Equipment tips & Settings forum page (Equipment)

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Equipment tips & Settings forum page

Created by

choco > 9 months ago, 31 Oct 2011

choco

4177 posts

31 Oct 2011 9:30pm

What does everyone think about having an "equipment tips and settings" forum page?
There are alot of questions asked and answered but it's spread far and wide in different sections of the windsurfing forums from gear reviews-Gps speed to General it would be great to consolidate everything in one section.
If there's a good response Laurie might add it.

Stuthepirate

3591 posts

31 Oct 2011 9:45pm

^^^I second that motion

Mark _australia

23526 posts

31 Oct 2011 7:24pm

I agree

Never looked at the Gear reviews page until I posted one (review that is) and it is full of questions that should be in Windsurfing - General ........but they may be hard to find there as within an couple of days they are off on the second page. An equipment tips page would be good I reckon

Subsonic

3384 posts

31 Oct 2011 8:34pm

Sounds like a great idea to me!

djl070

290 posts

31 Oct 2011 8:38pm

Good idea as I am sure there is a great deal of knowledge out there which would be extremely helpful

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

1 Nov 2011 10:18am

Here's a starter (just to be sure Laurie gets the idea

):

Masts by Peterman
www.peterman.dk/windsurf-mast-article-gb01.htm

Why worry about masts?
The season has just started, and some of us are considering a new sail or a new mast. However, most of us can't afford to buy everything at the same time, and consequently we are facing problems with mixing new and old (or old and old!) equipment in a new way. "Can I buy a used Severne 520 race mast, shorten it and use it with my new Neil Pryde RS6 7.8?" - "Can I buy a new Maui Sails TR2 and use it together with my Neil Pryde X6 mast?" - "I've got an old Fiberspar Reflex 6000; can I use it with my new Gun sail?" ...etc.

Another reason for having a closer look at the questions on masts, is that as usual at this time of the year the companies are pretty busy using their internet sites and foras for spreading fogs (or perhaps mis-information?) about their products. All in a not especially helpful attemt to tell us that not only are their masts best for their own sails - but also the sails from the competiters can benifit from their masts. And furthermore also once in a while to convince us, that it is not a good idea to shorten or to lengthen our old masts in an attemt to get a result, that you (according to the masts producers) can only achieve in buying an all new mast in the right length.

Below you'll find some guidelines for choosing masts and for modifications on masts. Trying not to make things too complicated, lots of interesting discussions are not persued. Nothing else mentioned we are talking about the most expensive (race) masts.

N.B.: There has been a lot of arguing about "demonisation" in this country for the last months - and the following shall not be misinterpreted as an attempt to "demonise" the mast companies. However, it is evident that there are at least different (perceived?) interests between the consumers and the mast producers. That these differences are not real, we can only hope for the industri to realize soon.

..... to be continued

Mobydisc

NSW

9029 posts

1 Nov 2011 11:19am

Perhaps making tags compulsory when making a new thread would work better. Too many sub forums can break up the conversations.

A problem is the gear review forum is rarely used for gear reviews. Its more like product releases, sponsored opinion pieces and people asking what boom to buy.

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

1 Nov 2011 11:28am

Select to expand quote

Masts by Peterman
www.peterman.dk/windsurf-mast-article-gb01.htm
..... to be continued

The most used method of mast measuring (IMCS).

Currently one method of mast measuring is commonly accepted - and that's the so called IMCS (Index Mast Check System). If you IMCS-test a mast, you simply support the mast at the ends, and the you hang a 30 kg weight from the midpoint of the mast. Then you measure 2 things:

Stiffness.
Measuring how much the mast deflects related to the length, you have a figure for the stiffness of the mast. When a mast is imprinted with say IMCS 32, it is the stiffness that are referred to. The bigger the number, the more the stiffness.

