I have been using a 33cm freeride fin in a 107L freestyle board with a 6m freeride sail. During faster runs, on a broad reach, the rig loses some stability so I am wondering if the fin is causing some tail dancing to occur. I have a 28cm freestyle fin for the board and wondered if that would improve things or would it make things worse by making the board more prone to spin outs?
I have tried various placements of the mast base position. Logic would say that moving it forward would stabilise things but in some instances it was the opposite. Would that make sense if there was too much lift in the tail?
I would be interested to know what others would think before I experiment with a smaller fin.

Smaller fin usually holds for higher winds.
You can always pinch upwind when really powered to slow down.
Inboard straps don't allow holding down big sails.
Outboard, like on older Skates, work great with sail power.
Try a weed fin when really powered, like around 28, or the stock 22.

honestly just go do it and tell us how it went. everyone else is just guessing.

You didn't guess.
I didn't guess either. I have 30+ days on my 110 Skate, half overpowered with 5.2 sized sails with winds jumping to over 23 after a few runs foiling...in 7-15.
Main fin is Kaku 22, sometimes stock 23, sometimes Fin Works Wave Blade 13.5 and twice with Tru Ames 12.5 swept pointer.
Only other fins tried was 28 swept weed on that board.
My Skate has outboard strap settings, but I've only used them 3 times. I have to take half the straps screws off to fit the board in the van. It's thick. So I constantly move the straps.
Most used setting is single rear fully back, fronts inboard and one hole back from forward setting.
Sail wise, have used 7.0 Retro on down to 4.5 Superfreak [in 27 knots wind]. Board does not plane earlier than my SuperSport 109, Futura 111, or Isonic 111, but does plane earlier than my Tabou Speedster 100 and my Naish Freeeide Slalom 105.

Mark, im no guru. From my experimenting ive found this. Smaller fin usually = more spin. Unless technique is spot on n board is nursed off the wind until speed increases.
Moving the mast forward can be counter productive as it engages too much rail n the fin lift n sail pressure levers off this n rails the board more. I was having similar issues using 50cm+ fins on my 150. I moved the mast back further. This engages less rail n actually lets the board ride flatter with more control.
You arent trying any freestyle moves so id be inclined to try a more powerful / pointer fin to get more grunt n get the board up n planing cleanly. It may be a freestyle board but you are just mowing the grass like the rest of us here at GB.

It's important to distinguish between the various control problems.

If the sail feels unstable then it could be badly rigged - usually needing more downhaul - or else it's just too big for the wind strength.
If the board itself feels too lively then that either because it's too big for your weight or else the fin is too long, causing the board to tail walk.
When a board spins out this is usually down to the sailor technique, where there is too much back foot load on the fin - which usually starts with your harness lines not being set far enough back.
If you put the mast foot forwards in the track then this can make you weight the board tail even more, often adding to spinout problems.

In this case, the fin is probably too long and if you have a 28cms fin then, yes of course, try that to see if it's better.
I personally would never put a 33cms fin in a freestyle board, and with a 6m rig I'd probably use a 24cms one.
The 28cms fin should be good for up to 7m rigs.
The mast foot should be in the middle or rear half of the mast track, even with a 6m size sail.

What Basher said, plus:

Are you using the mast recommended for the sail and using adequate downhaul?

If not the recommended mast then what make/model/year is sail and what mast are you using?

Also, what's the approx wind strength when you notice the rig stability issues?

Would your 33cm freeride fin have the same area as your 28cm freestyle fin? Most freestyle fins I've seen are short and very wide. Is a freestyle fin thicker for more lift at lower speeds as well? They might actually provide similar amounts of lift so might not feel that much different, although I'd guess that the freestyle fin would produce more drag.

if your tail dancing ...yes your fin is getting too big ..

trying a different smaller fin is as good as dropping 1/2 a metre in cloth ..

you seem to go forward instead of up .having the board sit down in the water is a must for control in high winds .

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olskool said..
Mark, im no guru. From my experimenting ive found this. Smaller fin usually = more spin. Unless technique is spot on n board is nursed off the wind until speed increases.
Moving the mast forward can be counter productive as it engages too much rail n the fin lift n sail pressure levers off this n rails the board more. I was having similar issues using 50cm+ fins on my 150. I moved the mast back further. This engages less rail n actually lets the board ride flatter with more control.
You arent trying any freestyle moves so id be inclined to try a more powerful / pointer fin to get more grunt n get the board up n planing cleanly. It may be a freestyle board but you are just mowing the grass like the rest of us here at GB.

