Hello everyone.

I'm doing this, i'm using a freeride board, simmer freemove 116l with my gunsails GSR and simmer SCR sails, with 4 cambers, and also a gun vector with 3 cambers.

my question is.

As freeride boards can get going into planning earlier than slalom boards, should freeride sails do the same comparing with slalom sails??

can freeride sails planning earlier than slalom sails?? Or the major difference is the board ??

i know freeride sails are less heavier than slalom, but should i change my slalom sails to freeride sails WITH cambers??? To get the best earliest planning possible ??

btw, i'm using select S-max carbon fins!

i do really like the shape that 4 cambers make to the sail!! Is very "baggy", like it :D

the cambers can help me passing through the lulls, my homespot has a lot!! But can a freeride sail with 1 or 2 cambers do the same?? It can make the shape of the sail anyway?

thanks!

controversial stuff this should be fun.

can't say i agree that freeride boards plane earlier than slalom boards. i would suggest its' opposite. slalom boards by design allow bigger fins, less drag etc. i think freeride boards are more user friendly.

I also don't agree that freeride sails plane earlier either. depends on sail design. draft/twist etc. some freeride sails have shallow draft. depends what they were designed for. one thing is for sure slalom sails can sail deeper off the wind at speed.

definitely there are advantages in saving weight for early planning but then you can rig big to counteract the weight ie. slalom sails.
i've felt advantages with lighter camberless tight head sails for early planing but they loose power in the lulls so drop off the plane earlier.
it;s all swings and round abouts.

fins are critical in lighter winds. in general, more tip area equates to more lift. foil helps too but again to thick can be draggy so swings and round abouts again. i'd also suggest softer fins are better too but again you could just go stiff and bigger.

there is no straight answer really. technique, rigging skill, boom height, harness line length, it all makes big differences.

thought i'd add.

i have a 7.2m simmer v max freeride sail. it has a lot of preshape, is light and does have great early planing. maybe give that a thought too.

Thanks for your answers!!

Freeride board I think they go earlier than slalom, and see this at 32:46



thanks again!!

maybe you misunderstood his comments. he doesn't say freeride boards plane earlier. freeride boards don't have the width and as patrik says they tend to feel stuck to the water. however around 49' he says early planing, slalom board tick.

is there anyone on the pwa using freeride boards? early planing is crucial for a pwa sailor,

maybe I understood it bad... but... as he said, no cut outs for earlier planning.... maybe almost slalom boards have cut outs...

for sure they don't use Freeride boards, because they need speed, and slalom boards can get more speed and more control on high winds...

pwa always ride on overpower conditions, I think, for that they don't need early planning... but its me opinion... like their sails, always go big to never miss the wind :D but, it's only my opinion ;)

Very interesting. Being an intermediate I have taken an opposite approach - freerace no cam sails on slalom board.

My take is that the softer, more forgiving rig will make the slalom board easier to handle while hopefully still provide good speeds.I already have a quiver of no cam freeride sails (Simmer Vmax) and just bought a 96 liter slalom last week. Should be an interesting experience anyway.

Freeride and slalom boards of equal volume - the slalom will plane quicker. I have two of equal volume, and my slalom planes quicker than my freeride. Faster too, but a rougher ride.

I used to course race as well as formula & slalom, have 5 race sails from 6.6 to 11.0. Great for racing when FULLY powered because they are more stable, especially in gusts. With that said, the 5 freeride sails I have from 4.0 to 6.4 are much more fun to use. Lighter, easier to rig, water start, jibe and up-haul. I can't say for sure which would plane earlier of equal sizes, but I would suggest that unless you are racing, don't bother with race sails. Boards, fins, skill & technique make for early planing more than sail design.

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dedekam said..
Very interesting. Being an intermediate I have taken an opposite approach - freerace no cam sails on slalom board.

My take is that the softer, more forgiving rig will make the slalom board easier to handle while hopefully still provide good speeds.I already have a quiver of no cam freeride sails (Simmer Vmax) and just bought a 96 liter slalom last week. Should be an interesting experience anyway.

as a self-confessed intermediate, you may be better served in your progression by a freerace (instead of a slalom board).

you will get most of the advantages (certainly the ones you can take advantage of) and fewer of the drawbacks: slightly softer and less full rails, somewhat more inboard strap positions, somewhat narrower and less voluminous tails, and usually a bit more vee or some such bottom shaping. those features should make it easier for you to control the board and power and help you progress with your gybing.

Also a fan of slalom board + freerace or freeride fin + no cam sail

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WindFlyer said..

dedekam said..
Very interesting. Being an intermediate I have taken an opposite approach - freerace no cam sails on slalom board.