Bend Curve.
If you measure how much the mast deflects at the 1/4 point of the mast, at the midpoint, and at the 3/4 point you get some figures telling of the way the mast are bending under load (called bend curve or bend characteristics). If we for instance say that a mast deflects 13 cm at the 1/4 point, 20 cm at the midpoint, and 15 cm at the 3/4 point, you find your calculator and do as follows:
First you calculate how much the mast deflects at the 1/4 point in % from the deflection at the midpoint. In our example it's (13 x 100 / 20) = 65 %.
Next you do the same calculation for the 3/4 point - that is the deflection of the mast at the 3/4 point in % from the deflection at the midpoint. The calculation is (15 x 100 / 20) = 75 %.
Now all you have to do, is to subtract the two figures - that's 75 % minus 65 % = 10. To be correct, the denomination is not 10 % but 10 %-points. Anyway, you say that the mast has the bend curve of 10 *).
To make it easier to understand the bend curve figure you can translate the figures to these IMCS terms:

0 - 6: Hard top.
7 - 9: Hard top - constant curve.
10 - 12: Constant curve.
13 - 15: Constant curve - flex top.
16 - 18: Flex top.
19 - 21: Flex top - super flex top
22 - : Super flex top.

..... to be continued

Windxtasy

4017 posts

1 Nov 2011 9:56am

I'd like to know how to adjust mast base settings and sailing style for different types of fins (same size) on the same board- freeride/pointer/weedy. Do I need to change footstrap positions also?

Pel

66 posts

1 Nov 2011 10:35am

I think its a great idea, get on it!

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

1 Nov 2011 3:54pm

Select to expand quote

Wineman said...

Masts by Peterman
www.peterman.dk/windsurf-mast-article-gb01.htm
..... to be continued

Pt 3

The misleading use of bend curve characteristics of (some of) the companies.

It is evident from the scale that "Constant Curve" doesn't mean that the mast is equally soft (or stiff) from the bottom to the tip. Constant Curve means that if you hang a weight of 30 kg from the midpoint, the mast deflects 10 - 12 %-points more at the 3/4 point than at the 1/4 point. No more - no less. You can't say that a mast is "relatively Constant Curve" - as heard from a well known sail designer in an excuse of his top stiff masts.
In spite of this lack of room for mistakes, almost all masts from the companies are called Constant Curve - wether they are or not **). Perhaps this is so, because there is most sale in telling that the masts follow a middle course. The underlying message of the companies is that the mast has a standard bend curve, so that it fits all modern sails. But often it is misleading *), and the buying of a mast according to the inaccurate or perhaps immoral playing with names that - as we saw above - is in fact precisely defined, has cost many a windsurfer lots of money for no good.
For instance, Gaastra, Fiberspar (the longer masts) and Maui Sails masts are all very stiff in the tops (most often placed between 5 and 9). These masts are specifically made for the companies own Vapor (former Nitro and Neutron) and TR sails. The masts are not Constant Curve - in spite of the pretence - and they mostly only fit to the sails mentioned ***).
A couple of years ago Neil Pryde had a pretty sofisticated way of spreading fogs: They published some "Bend Offsets", which (when you calculated on the figures) placed the masts in the middle of the Constant Curve scope. The figures obviously more reflected a kind of "calculating backwards" to get the wanted results, than they reflected genuine measurements. A more recent Neil Pryde trick is to indicate approval to the IMCS system by telling the IMCS stiffness (say IMCS 21), whereupon they - without any defintion at all - name the bend curve "Progressive Flex". Are you confused? No need to be - just remember that the Neil Pryde masts are pretty soft on the tops (most often placed between 14 and 17 ****)), and that they are specifically made for Neil Prydes own sails. The masts are not Constant Curve, and you can't use them in many sails from other brands.

Footnotes.
*) There is a little further information to get in the calculation for bend curve than just the figure ("10" in the example). If you compare the 1/4-deflection and the 3/4-deflection mentioned (65% and 75 %) with for instance deflections of 63% and 73 %, you'll end up with the same bend curve figure. However, intuitively you might see that the 65/75 mast is a little more "U-shaped" than the 63/73 mast, that is a bit more "V-shaped." Admitted, this is perhaps a little nerded.

**) There are exceptions - Sailworks seems to be honest about their masts.

***) The new sail designer for Gaastra (Dan Kasseler) came from Naish Sails, where he designed sails around some (probably) traditional Constant Curve masts. At Gaastra he inherited the top stiff masts from Barry Spanier and Phil McGain, and he has built the first Gaastra race sails (the Vapors) around these masts. From the start Kasseler said that he'll continue to design sails around those original Gaastra (former "Ignition") masts - but from 2007 Gaastra without any announcement changed their race masts to Constant Curve and presumably changed their sails accordingly. At Naish Sails he also had a great success building sails around such more traditional masts - for instance the sail that helped Finian Maynard making his World speed record in the autum of 2004.
In an all new video at the Maui Sails homepage, Phil McGain one more time tells us that his SRS 100% masts are Constant Curve. But the truth of this statement doesn't grow with the reiterations of the falsity. Maui Sails race masts are and have always been Hard Top - Constant Curve!