With one of those push mowers perhaps

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Basher said..
It's important to distinguish between the various control problems.

If the sail feels unstable then it could be badly rigged - usually needing more downhaul - or else it's just too big for the wind strength.
If the board itself feels too lively then that either because it's too big for your weight or else the fin is too long, causing the board to tail walk.
When a board spins out this is usually down to the sailor technique, where there is too much back foot load on the fin - which usually starts with your harness lines not being set far enough back.
If you put the mast foot forwards in the track then this can make you weight the board tail even more, often adding to spinout problems.

In this case, the fin is probably too long and if you have a 28cms fin then, yes of course, try that to see if it's better.
I personally would never put a 33cms fin in a freestyle board, and with a 6m rig I'd probably use a 24cms one.
The 28cms fin should be good for up to 7m rigs.
The mast foot should be in the middle or rear half of the mast track, even with a 6m size sail.

With the 6m sail in about 15 knots it runs pretty smooth. Between say, 15 and 20 it looses some of its stability when on a broader reach as the board accelerates. The sail rig is good, plenty of downhaul, so I have been focussing on the fin just to see if I can tweak things. Normally my mast track sits close to the middle, except when I experimented to see if a couple of centimetres forwards would make a difference. No change for the good though. The size of the board may be a factor however that is something I have to live with.

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Gestalt said..
honestly just go do it and tell us how it went. everyone else is just guessing.

That is the next step. Just wanted to get an opinion or two before I jump in feet first.

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PhilUK said..
Would your 33cm freeride fin have the same area as your 28cm freestyle fin? Most freestyle fins I've seen are short and very wide. Is a freestyle fin thicker for more lift at lower speeds as well? They might actually provide similar amounts of lift so might not feel that much different, although I'd guess that the freestyle fin would produce more drag.

The fs fins are wider so they may not perform as good as the longer blades. I was wondering if the fs board would perform best with a genuine fear fin as against a freeride fin. The only way may be to test it and see.

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GazMan said..
What Basher said, plus:

Are you using the mast recommended for the sail and using adequate downhaul?

If not the recommended mast then what make/model/year is sail and what mast are you using?

Also, what's the approx wind strength when you notice the rig stability issues?

For reference, the sail is a NP Ryde on a 430 NP mast so that is working fine. Wind can vary in the gusts

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MarkSSC said..

Gestalt said..
honestly just go do it and tell us how it went. everyone else is just guessing.

That is the next step. Just wanted to get an opinion or two before I jump in feet first.

on my custom freestyle board i ise everything from 24cm freestyle fins with a 6.2m sail to 7.2m with 38mm slalom fin. inbetween that are a range of wave and freewave fins.

my son has a starboard flare and in that we use freestyle fins and freewave fins. the issue with the flare is it's slot box so is less open to a broad range of fins.

the only issue with running smaller fins i've experienced is in boards that dont have inboard strap positions.

some older freestyle boards can feel a little skatey at speed
maybe its that.

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Basher said..
If you put the mast foot forwards in the track then this can make you weight the board tail even more.

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The mast foot should be in the middle or rear half of the mast track, even with a 6m size sail.

This feels counter intuitive, if we move the mast track and footstraps forward we move the same weight and power forward, so should reduce the pressure at fin.
Is it so if not moving the footstraps?

ps: i am olso having some spinout issues on my fsw board, need help

too much pressure on the fin can be from stance. ie. not opening up your hips which pushes your weight sideways against the fin, or from leanimg back to much , or too much backhand pressure from the sail forcing your rear leg to straighten to take the load or from not enough front foot pressure because a more upright stance is need for the board being sailed.

if you watch the guys on freestyle gear you notice they sail around a lot without the rear foot in the strap. that allows them to remove pressure from the fin which helps early planing and sailing upwind underpowered. they use the back strap once powered up or for tricks and transitions.

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Sea Lotus said..

Basher said..
If you put the mast foot forwards in the track then this can make you weight the board tail even more.

The mast foot should be in the middle or rear half of the mast track, even with a 6m size sail.

This feels counter intuitive, if we move the mast track and footstraps forward we move the same weight and power forward, so should reduce the pressure at fin.
Is it so if not moving the footstraps?

ps: i am olso having some spinout issues on my fsw board, need help

I think I can explain this quite clearly - but I often get shot down when I talk about this because for many years there has been some muddled thinking, partly inherited from our longboard days.

