well bumping this topic up the list sure opened pandoras box, fortunately it wasnt my entry (coz i'd probly be feeling guilty a bit by now) but oceanblue's question that started it....lol, sorry oceanblue , but hey nothing wrong with healthy debate. anyway thanx to all the replies and advice, it all actually makes sense now with what i feel and see on the water. had a feeling i wasnt sheeeted in enough, compared to guys in some photos/videos etc. am not commiting all weight to the harness, shoulda guessed considering the 7.0 v8 feels like its ripping my arms off sometimes, and harness lines probly not right cosidering my back arm cops it the worst. oh well cant wait for the wind to pick up again and get out to try some stuff. now who said some thing about spinouts.... can they happen flat water blasting.... or do i not want to know

thanx again, you a helpfull bunch of peoples, like the guys ive run into when sailing

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Gestalt said...
firstly i stick my mast in the rear of the track on all of my boards. the only time i move it forward an inch or 2 is on my formula kit in 20knots and big chop where i need the nose to drive down through the swells or on acourse if i need better upwind performance. typically setting your your mast forward in the track will increase tail walking as you are increasing the area of the board in the water and therefore the lift.

hmmm I don't get the last part. If the mast is forward and therefore driving the front of the board down and more of the board is touching the water, why does that create more lift? I thought it was the air going under the board that creates the lift? Please explain for the dumb and stupid

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nitai said...

Gestalt said...
firstly i stick my mast in the rear of the track on all of my boards. the only time i move it forward an inch or 2 is on my formula kit in 20knots and big chop where i need the nose to drive down through the swells or on acourse if i need better upwind performance. typically setting your your mast forward in the track will increase tail walking as you are increasing the area of the board in the water and therefore the lift.

hmmm I don't get the last part. If the mast is forward and therefore driving the front of the board down and more of the board is touching the water, why does that create more lift? I thought it was the air going under the board that creates the lift? Please explain for the dumb and stupid

well there is 2 types of lift going on. the lift at the nose due to wind getting under it and the lift at the tail due to fin/hull area in contact with the water surface. finding the balance is the key.

nose lift really is a thing of the past on modern gear because the boards are shorter which gives them a bigger wind range and smaller swing length. but on formula gear there is a lot of area up front so pushing the mast forward a touch (2cm or so) in extreme conditions helps keep it down when going through chop, in this case it is the nose lift which is the issue and not the tail lift.

the lift at the rear of the board is to do with speed, area in contact with the water and angle of attack. i am sure the physics experts can quote the equations.
so by pushing the nose down you are increasing the area in touch with water and therefore the lift.

to get around the tail of the board walking you can either, use a smaller fin or move the mast back or move the straps outboard or do all 3.

nitai, to give you an example.

i was at the train last week. blowing 20-30 knots.

one of the guys sailing there came in complaing of spinout issues. i looked at his board and noticed the mast in the front half of the track.

basically he had to much lift so the tail was leaving the water and inducing spinout by allowing air to travel down the fin. i suggested he move it to the back half. i didn't say how much but i suggested moving it none the less.

he did this and then went back out. when he came back in i asked him how it went.
his response was he was going a lot faster and was really lit up but the board was more controllable and didn't spin out.

another way to look at it is to think in terms of a race board with a centreboard.

going upwind you move the mast forward because the speed is less.

this provides greater area in contact with the water which increases lift and makes the rail bite assisting upwind ability.

going downwind you bring the mast back in the track because speed is higher.
this reduces wetted surface making you faster and helps avoid excessive lift making the control an issue due to tail walking.

these days on my short boards i just start with my mast in the back of the track on all of my boards and only move it forward if the nose is flying out of control. which rarely happens.

Thanks Gestalt, appreciate it.

What you've said sounds like it would relate to problems I'm having that is causing a LOT of frustration. I weigh 58kg and ride a 99L Mistral Shift. It's been great to learn on but there are 2 main issues I have:

1) Going upwind is a bitch. So I got a straighter 30cm fin which helps, still not great unless overpowered but then I suffer from what follows.

2) Too much lift and/or very sore shins. It seems that when I get going in decent wind 16-20kts there's a lot of lift under the board. What then happens is I have to struggle with ankle pressure (particularly the front foot) to try and keep the rail down which ends up with major shin strain. I did a 6km run for the first time recently (Manly to Wello) and when I got back I was F&%!ed. I have to do something about it because it really makes sailing not a lot of fun.

It was suggested that I get a smaller fin (smallest I have is a freemove 27cm) or move it forward to create less lift. Up until then I was thinking it was purely a board size to weight ratio.

I'd be grateful for any suggestions. I'm looking at getting a smaller board, but may not be able to until next season, so if there is a way to make my current board sailable I'd be happy.

it's the board to weight ratio for sure in 20 knots.

here is a review i found.

www.surfstore.co.uk/

still to make the most of your kit definately get a smaller fin 23cm or so, maybe lower your boom more to get more weight on the board and try the mast towards the back of the track. especially because the board has a heavy rocker.

once you've done this if the nose of the board is lifting out of control move the mast forward 2cm or so in the track.

also maybe you need way more downhaul.

but ultimately the board is way too big.

Wow.. you guys (Gestalt and Stribo) have such a different view to what I understood from all the stuff I'd read, watched, and been told!

Always interesting to see an alternative perspective explained!

no worries 555,

i guess there is more than one way to skin a cat.

i like to try lots of things out setup wise. some work for me some don't. i also find it very handy as you say hearing other views and talking to those around me.

one thing is for sure i am always trying stuff that's mentioned on seabreeze to see what effect it has.

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Gestalt said...

it's the board to weight ratio for sure in 20 knots.

here is a review i found.

www.surfstore.co.uk/

still to make the most of your kit definately get a smaller fin 23cm or so, maybe lower your boom more to get more weight on the board and try the mast towards the back of the track. especially because the board has a heavy rocker.

once you've done this if the nose of the board is lifting out of control move the mast forward 2cm or so in the track.

also maybe you need way more downhaul.

but ultimately the board is way too big.

Thanks Gestalt, appreciate it.

I always crank the downhaul waaay down. Smallest sail I have is a 5.4 so when I do use it, I usually have to crank on the downhaul otherwise I just can't hold it down.

I read the review for the Shift and yeah sounds like it was just the right board to learn on, but now that I've progressed it's time for something smaller.

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Gestalt said...

no worries 555,

one thing is for sure i am always trying stuff that's mentioned on seabreeze to see what effect it has.

That is the key to windsurfing well.We don,t play in a static enviroment so there is always adjustments to be made.For instance what might feel like pus on flat water feels great in the wave zone
I guess the the main thing that should be taken into account in this thread is don't be close minded about rigging and tuning your gear...that half a centimeter of downhaul or masttrack position etc. could be the difference between a good session and an awsome session

n.p. I still get it wrong sometimes