****) The bend curve of the longest (and seldom used) Neil Pryde race mast (the X9 580) is placed around 12.

latedropeddy

VIC

417 posts

1 Nov 2011 7:41pm

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

2 Nov 2011 8:54pm

Select to expand quote

Wineman said...

Masts by Peterman
www.peterman.dk/windsurf-mast-article-gb01.htm
..... to be continued

Pt 4.

What's most important - stiffness or bend curve?

What to look for - stiffness or bend curve? Unfortunately we get no help from the companies that (besides their empty way of using the phrase "Constant Curve") only inform us about the stiffness of their masts (say IMCS 32). And - as we saw - the stiffness is far from the whole truth about the masts. In fact you could pretty easily argue that information about the bend curve might be more important. Since the stiffness tells something about when the mast starts working (at what load), the bend curve tells something about how the mast shall work when loaded.

How does the soft and the stiff areas of the mast influence the appearence of the sail?

Working in the sail, the mast of course deflects the most in the softest areas of the mast - and deflects least in the stiff areas. Where the mast deflects the most, it pulls away from the leech - in this way straightening the sail (with little depth) on level with the soft area. If the sail has a camber inducer at this place, it often rotates easily - or perhaps it is even not pressing properly on the mast.
Conversely, the stiff areas of the mast shall not move a long way from the leech - thereby not straightening out the sail-cloth on level with this stiff area (creating lots of depth). If the sail has a camber inducer at this place, it most often presses hard on the mast - often to a level at which it's difficult to rotate. And when it rotates, it is often accompanied by a loud "camber-bang."

Mark _australia

23526 posts

2 Nov 2011 7:09pm

Wineman, you should know that what we all really want is a tutorial on how to get a 2 piece mast separated

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

2 Nov 2011 11:14pm

^^^
Ask Laurie.... the answer is on the forum....somewhere.

Wait!
What if we had an equipment tip forum page

Good idea Mark. Why don't we ask the Big Kahuna.

choco

4177 posts

3 Nov 2011 7:09am

Select to expand quote

Wineman said...

^^^
Ask Laurie.... the answer is on the forum....somewhere.

Wait!
What if we had an equipment tip forum page

Good idea Mark. Why don't we ask the Big Kahuna.

If you don't think it's a good idea just say so

have a quick squiz around the windsurfing forums and you'll see questions on equipment popping up all over the place.
The idea is so people with similar equipment can ask what kind of setup other guys are using, tuning tips, fins, mast track position footstrap placement,board repairs etc

Mobydisc

NSW

9029 posts

3 Nov 2011 7:51am

Select to expand quote

choco said...

Wineman said...

^^^
Ask Laurie.... the answer is on the forum....somewhere.

Wait!
What if we had an equipment tip forum page

Good idea Mark. Why don't we ask the Big Kahuna.

If you don't think it's a good idea just say so

A wiki or more moderation is more in line with what you are asking for rather than a new forum. I think all a new forum would do is be another place for the questions and answers that currently seem to go all over the place anyway.

So we would get equipment set up questions in the Windsurfing General, GPS, Gear Review, Wavesailing, state forums and the equipment set up forum.

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

3 Nov 2011 11:11am

Select to expand quote

choco said...
If you don't think it's a good idea just say so

C'mon Choco, that's what I'm sayin'.

I keep ~~bumping~~ adding to mast article

because I had to trawl thru all forums to find the right stuff when I had a mast issue come up. Frustrating when search doesn't give the result you want.

Maybe Laurie ~~will~~ may eventually give an answer.

sboardcrazy

NSW

8292 posts

3 Nov 2011 5:21pm

Be buggered if I can ever get a search to work!

[}:)]

laurie

3860 posts

3 Nov 2011 3:36pm

7 in favour (or there abouts) so far .. nobody against yet another category?