The misunderstanding begins when we get on a short board for the first time. Typically, you stand on a sinkier board for the first time and try and get in the straps. The board tail sinks and the board nose slews into wind. You can't bear away and head upwind instead. So you naturally think that you need to move the sail area further forwards to help the board bear away, like when slogging - or like when on a longboard.
People also still say when they shift the mast foot forwards that helps 'hold the nose down'. Even good sailors kid them selves this is the way to control board trim. And that language is so unhelpful in understanding what actually happens.

Firstly, we don't actually move the straps on a board often. So your body stays in the same place, with both feet in the straps. When you then shift the mast foot forwards, all that does is to pivot the centre of effort (centre of the pull) from the sail around a fixed point - because the centre of effort is somewhere just above your head and, at best, you are lowering it.
So, in shifting the mast foot to the front half of the track, all you have actually done is to increase mast rake, which in turn drops the boom, so the weight you were hanging off the boom is reduced, with body weight increased on the board tail instead, via your feet. Mast foot load or 'mast foot pressure' (MFP) has actually been decreased. Moving the mast foot forwards thus can increase your body weight on the fin, actually causing spinout...

The sole benefit of shifting the mast foot forwards is to increase its distance from the fin, which should reduce the railing effect of an overlong fin - and that is indeed a 'good' effect when overpowered on a slalom board.
Similarly, if you are really overpowered on a freeride board or even a wave board then shifting the mast foot forwards 'can' help regain a bit of control.
However, what is way better on a wave or freewave or FSW board is to reduce fin area if you are overpowered. (Most people use way too big a fin in the first place, and that can be the root of all their handing issues!)
Reduce fin size to one that is appropriate to the sail area of the rig you are using. Set the rig more upright by keeping the mast foot in middle of the track and by shifting the front footstraps further forwards (permanently) if that seems right for the board. This might feel a bit 'catapulty' at first but you need to deal with that. In time, you should experiment further, using the rear half of the mast track. Even with a smaller fin or fins, you should find you go upwind better, meaning fewer walks of shame.

The benefit from this more upright stance is that 1) You plane earlier because you don't sink the tail. 2) You can plane faster because you soon find you can use shorter fins, with less drag. 3)You go upwind better. 4)You don't spin out because you're not overloading the board tail sideways. 5)You are not 'trapped' under a raked rig, held sitting down in the lavatory position - so you can respond to gusts quicker and are already more upright when gybing and for other turns.

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Gestalt said..

if you watch the guys on freestyle gear you notice they sail around a lot without the rear foot in the strap. that allows them to remove pressure from the fin which helps early planing and sailing upwind underpowered. they use the back strap once powered up or for tricks and transitions.

Interesting. I have been wondering why good freestylers manage to plane early even when using very small sails. While I am not in the frame for doing tricks, I do have to search for wind in between gusts. Sometimes you can just plane through a lull but other times you can be left stranded. The Fs board strap positions allow you to stay connected when off the plane however I can see the advantage of removing the back foot as you describe.

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Sea Lotus said..

Basher said..
If you put the mast foot forwards in the track then this can make you weight the board tail even more.

The mast foot should be in the middle or rear half of the mast track, even with a 6m size sail.

This feels counter intuitive, if we move the mast track and footstraps forward we move the same weight and power forward, so should reduce the pressure at fin.
Is it so if not moving the footstraps?

ps: i am olso having some spinout issues on my fsw board, need help

I agree with the counter intuitive idea, however I have had at least one experience where there was a notable positive change when I moved the track well back. On that occasion the board tended to slip better across the peaks of the chop rather than slap into them.

I get get a bit of spin out from time to time that I usually attribute to a fault in my technique because I sense that I can tend to put too much pressure on the back foot. Perhaps this is why I am reluctant to throw on a significantly smaller fin when the likelihood of spin out may be increased.

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Basher said
I think I can explain this quite clearly - but I often get shot down when I talk about this because for many years there has been some muddled thinking, partly inherited from our longboard days.

The misunderstanding begins when we get on a short board for the first time. Typically, you stand on a sinkier board for the first time and try and get in the straps. The board tail sinks and the board nose slews into wind. You can't bear away and head upwind instead. So you naturally think that you need to move the sail area further forwards to help the board bear away, like when slogging - or like when on a longboard.
People also still say when they shift the mast foot forwards that helps 'hold the nose down'. Even good sailors kid them selves this is the way to control board trim. And that language is so unhelpful in understanding what actually happens.

