Hi there, I am an A-level Student doing a Design Engineering project. My aim is to help reduce the annoyance of tightening the downhaul on a windsurfing rig. I realise that some products exist, but it would also be cool if the same tool could be used to do the outhaul as well. Any ideas and help would be welcome! If you could answer these two questions as well, that would be amazing.
What do you find most annoying happens on the water? Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

outhauls require very little tension and for most people, set and forget on the beach before going out. For those of us who actually adjust ours inflight, a simple pulley system (there are variations) that's been in use for years




Most of us downhaul the old fashioned way - not hard if it's not a high tension sail, e.g. race but for extra help, we have these



Duotone has a ratcheting downhaul already, the Power XT
www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/hardware/xts-bases/powerxt-20/



And there's the Noer Stick - a clever bit where the extension collar is adjustable www.noerstick.com



Not trying to dissuade you but give you an idea of the current state of affairs.

Most windsurf components are still the same as 30 yeas ago, just lighter materials and some minor improvements as seen above.

Let's not limit our thinking: what I would like is an on-the-water adjustable downhaul with 3 or 5 settings; neutral + 1 or 2 settings for more + 1 or 2 settings for less downhaul that I can adjust in a flick, ideally while sailing similar to the adjustable outhauls.

The neutral is what we set the downhaul to on the beach, similar to how we do today before sailing. Then if the wind drops, I just let go a bit of downhaul and when it increases or there are massive gusts I can quickly adjust to (much) more downhaul.

Say each setting is between 0.5-1 cm more or less downhaul (2 cm is generally a lot).

This is probably very hard to do, maybe it can't even be done and still have a reliable, safe, maintenance and convenient system, but I guess you're looking for a challenge right?

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ptsf1111 said..
Most windsurf components are still the same as 30 yeas ago, just lighter materials and some minor improvements as seen above.

High-carbon masts. Carbon booms. RDM masts. Carbon-mast extensions for RDM masts. X-Ply. Tuttle box. Roller-hook for harnesses. Euro-pin base.

None of those existed in the marketplace in 1992.

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ptsf1111 said..
Most windsurf components are still the same as 30 yeas ago, just lighter materials and some minor improvements as seen above.

Let's not limit our thinking: what I would like is an on-the-water adjustable downhaul with 3 or 5 settings; neutral + 1 or 2 settings for more + 1 or 2 settings for less downhaul that I can adjust in a flick, ideally while sailing similar to the adjustable outhauls.

The neutral is what we set the downhaul to on the beach, similar to how we do today before sailing. Then if the wind drops, I just let go a bit of downhaul and when it increases or there are massive gusts I can quickly adjust to (much) more downhaul.

Say each setting is between 0.5-1 cm more or less downhaul (2 cm is generally a lot).

This is probably very hard to do, maybe it can't even be done and still have a reliable, safe, maintenance and convenient system, but I guess you're looking for a challenge right?

Don't the raceboard guys have an adjustable downhaul ?

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What do you find most annoying happens on the water? Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

Yes the most annoying is jet skier's that think you are a moving buoy. They come up at high speed towards you too piss you off. Maybe you could develop a device that could shoo them away. I open for ideas. Lol

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gavnwend said..

What do you find most annoying happens on the water? Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

Yes the most annoying is jet skier's that think you are a moving buoy. They come up at high speed towards you too piss you off. Maybe you could develop a device that could shoo them away. I open for ideas. Lol

It's called a slingshot .

Coming back to windsurfing after 20 yrs, I find the downhaul rope and pulley set up a big step backwards. Before I had a hook pulley permanently on the strings on the mast part, just hooked to the sail and pulled. Now with the pulley integrated into the sail I have to fiddle with the strings feeding them through 8 tiny holes. I get that this allows the sail to be trimmed closer to the mast base but still, it must be possible to find a less fiddly and slow set up ? The current system almost makes me want to have a dedicated mast base permanently attached to each of my sails which I just have to slip into the mast, pull, and go. No fiddling.

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mathew said..

High-carbon masts. Carbon booms. RDM masts. Carbon-mast extensions for RDM masts. X-Ply. Tuttle box. Roller-hook for harnesses. Euro-pin base.

None of those existed in the marketplace in 1992.

