Apologies if this has been covered in previous threads.

As more and more manufacturers strive to maximise marketing appeal by mostly offering fin/foil boards, are we all potentially missing out on premium performance in a $3k AUD ish item? Are we all potentially sacrificing maximum performance in either by trying to achieve okay performance for those who like to do both in what seems to be the majority of current board models?

Yes.

Yes. I've got a foil board and when I come to replace my mid size freeride/freerace board I dont want a heavier foil box in it as I wont be using it for foiling. Its bad enough them stopping using carbon as much for lightness and stiffness without adding extra weight.
Nor more inboard footstrap plugs/flatter deck under the feet.
If the board's shape has been compromised for foil sailing, I wont be buying one.

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Mark _australia said..
Yes.

Love you. Seems like the time now more than ever to consider custom.

Yes. The board I learned to foil on, the Blast 145, is primarily a fin board with the ability to foil.

What that means to me is:
Touchdowns are more risky than a dedicated foil board with more bevel/nose rocker
Tuttle box is where it needs to be for fin with some adjustment on the foil side (like slingshot switch fuse) to get the foil position closer to where it needs to be
Footstrap location isn't always where it needs to be, and would require moving all the straps to go between better fin/foil setups
Board volume in the tail isn't the same. The dedicated foil boards have thick tails that give you a little more float back there and help some with foot positioning and pumping. The Blast narrows a bit and it's easy to prematurely sink the tail by going too aggressively with pumping in light winds.

Did I learn to foil on it? Absolutely. But, it seems like a better move to have the right tool for the right job. Everything is a compromise, it just depends on how much of that you want to do.

Yep. A freeride/slalom board will never make a good foil board, (the geometry is all wrong.) And likewise for the foil board. The board shape/geometry is completely wrong for a comfortable fin set up.

They're really just ruining the performance of a board in one way or another, trying to make a board do both. Not to mention the fact that someone that wants to give foiling a go is going to have a rubbish and very off putting first experience on that "foil ready" freeride/slalom board.

Depends a lot on the particular board. If the only change is a "foil ready" box instead of a tuttle box, the penalty is perhaps a couple of hundred grams more weight for a bit more high density foam around the box, and maybe a few more layers of cloth on top and bottom around the box. For slalom, the change can me minimal. For foiling, the tuttle box and strap positions can be a limitation for some foils that have a the wrong geometry, for example because the expect the foot straps further back.

I've spent my first 2 years foiling mostly on a 71 cm wide old slalom board, and was quite happy with it. I had a few sessions on popular foil-specific boards early on, and really did not care for them. Perhaps I progressed slower in my jibes, and upwind angles were not as great, but the board was easy to tack, and still went upwind a lot better than with a fin, so that did not matter. Not having to spend tons of money on one more board, however, mattered.

I don't know why, for recreational use, a board shouldn't be able to do both really well. I wouldn't want to put a 10m sail over a 62cm fin that was any less reinforced than a Foil-ready box would be. I like bevels, Vee and concave for riding chop on a fin, just as I like them for easing touchdowns on a foil. For competition, sure - if you're building a 6kg eggshell it's going to be dedicated to one the other, but those are completely inappropriate for anyone who actually pays for his own stuff. This one was built for me for flatwater (shown halfway done and ready to ride), with extra Innegra reinforcements at nose and rails so that getting launched doesn't automatically mean repair work, and it's heavier than a raceboard would be, but otherwise handles big sails well with either foil or fin. Not as throwaround with small sails as a little dedicated foil board would be, but I've foiled it happily with 4.2-8.6 and on a fin with 7.5-10.0. Not as idiot-proof as a big Levitator or Dialer, but it'll handle a lot more sail, and not as fast to plane as a Falcon Lightwind, but you can climb on board without putting a hole in the deck with your harness hook.

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needsalt said..
Love you. Seems like the time now more than ever to consider custom.

Yes.
Cos u will get a foil board that has a reinforced box -and coming soon Moz tracks that are wayyyy stronger and easy to use.... without all the excess weight in the front....

OR a windsurf board with the reinforcing where u need it and the right shape for a planing hull.

Forgetting shape though, even the basic material layout is different. A crossover board will be heavier or weaker. It has to be.

Then, thinking shape - is a 15-25kn touchdown the same as sustained 30kn over chop? Same front end? Pfft I doubt it.
Is the tail the same when it only sees 10kn then rises out of the water ----- or a tail that is walking all over the place at 40kn? Not rocket science. You can foil on an Esky lid if you want.

Just wait for the foil board thats coming. :)

I just bought my first foil and starting to realize the shortcomings of a "foil ready" board.
Apart from the obvious missing volumes in the bow and the (larger) tail, you better need a board with a lot of footstrap position options to be able to center the 1/3 of the leading edge of the front wing between your stance.