Firstly, we don't actually move the straps on a board often. So your body stays in the same place, with both feet in the straps. When you then shift the mast foot forwards, all that does is to pivot the centre of effort (centre of the pull) from the sail around a fixed point - because the centre of effort is somewhere just above your head an , at best, you are lowering it.
So, in shifting the mast foot to the front half of the track, all you have actually done is to increase mast rake, which in turn drops the boom, so the weight you were hanging off the boom is reduced, with body weight increased on the board tail instead, via your feet. Mast foot load or 'mast foot pressure' (MFP) has actually been decreased. Moving the mast foot forwards thus can increase your body weight on the fin, actually causing spinout...

The sole benefit of shifting the mast foot forwards is to increase its distance from the fin, which should reduce the railing effect of an overlong fin - and that is indeed a 'good' effect when overpowered on a slalom board.
Similarly, if you are really overpowered on a freeride board or even a wave board then shifting the mast foot forwards 'can' help regain a bit of control.
However, what is way better on a wave or freewave or FSW board is to reduce fin area if you are overpowered. (Most people use way too big a fin in the first place, and that can be the root of all their handing issues!)
Reduce fin size to one that is appropriate to the sail area of the rig you are using. Set the rig more upright by keeping the mast foot in middle of the track and by shifting the front footstraps further forwards (permanently) if that seems right for the board. This might feel a bit 'catapulty' at first but you need to deal with that. In time, you should experiment further, using the rear half of the mast track. Even with a smaller fin or fins, you should find you go upwind better, meaning fewer walks of shame.

The benefit from this more upright stance is that 1) You plane earlier because you don't sink the tail. 2) You can plane faster because you soon find you can use shorter fins, with less drag. 3)You go upwind better. 4)You don't spin out because you're not overloading the board tail sideways. 5)You are not 'trapped' under a raked rig, held sitting down in the lavatory position - so you can respond to gusts quicker and are already more upright when gybing and for other turns.

Thanks for posting this. There are some good ideas that I will try out. I use a double bolt Chinook base plate so the rear bolt determines how far back the mast can go. My freeride fin size was calculated using a simple formula I saw in one of Guy Cribbs articles. That size generally works well but in some conditions the board does not run as smooth as I would like. It is great to go fast and try to increase that speed. Slalom riders often use a broader reach to accelerate but this line was not workable for me as the wind range moved from moderate to fresh. Lots of speed but some loss of control and chance of a high speed catapault. The safer option is to adopt a track that is more across the wind than downwind.

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Gestalt said..
on my custom freestyle board i ise everything from 24cm freestyle fins with a 6.2m sail to 7.2m with 38mm slalom fin. inbetween that are a range of wave and freewave fins.

my son has a starboard flare and in that we use freestyle fins and freewave fins. the issue with the flare is it's slot box so is less open to a broad range of fins.

the only issue with running smaller fins i've experienced is in boards that dont have inboard strap positions.

some older freestyle boards can feel a little skatey at speed
maybe its that.

My board is a 2012 vintage JP. It has three straps with only minor adjustments, mainly fore and aft. Mine are in the forward position. Do you lose any lift (for planing) when you have the smaller fin? Do you notice a difference when carving into a gybe? What does a slalom fin do for the board that the others don't? Which of the fins works best in light winds?

In general terms, do you think that the fs boards have a slower max speed than slalom or freeride boards? Does a slalom fin improve this level of performance, particularly when sailing in lighter winds? My guess is that the slalom fin would work really well in smoother runs, behind sandbanks, where there is not much chop. Perhaps the fs fin could do better when the wind is gusty and dropping in and out, with the presence of bigger lulls.

Fs stance limits your speed.
Getting outboard and back allows bigger sail.
Fs is designed for quick acceleration, not long reach top speeds.
If your straps are forward, probably too much waterline for comfort at higher speeds. Needs track back to reduce wetted surface.
Straps on my Slate 110 is back, so track forwards work well both under and overpowered.
Outboard seems to allow for a meter bigger sail size with comfort.
Your JP doesn't have that option.

There is indeed a thing about strap position.
It's something that maybe divides us into two tribes.
The outboard strap positions, with a double back strap, are for those whose priority is to go fast, simply because you get more leverage over a longer fin when your feet are nearer the rail.
So that means you can drive hard off a longer fin for speed, and then with the lift from the fin the board then rises onto a shorter planing platform, to the point - if you overdo it - where the board starts to tail walk. The downside to outboard straps is that they are more difficult to get into, and to get out of for the gybe. I find that outboard straps can make you a passenger, rather than the driver.