Yeah, I call that lighter/smaller or further developed but not revolutionary. Maybe we don't need or want that even, but that's just my observation. Ok, maybe 20+ years as that's how long I sail. ;) Don't get me wrong, I do not want to go back that old gear and pretty happy with how everything works today but it's still a hassle to carry, rig and tune it all or do we call that the charms of windsurfing? :P

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Jasonwave said..
Coming back to windsurfing after 20 yrs, I find the downhaul rope and pulley set up a big step backwards. Before I had a hook pulley permanently on the strings on the mast part, just hooked to the sail and pulled. Now with the pulley integrated into the sail I have to fiddle with the strings feeding them through 8 tiny holes. I get that this allows the sail to be trimmed closer to the mast base but still, it must be possible to find a less fiddly and slow set up ? The current system almost makes me want to have a dedicated mast base permanently attached to each of my sails which I just have to slip into the mast, pull, and go. No fiddling.

Thats because now sails have a huge amount of downhaul and little or no outhaul. It's a way sails get a 3D shape bending the mast. Now you need the gearing. I'm beefy and I can't produce enough downhaul on a 9.2 race sail without a winch system despite 3 pulleys each end. Thats a nutso amount of downhaul. I haven't done the calculations, but I'm sure it would lift a small rhino off the ground.
As a starting point, sails now have a light finger pull of outhaul.
Kind off opposite to 20 years ago.
Those many pulleys are necessary and your friend.
I agree a hook and go pulley system would be better, but it would have to be 3 pulleys each end. some manufacturers are using four, but now sail designers are using less down haul, so 3 is probably enough.

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ptsf1111 said..

mathew said..

High-carbon masts. Carbon booms. RDM masts. Carbon-mast extensions for RDM masts. X-Ply. Tuttle box. Roller-hook for harnesses. Euro-pin base.

None of those existed in the marketplace in 1992.

Yeah, I call that lighter/smaller or further developed but not revolutionary. Maybe we don't need or want that even, but that's just my observation. Ok, maybe 20+ years as that's how long I sail. ;) Don't get me wrong, I do not want to go back that old gear and pretty happy with how everything works today but it's still a hassle to carry, rig and tune it all or do we call that the charms of windsurfing? :P

I've done the then and now sailing. It's so much easier now. Equipment is definitely better. Where I would like to see improvements is the life of products. Boards are falling apart, and sails are so fragile. I would have liked modern technology to better that. It seems that the newer the product, the shorter its life. It's sad that getting into the sport is getting expensive because of this.

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Jasonwave said..
Coming back to windsurfing after 20 yrs, I find the downhaul rope and pulley set up a big step backwards. Before I had a hook pulley permanently on the strings on the mast part, just hooked to the sail and pulled. Now with the pulley integrated into the sail I have to fiddle with the strings feeding them through 8 tiny holes. I get that this allows the sail to be trimmed closer to the mast base but still, it must be possible to find a less fiddly and slow set up ? The current system almost makes me want to have a dedicated mast base permanently attached to each of my sails which I just have to slip into the mast, pull, and go. No fiddling.

I can understand where your coming from. You could go back to a pulley hook, they are still available - I lost a lot of hooks when de rigging ( carelessness) But bare with it, the new gear is better

Most annoying when others are faster than me !

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Kunzerkite17 said..
Hi there, I am an A-level Student doing a Design Engineering project. My aim is to help reduce the annoyance of tightening the downhaul on a windsurfing rig. I realise that some products exist, but it would also be cool if the same tool could be used to do the outhaul as well. Any ideas and help would be welcome! If you could answer these two questions as well, that would be amazing.
What do you find most annoying happens on the water? Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

A-level ?. That would be the final year in highschool ?

Thinking left field: Instead of adjustment at bottom of sail, have adjustment at top of sail. Say a worm screw/rack adjustment assembly that user can wind on with a fold down/lock handle similar to a jockey wheel on a caravan. A few engineering hurdles though:

- Must be able to sustain long term abuse, wear and sand (particularly sand). This section of the rig is what often gets jammed in the sand/mud.

- A 'headcap' equivalent adjustment (what this idea is doing), is going to change the sail characteristic differently to adjusting it from the bottom, so mast may possibly need a redesign for varying headcap. I think this may be slight in wave sails, but very noticeable in high tension sails.

- Weight: A bit of high weight maybe beneficial for speed sailing, but definitely should be avoided for wave and freestyle.

Hope that helps. Good luck

PS/ Regarding speed sails (cammed sails), if you invention rapidly releases due to a blow/impact, it will damage the sail (snapped battens etc). Your product will quickly loose confidence if it does this.

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Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

Well no specifications but a left field thought. I recon if we standardized mast bend according to body weight instead of mast length we could avoid having to collect so many masts. Eg an IMCS 21 mast with a 60kg person hanging off it is alot different to 100kg hanging off it. Why not have a mast with extension pieces that are made for 60, 80 or 100kg people. You might have 2 mast pieces making up 4m then some additional sections for eg 30, 60 or 90cm. You will therefore only need 1 mast set for all sail sizes and each would fit cos its based on your body weight. Would be good to hear input from someone with sailmaking skills!