I like the hybrid fin/foil concept though.
Can it be a "best of both worlds" or would it rather be a "jack of all trades, master of none"?

How about these 2 boards?

The Tabou FIFTY's tagline
"50% Foil + 50% Fin = 100% WINDSURF PERFORMANCE"

The Naish GALAXY is marketed like so
"The Galaxy is a widebody freeride board that's equally at home on the fin or on the foil"

the only way to make it work is to have some kind of offset between the fin and the foil mast. tracks get around this issue but not sure how much foil traciks affect finning planning ability.

I believe there are freestyle fins for tuttle boxes that are positioned quite to the rear

I actually think a more important issue is the wingability of a windfoil board.

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FFish said..
How about these 2 boards?

The Tabou FIFTY's tagline
"50% Foil + 50% Fin = 100% WINDSURF PERFORMANCE"

The Naish GALAXY is marketed like so
"The Galaxy is a widebody freeride board that's equally at home on the fin or on the foil"

They, too, are compromises. Not saying they are bad boards or you won't learn on them but from the perspective of someone who foils 95% of the time, you will eventually want more width at the back strap. It's especially helpful even of 75-80cm boards for going upwind and maxing the available wind. Foilers spend more time with the sail sheeted in because of the apparent wind created by the lower drag at low speeds.

As others have said, the lack of volume back there (separate issue from width although the solution is essentially the same) will mean take offs are a bit more difficult as you'll probably get too much tail sink as you try to accelerate in low wind situations. Mind that a foiler is going to be using 1.5-2m less sail in the same conditions so you won't have as much power to blast out of the hole and onto a plane. Your depending more on glide and getting the wing working at the correct angle to begin to lift you out of the water and accelerate.

These are some of the nuances that aren't immediately apparent but as time goes on as a foiler you begin to value. For some people, there is a place for a board that does both but just be aware of the shortcomings. I think the best bang for the buck is a decent used smaller fin board and a proper foil board for most locales.

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thedoor said..
I actually think a more important issue is the wingability of a windfoil board.

Even worse compromise than a foil/fin hybrid I figure. But maybe not very a beginner wing board with someone who windfoils at a reasonable level.

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Grantmac said..

thedoor said..
I actually think a more important issue is the wingability of a windfoil board.

Even worse compromise than a foil/fin hybrid I figure. But maybe not very a beginner wing board with someone who windfoils at a reasonable level.

Been wondering about this as I've yet to windfoil by 114 Wizard but have almost been getting through wingfoil jibes on it in two foil sessions.

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Grantmac said..

thedoor said..
I actually think a more important issue is the wingability of a windfoil board.

Even worse compromise than a foil/fin hybrid I figure. But maybe not very a beginner wing board with someone who windfoils at a reasonable level.

I use jp freefoil 115 and it is pretty good for learning wing foil. I appreciated the floatation and stability on choppy water, and full eva pads when climbing on it. Yes, after 10-15 sessions i am sure i will want a proper wingfoil board, there are huge comprises at wingfoil side, mainly from size and mass, but i don't think there are big comprises at windfoiling side, only just a little bit more heavier from extra footstrap plugs.

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FFish said..
I just bought my first foil and starting to realize the shortcomings of a "foil ready" board.
Apart from the obvious missing volumes in the bow and the (larger) tail, you better need a board with a lot of footstrap position options to be able to center the 1/3 of the leading edge of the front wing between your stance.

I like the hybrid fin/foil concept though.
Can it be a "best of both worlds" or would it rather be a "jack of all trades, master of none"?

How about these 2 boards?

The Tabou FIFTY's tagline
"50% Foil + 50% Fin = 100% WINDSURF PERFORMANCE"

50% Foil + 50% Fin = 100% WINDSURF PERFORMANCE
Well thats marketing bollox.

50% Foil = 50% foil performance
50% fin = 50% fin performance

As you mentioned, foil boards are much shorter because you dont need or want the extra length, and the tails are much wider for early takeoff but for fin you dont want all that width but you do the length.

If you just want one board for both, probably a decent board but it is a compromise in one way or another.

The reality is that you will rarely use the hybrid board in fin mode once you master foiling, so you might as well get a dedicated foil board with their inherent advantages, like, thicknesses and width in the tail, bevels and cutouts for pop, correct alignment between sail mast, foil mast and foot straps and shorter length for less swing weight.

