way earlier and let the sail flag while i focus on carving.
But i am not a good jiber and i don't use slalom gear.

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When you say "the sail pivots you through the curve", do you mean that you feel the sail power pulling you into the turn?

What exactly do you mean with "pull off gybes" - stay dry, or stay fully planing through the entire jibe?

Also, what kind of conditions do you usually sail in? Flat water, chop, waves?

Yes, the sail stays powered up, so the board is not bouncing around too much and the whole setup feels stable

Not fully planing, but the board is still gliding and it takes only a couple of pumps to get back on the plane

My home spot is Port Phillip bay in Melbourne, which is very choppy. That's where I fail most of my gybes. But I travel quite a bit. At the moment I'm in Denham, which is pretty flat, unless superwindy

Where do you place your back foot?

The slalom boards do not have any, or not much, rocker in the back of the board, so you cannot use that for turning when you are at full speed. At slower speeds you can sort of push on the back of the board and turn that way (with lots of drag) but at higher speeds the board will just continue straight forward as the rail at the back of the board is very straight.

Instead you need to use the rail of the board that is near the mast-track, that is were you have some rocker curve that will turn the board when it is leaned over towards leeward. For this to work you need both mastfoot pressure (pull down on the boom) and a foot pressure that is placed further forward on the board.

To check if your problem is the one mentioned above you can try with the mastbase a little more forward and also placing the rear foot further forward on the leeward side when you enter the jibe. Both of these things will help to engage the forward rail which is where the rail is curved. I often place the rear foot right next to (behind) the front footstrap on the leeward side. If all goes well you keep much more speed throughout the turn and the foot can slide directly into the new front footstrap at the exit of a fully planing gibe.

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Tasdoc said..
Yes, the sail stays powered up, so the board is not bouncing around too much and the whole setup feels stable

Not fully planing, but the board is still gliding and it takes only a couple of pumps to get back on the plane

My home spot is Port Phillip bay in Melbourne, which is very choppy. That's where I fail most of my gybes. But I travel quite a bit. At the moment I'm in Denham, which is pretty flat, unless superwindy

You've developed your technique so it works well at your local spot. In very choppy water, you're always going slower than the wind, so you can keep pressure in the sail (although that's actually not the best way to jibe).

Denham is very flat and quite windy, so you are sailing at higher speeds relative to the wind. It may not feel this way since it's so flat, but a GPS would show that you are often going at about the speed of the wind, or even faster. As soon as you turn deep downwind in your jibes, your apparent wind will pretty much disappear - very different from what you are used to. In Melbourne, you are using the pull from the sail to pull your weight forward onto your toes so that you carve. But on flat water where you enter the jibe faster and slow down less, you don't have sail pressure in the middle of the jibe, so you drop back onto your heels, stop carving, and instead go straight downwind until you fall.

You'll need to adjust your technique to get into a different stance that's similar to the stance on a prone surfboard, without a sail, when carving a turn: balanced over the board, weight on your toes, knees in front of your nose. Here are a picture that illustrates the stance:

Note the bent knees ("knees in front of toes") and the oversheeted sail. There's no power at all in the sail at this point, which means this jibes works in all kind of conditions (chop or flat, faster or slower than the wind). You want to use the sail power when you enter the jibe to pull you into this stance, and then hold it when the sail power disappears because you're going downwind at about the same speed as the wind. Feels cool and often leads to "carve fascination" where you flip the rig too late - but that'd the next problem.

Make sure your front hand is overhand grip as you turn in.
Feels as if you are pulling the rail into the water as your body goes forward more naturally.
To get to the nice stance which boardsurfer shows in his pic, it's much easier if the front hand is overhand grip.

After reading all comments and dwelling on it for a bit longer, I think I know what the problem was.
As @Jetlag pointed out above, there are two ways of going into a gybe:

1. With your speed at or above the speed of the wind
2. Below the speed of the wind

With type 1 gybes the sail doesn't mess up your board railing as it does not have much power anyway.

However, at my home spot I am too used to type 2 gybes, when I have to slow down going into a gybe because of the chop. Then the delta between my speed and the wind speed keeps the sail powered up as long as I keep it sheeted in until it is time to flip the sail. The problem on the day was that the wind was about 25-30 knots and in my gybes I was slowing down to 15-20 knots, maybe even lower. Too much of a difference that kept the sail overpowered and was dragging me downwind no matter how much I tried to push on the leeward rail. I think the right technique would have been instead of trying to keep the sail sheeted in, depower it completely and glide through the curve.