The other way of windsurfing is about turning just as much as it's about speed. So inboard straps are what we use on wave gear, on freestyle kit, and indeed for learning to gybe. That's because inboard straps place your weight more centred over the middle of the board. You can still go pretty fast if you get the upright stance working well, with the mast foot position set back. A fast freestyle sailor will easily beat a freeride sailor in a speed stand off.

All slalom sailors use outboard strap positions in conjunction with a long and fast fin to match the sail size they are using, but most nowadays also go for the same upright stance, so this is not just a fashion thing.

Freestyle boards have been mentioned so I can add a bit more. They are fast and go upwind well but don't actually need a big fin or outboard straps to do either. It's maybe revealing that many freestyle sailors set their harness lines so far back that almost all the rig pull is on the front hand and not the back hand. I also know a lot of wave sailors who use the same technique to load the front hand. When it's windy we can still lean back and load the fin for extra speed when we want to.
The starting point for a slalom sailor is to load the fin. The starting point for a wave sailor or freestyler is to load the rail, and to use the buoyancy of the board to get planing.

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Basher said..
There is indeed a thing about strap position.
It's something that maybe divides us into two tribes.
The outboard strap positions, with a double back strap, are for those whose priority is to go fast, simply because you get more leverage over a longer fin when your feet are nearer the rail.
So that means you can drive hard off a longer fin for speed, and then with the lift from the fin the board then rises onto a shorter planing platform, to the point - if you overdo it - where the board starts to tail walk. The downside to outboard straps is that they are more difficult to get into, and to get out of for the gybe. I find that outboard straps can make you a passenger, rather than the driver.

The other way of windsurfing is about turning just as much as it's about speed. So inboard straps are what we use on wave gear, on freestyle kit, and indeed for learning to gybe. That's because inboard straps place your weight more centred over the middle of the board. You can still go pretty fast if you get the upright stance working well, with the mast foot position set back. A fast freestyle sailor will easily beat a freeride sailor in a speed stand off.

All slalom sailors use outboard strap positions in conjunction with a long and fast fin to match the sail size they are using, but most nowadays also go for the same upright stance, so this is not just a fashion thing.

Freestyle boards have been mentioned so I can add a bit more. They are fast and go upwind well but don't actually need a big fin or outboard straps to do either. It's maybe revealing that many freestyle sailors set their harness lines so far back that almost all the rig pull is on the front hand and not the back hand. I also know a lot of wave sailors who use the same technique to load the front hand. When it's windy we can still lean back and load the fin for extra speed when we want to.
The starting point for a slalom sailor is to load the fin. The starting point for a wave sailor or freestyler is to load the rail, and to use the buoyancy of the board to get planing.

Thanks for the thoughts. Interesting how some set their harness lines well back. I like the more neutral position so that my muscles don't have to work as hard.

I've always run my harness lines well back per sail so I constantly pull with front hand...until I'm overpowered anyways.
That way, I have less variables when overpowered, so I can concentrate on board trim and weighting instead of everything when I'm getting stressed.

The"starting point", to me is to load the boom on both slalom and freestyle.

I tested out the smaller fin during a session today. The short answer is that it worked a treat. Initially I used the larger fin so that I could gauge it under today's conditions, then I changed over to a 26cm so I could compare. After a couple of runs I could safely say that the board was planing smoother even though the chop was increasing. I was worried about spin out due to the smaller fin but that was not the case. In actual fact, the board could be turned quickly, maintaining good stability. Gybing was fun, both with tight turns and wide fast runs. I would even argue that it planed better, both in the initial stages and when sliding through lulls or pointing more up wind. Top speed was about the same as with the longer fin, but that was not an issue for me.

It's possible your big fin is crap.
My Finworks WBlade 13 can handle 26mph winds with 5.5 sail easily.
But use what works FOR YOU.

I bought another 92 FS board last summer. Stuck a 25 cm freewave fin in it to "give me more bottom end in weak sea breezes" and help with spin outs on jumps. Coincidentally I stopped planing out of gybes. I thought I was underpowered, blamed the chop. 3 months later I dinged the fin and had to revert to the stock 17.5 FS fin. Started to plane out of gybes immediately. IMO board rockers are designed for certain fin shapes and not others.

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Faff said..
...IMO board rockers are designed for certain fin shapes and not others.

That is pretty much the conclusion I came to. I also had this idea that a small freestyle fin would mean less stability, and would need more skill to control on the water. For this I was definitely wrong because the fin made it easier not harder, supporting the idea that the designers chose specific shapes and sizes for a reason.