This guy is making it work using a 3 in 1

www.instagram.com/p/CWl9MwyIE66/

This guy also, but I believe he has to use tail shims to balance things out



I agree with others though there may be too many compromises combining fin/foil, except perhaps in the racefoil and foilstyle genres

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thedoor said..
This guy is making it work using a 3 in 1

www.instagram.com/p/CWl9MwyIE66/

This guy also, but I believe he has to use tail shims to balance things out

I agree with others though there may be too many compromises combining fin/foil, except perhaps in the racefoil and foilstyle genres

Lucas Nebelung was EFPT rookie of the year, 2nd in German freestyle 2019 , 19 in EFPT 2021. I'd say he has some serious talent.

I think that sort of foiling he is doing there, freestyle tricks at slow speed, there would be less compromise than a large freerace board vs freerace foil board for going faster on. His freestyle board is already short at 220cm.

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thedoor said..
This guy is making it work using a 3 in 1

www.instagram.com/p/CWl9MwyIE66/

This guy also, but I believe he has to use tail shims to balance things out

I agree with others though there may be too many compromises combining fin/foil, except perhaps in the racefoil and foilstyle genres

Balz Muller uses the same board for foil and fin freestyle

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John340 said..
The reality is that you will rarely use the hybrid board in fin mode once you master foiling, so you might as well get a dedicated foil board

Now that makes sense. Yeah can see it coming.. if I will not make to much damage that is

But how about the IQFoil class?

First line from Starboards IQFoil page:
"Fin or foil, from 5 knots to 35 knots, the iQFOiL package delivers the ultimate in windsurfing racing performance with just one board, one foil, one fin, one sail."

When do they actually change over to the fin?

STARBOARD iQFOiL 95
"High-performance foil racing board that is capable of upwind/downwind racing on a fin if the conditions get really tough. 95cm wide for convenient air travel. Gets planing in minimum winds and makes racing in 5 knots of wind and above possible. Powerful in light winds, controllable in strong winds, convertible to fin mode and built-in durable and lightweight Carbon Reflex technology."

Good question on the IQFoil fin. I've yet to even put the huge 68cm drake fin in my board. From what I've heard of other IQFoil owners they just learn to foil in high winds. Like this: www.instagram.com/reel/CXqBVH4AEVk/?utm_medium=copy_link

I can't imagine a board that size being much fun on a fin in the chop/swells that comes with high wind.

But also riding the foil with a 9.0 in gusty 25knot wind is intimidating, I haven't even seen conditions as extreme as that video. You don't want to drop the sail ever, and need to sail extreme angles.

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FFish said..

John340 said..
The reality is that you will rarely use the hybrid board in fin mode once you master foiling, so you might as well get a dedicated foil board

Now that makes sense. Yeah can see it coming.. if I will not make to much damage that is

But how about the IQFoil class?

First line from Starboards IQFoil page:
"Fin or foil, from 5 knots to 35 knots, the iQFOiL package delivers the ultimate in windsurfing racing performance with just one board, one foil, one fin, one sail."

When do they actually change over to the fin?

STARBOARD iQFOiL 95
"High-performance foil racing board that is capable of upwind/downwind racing on a fin if the conditions get really tough. 95cm wide for convenient air travel. Gets planing in minimum winds and makes racing in 5 knots of wind and above possible. Powerful in light winds, controllable in strong winds, convertible to fin mode and built-in durable and lightweight Carbon Reflex technology."

When they designed IQ I don't think they realized how well people could foil in strong winds, and I think they might of had a tough time selling it to the olympic sailing commitee if it was foil only.

Similar feeling as boardsurfr.

Until my skills significantly improve and I decide between speed or just free riding. Sticking with the "compromise" board. Seems to be efficient in pumping up onto the foil, flies nice when foiling in light and heavy air, transitioning from foiling to windsurfing and at times sailboard jibe are smooth and relatively easy. Foil wings are my speed limiting piece of hardware.

Next season will only be my 2nd full season of wind foiling. Only "foil" board ridden is the '18 Horue Tiny 110L. So maybe I'm missing what a "real" foil board feels like. The seas tend to be rough around here. Even on light wind days. Most days when hauling hard upwind I kiss the peaks on a routine basis. Board handles those hits and touchdowns without any issue. Don't see any real absolute need to "upgrade" to a foil specific board. Having only a deep T box is the only reason to replace.

From what I understand the Tiny is a '10 design. Originally as a slalom board. Then in '15, Horue started marketing it as a foil board. Supposedly reinforce deep Tuttle box. Light for size at ~6.5kg. Only tried it once with a 6.5M sail and 36cm MFC H1 fin. Wasn't impressed, but sail base was in the wrong position, SlingShot half strap in the rear were literally a pain.

Would consider the newer version (twin slot and deep Tuttle box) 90 or 100L (same dimensions, but volume) as a replacement. Happy with the current older model and have a comfort factor riding it. Problem. Local shop no longer stock Horue.