Waterloo

QLD

1497 posts

3 Nov 2011 5:40pm

+1 in favour

boardboy

QLD

554 posts

3 Nov 2011 6:17pm

im in favour.

rarely look at gear review personallu but am always looking for tuning tips.

barn

2960 posts

3 Nov 2011 4:39pm

Nah..

Select to expand quote

Hey everyone, move your harness lines 4cm back, it'll make you sheet in, go faster and plane earlier..

That didn't need a forum..

Wineman

NSW

1412 posts

3 Nov 2011 8:28pm

There's a surprise......Barnsey disagrees!

Onya Laurie

barn

2960 posts

3 Nov 2011 6:13pm

Select to expand quote

Wineman said...

There's a surprise......Barnsey disagrees!

Onya Laurie

Why not just make a forum for everything, leave General for the Caption comp..

Trolling
Videos
Pictures
Slalom
Freeride
Freestyle
Longboards
Formula
Old People Windsurfing
Female Windsurfing
Male Windsurfing
Lake sailors
Ocean sailor
Sailing Tips and Tricks
Trailers and Roof Racks
Rules Of The Road
Windsurfing Companions, Pets and Spouses
Gaypryde Pisstakings
Customs and Repairs
Turfdogging
Windsurfers Agreeing With Each Other (I'd be banned)
Christian and Scientologist Windsurfers (also banned)

choco

4177 posts

3 Nov 2011 8:53pm

If is does happen Barn, make sure you don't post in it, sounds like the choice will be too confusing for you

ikw777

QLD

2995 posts

3 Nov 2011 9:04pm

It doesn't matter what forum it went in, whether its a new one or general, or GPS or whatever, you're still going to have to SEARCH for what you want. After a year of posts the thing you want won't be at your fingertips, it will be pages and pages back. YOU WILL HAVE TO SEARCH, and at that point it won't really make any difference where it is in the seabreeze forum structure.

I'd like to see an improved search facility that would let you go back more than one year. I often use the google "site:" function to find stuff in seabreeze that was posted more than a year ago. At present I get the impression that seabreeze doesn't guarantee to retain posts more than a year old. In either case, you will have people repeatedly posting the same questions about stuff like mast curves every season; new forum or not.

Perhaps a seabreeze wiki would be a better way of handling the collective knowledge of forum members? I think someone suggested that above?

Mobydisc

NSW

9029 posts

3 Nov 2011 10:19pm

As I said above, if people persist in posting stuff in the wrong forum, ie asking about what boom to buy in the Gear Review forum, creating a new forum is going to increase the diffusion of information.

If we want a central repositry of information that can be moderated such as I think Roo's excellent guide to board set up, then a wiki is the go. Forums are better suited to discussion rather than recording information for posperity. Even if you make a thread sticky at the top it tends to fill with irrelevant posts.

So when the Equipment tips and Settings forums starts to fill with "What boom to buy" threads, what will the difference be?

Anyway this is an excellent discussion.

barn

2960 posts

3 Nov 2011 7:41pm

Select to expand quote

Mobydisc said...

Anyway this is an excellent discussion.

Agreed, but it should be moved the the New Forums? forum..

I realise I should have posted this^ in the Obvious/Bad Jokes Forum..

Mark _australia

23526 posts

3 Nov 2011 7:46pm

Select to expand quote

ikw777 said...

It doesn't matter what forum it went in, whether its a new one or general, or GPS or whatever, you're still going to have to SEARCH for what you want. After a year of posts the thing you want won't be at your fingertips,

That's why I suggested sticky topics a few times.

At least for how to get a stuck mast apart, what should I buy as a beginner , a sail rigging tutorial, etc.
The response was that is in the articles section but still requires a search and people new to the site don't know about the articles

DanP

VIC

286 posts

4 Nov 2011 12:04am

Why doesnt someone just write some newbie articles...
www.seabreeze.com.au/Articles/All/Summary.aspx
There is no windsurfing section on this page, yet SUP, Kite and fishing are all covered. Maybe this is why people still post questions???

An article for getting started - windsurfing 101
Choosing the right mast
unsticking a mast
Beach starting
Water starting in chop
How to get into footstraps
etc etc

Then when/if someone posts a question people can be directed to the relevant article.

Surely there's enough stuff out there that people dont need to reinvent the wheel in putting these together. Maybe also a link from the forum page could be made directing new comers to these articles???

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