And while your fixing masts.....why the f#ck cant someone make a simple way to hold the mast joints firmly together once connected, maybe a twist lock or screw in joint that keeps the sections from working apart when rigging up, what about velcro or rubber bungee across the joint? yes I know you can tape them but really is that the best out manufacturers can do?

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Paducah said..
outhauls require very little tension and for most people, set and forget on the beach before going out. For those of us who actually adjust ours inflight, a simple pulley system (there are variations) that's been in use for years




Most of us downhaul the old fashioned way - not hard if it's not a high tension sail, e.g. race but for extra help, we have these



Duotone has a ratcheting downhaul already, the Power XT
www.duotonesports.com/windsurfing/hardware/xts-bases/powerxt-20/



And there's the Noer Stick - a clever bit where the extension collar is adjustable www.noerstick.com



Not trying to dissuade you but give you an idea of the current state of affairs.

In the first pic where it connecting to the clue of the sail the pulley system rusted my clue, idk if its damaged it .

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jn1 said..

Thinking left field: Instead of adjustment at bottom of sail, have adjustment at top of sail...

That's the last place in a rig where I'd add weight.

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Imax1 said..
I agree a hook and go pulley system would be better, but it would have to be 3 pulleys each end. some manufacturers are using four, but now sail designers are using less down haul, so 3 is probably enough.

Advantage to current system is that the pulley wheels are bigger and cause less friction as opposed to the smaller pulley wheels of a hook. Noticeable when I went from older Chinook extensions with smaller wheels to modern ones.

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gavnwend said..

What do you find most annoying happens on the water? Do you have any specifications for a product that would make windsurfing more enjoyable and less of a hassle?

Yes the most annoying is jet skier's that think you are a moving buoy. They come up at high speed towards you too piss you off. Maybe you could develop a device that could shoo them away. I open for ideas. Lol

So I am assuming you are fining, cause with a foil their wake is no issue and they learn that quickly and leave you alone, but I did have a jet ski play chicken with me once, I never flinched and he got out of the way (I had right of way).

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And while your fixing masts.....why the f#ck cant someone make a simple way to hold the mast joints firmly together once connected, maybe a twist lock or screw in joint that keeps the sections from working apart when rigging up, what about velcro or rubber bungee across the joint? yes I know you can tape them but really is that the best out manufacturers can do?

That right! This is still a mayor pain point in 2022 and no manufacturer bothered to fix this while it is ridiculous if you think about it. Taping your super expensive mast from day 1 because it separates otherwise or gets stuck due to sand

That said, we can fully rig our (no cam) gear in under 5 minutes which is pretty amazing if you think about all the steps required. People with different interests are still pumping their kites and untangling spaghetti lines by the time we hit the water so maybe it's not all bad

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ptsf1111 said..

And while your fixing masts.....why the f#ck cant someone make a simple way to hold the mast joints firmly together once connected, maybe a twist lock or screw in joint that keeps the sections from working apart when rigging up, what about velcro or rubber bungee across the joint? yes I know you can tape them but really is that the best out manufacturers can do?

That right! This is still a mayor pain point in 2022 and no manufacturer bothered to fix this while it is ridiculous if you think about it. Taping your super expensive mast from day 1 because it separates otherwise or gets stuck due to sand

That said, we can fully rig our (no cam) gear in under 5 minutes which is pretty amazing if you think about all the steps required. People with different interests are still pumping their kites and untangling spaghetti lines by the time we hit the water so maybe it's not all bad

That's an interesting challenge honestly. I think putting threads there is a non starter due to just the stress concentration and fibers not working that well in threads. However, there may be another solution for joining the mast sections that is more secure.

Select to expand quote

ptsf1111 said..

And while your fixing masts.....why the f#ck cant someone make a simple way to hold the mast joints firmly together once connected, maybe a twist lock or screw in joint that keeps the sections from working apart when rigging up, what about velcro or rubber bungee across the joint? yes I know you can tape them but really is that the best out manufacturers can do?

That right! This is still a mayor pain point in 2022 and no manufacturer bothered to fix this while it is ridiculous if you think about it. Taping your super expensive mast from day 1 because it separates otherwise or gets stuck due to sand

That said, we can fully rig our (no cam) gear in under 5 minutes which is pretty amazing if you think about all the steps required. People with different interests are still pumping their kites and untangling spaghetti lines by the time we hit the water so maybe it's not all bad

I use Duck tape to wrap the joint (1" wide piece), every time, has never let in sand. I drove home once with a stuck mast sticking out my car window.

i use a screw driver