My take is that the softer, more forgiving rig will make the slalom board easier to handle while hopefully still provide good speeds.I already have a quiver of no cam freeride sails (Simmer Vmax) and just bought a 96 liter slalom last week. Should be an interesting experience anyway.

as a self-confessed intermediate, you may be better served in your progression by a freerace (instead of a slalom board).

you will get most of the advantages (certainly the ones you can take advantage of) and fewer of the drawbacks: slightly softer and less full rails, somewhat more inboard strap positions, somewhat narrower and less voluminous tails, and usually a bit more vee or some such bottom shaping. those features should make it easier for you to control the board and power and help you progress with your gybing.

Yes, I realize that a free race board probably would be better suited, but I got a pretty new slalom board cheap. Also, I can cherrypick the conditions I will be using it in since I have a few other boards as well.
Outboard straps won't be a problem, but gybing probably will be :-).

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ADinis said..
Freeride board I think they go earlier than slalom

True when (a) sailing passively, and (b) comparing similar sized freeride gear (board and sail) with slalom gear, or (c) when the sailor does not have good skills (e.g. has problems to get into the outboard straps on slalom gear). The current issue of the German "Surf" magazine has an article comparing freeride, freerace, and slalom gear (Tabou Rocket with no-cam Matrix, Rocket+ with cammed Cosmic, and Manta with 4-cam Vapor), and say that the comparison did not work at all without pumping because the freeride and freerace boards started planing long before the slalom board. The slalom board and slalom sail needed "very energetic pumping" to get going.

Part of the problem in the test was that they compared identical size sails. On slalom gear, I will generally use a sail 1-2 sizes bigger than on freeride gear, and I think that's pretty typical. Slalom gear is easier to sail with plenty of power, and the slalom sails are so stable that getting overpowered is rarely an issue.

That said, there are of course large differences in freeride boards. My favorite board for freeriding is a Fanatic Skate 110, which is actually a freestyle board. It has the same flat rocker and high rails as a slalom board to get going very quickly, but inboard footstraps. I can get this board planing a lot more easily than my slalom boards or many typical FSW boards. In the Surf test, the freeride board they used was the Rocket, which is known to not just plane earlier than other similar sized freeride boards, but also to be very good at getting going "passively", without pumping.

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ADinis said..
can freeride sails planning earlier than slalom sails??

Yes (but). Slalom sails have a lot more loose leech, which pretty much reduces their effective size when trying to get going in marginal conditions. Freeride sails are also easier to pump for windsurfers with typical skill sets. If you can pump a slalom sail energetically and effectively, then the difference may disappear.

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ADinis said..
the cambers can help me passing through the lulls, my homespot has a lot!! But can a freeride sail with 1 or 2 cambers do the same?? It can make the shape of the sail anyway?

True, a cambered sail will hold its shape in lulls, and help you to keep planing. That is indeed true for a freerace sail with 2 or 3 cambers.

The biggest differences between slalom and freeride sails are in wind range and handling. The larger wind range of a properly trimmed slalom sail means you can use a larger sail, which may help you get planing in less wind. But slalom sails are heavier, which is only compounded if you use larger sail. They are harder to handle in jibes, requiring better technique. If you crash on a regular basis, using a slalom sail is not a great idea. If the wide mast sleeve fills up with water, slalom sails are very hard to waterstart or uphaul. But if you are lucky enough to sail in shallow water, that's not an issue.

Overall, it seems you want to plane earlier in lighter wind, and plane through frequent lulls better. Without knowing more about your jibe success rate, fitness, and so on, it seems that a freerace sail with 2 or 3 cams may be your best bet. It's probably a bit more stable than no-cam sails, so you can use a sail size larger, and has a narrower mast sleeve than full slalom sails, which makes water starting and uphauling easier. But these are, or course, only general rules. I personally don't follow them - I'll stick with easy freeride of freestyle sails for bump and jump, and slalom sails for shallow water and speed.

A Slalom board will plane quicker and has more tail volume to stay on the plane in lulls ,
It is what you like riding ,most guys have both as in rough condition a free ride or free race board will alway be nicer and sometimes faster in chop
to ride ,but when it's flat the slalom board is in heaven ,most board companies now are working on slalom boards that are more user friendly with more control in chop and they are achieving this ,my newer isonic slalom is definitely easier to use ,compared to the older ankle breakers of the past ,I too use simmer Scr race sails on my freerace or freeride boards as the stability in high winds make the sails easier to use and not having to change sails as often,you can tune your freeride board to be fast as you are already doing using carbon s-max fins .everybody has there own favorite set up ,there are some outstanding freeride boards out there ,105 Tabou Rocket to name one .

Not all slalom sails are heavier then free race sails for example my 9.4 overdrive is lighter than my 9.2 turbo GT
it also gets me going in less wind, rotates better, has a wider wind range and is just nicer to use

I got my first plane on a Bic techno 145 with a North 7.5 full cams (from the late 90s), was super awesome. Great stability yet light and easy to rig.
Winds somewhere around 15 knots.
Rode the sail until it had more tape than monofilm.

I personally find sailing a freerace or freeride board matched to a cammed sail better, for rough chop conditions. It works either way. Flat water l'm on
Slalom gear' you are more dialled in, the sail pins the nose down & everthing works in unison.