Well. That was interesting. Which is """better"""?

Foil is just so boring to watch

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..
Foil is just so boring to watch

Yeah, it just looks too serene. But it feels great.

I don't know, nothing serene about being on the knife-edge between fast and crash at 35 kts.

I know I will never get there, but the serenity of "sane" foiling is definitely nice. Not good for spectators but great for the foiler. That's a big part of the attraction.

As usual, it is mostly the racing regime that leads the development and evolution of the sport, even for non-racing. Always has. Slingshot is an exception.

Select to expand quote

Ben1973 said..
Foil is just so boring to watch

Did not look boring to me but I understand if you are a fin all the way windsurfer now with the writing is on the wall for a end to development of fin gear it would be hard to watch

I like the foil vs fin concept and I hope they stay close enough for a while to see some good battles across a couple of full seasons and in a variety of conditions. The foil at speed in some of the choppier locations probably won't be boring to watch especially if you have a foiler like nic g on the edge pushing against fins like AA and Pierre M etc who are also on the edge. Fingers crossed 2022 is more of a complete year.

I have it from one of the sailors in the defi that apart from nic g in every race that he chose fin the rest of the foilers were well behind by the second mark - but there was Nic g right up the front. Shows the foil is already competitive in strong winds BUT it's extremely difficult.

Select to expand quote

Freeflight said..


Did not look boring to me but I understand if you are a fin all the way windsurfer now with the writing is on the wall for a end to development of fin gear it would be hard to watch

Just like when kitesurfing came along and windsurfing development stopped. Some people are behaving the same way kitesurfers did, saying what they did was the best and why are windsurfers still windsurfing.
Nico Goyard came from a sailing background and took up foiling. If he hadnt, and taken up fin, would he have been beating the best windsurfers? He is a very talented sailor. So far we have had 1 PWA event in Israel in iffy winds where a foil won, the Defi which has an upwind leg, and a foil won (sort of), a PWA in Croatia in more normal conditions for downwind slalom where fins dominated once the wind picked up to 7.8m winds. Lets wait and see what happens after a full year's racing including Sotovento & Sylt where the water isnt flat.

Simon Pettifer was 2nd at Weymouth Speed week.
Latest session using 7.7m & foil, 10s average 26.04 knots.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=372535&uid=4276

Previous fin session & 8.4m sail, 30.81 knots. Pretty sure he has been faster than that with 8.4m as well.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=360475&uid=4276

I'm not anti foiling in the slightest, Ive got one now to extend my sailing into lower wind speeds with my 8.5m and use it to replace sessions with 7.5m session and the water is a bit choppy and gusty winds. I dont think I will ever go faster on the foilboard than I do with the 8.5m and my largest board (Exocet S4 2004 & Drake 46cm fin), without getting more specialist foils and foiling sails. I currently have AFS W85 and f-1080 wing. I'll be keeping my fin gear.

How about other sailors here who use GPS and do both? Anyone going faster on foils in conditions they would be maxed on 8.5m?

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..

Freeflight said..


Did not look boring to me but I understand if you are a fin all the way windsurfer now with the writing is on the wall for a end to development of fin gear it would be hard to watch

Just like when kitesurfing came along and windsurfing development stopped. Some people are behaving the same way kitesurfers did, saying what they did was the best and why are windsurfers still windsurfing.
Nico Goyard came from a sailing background and took up foiling. If he hadnt, and taken up fin, would he have been beating the best windsurfers? He is a very talented sailor. So far we have had 1 PWA event in Israel in iffy winds where a foil won, the Defi which has an upwind leg, and a foil won (sort of), a PWA in Croatia in more normal conditions for downwind slalom where fins dominated once the wind picked up to 7.8m winds. Lets wait and see what happens after a full year's racing including Sotovento & Sylt where the water isnt flat.

Simon Pettifer was 2nd at Weymouth Speed week.
Latest session using 7.7m & foil, 10s average 26.04 knots.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/?mnu=user&val=372535&uid=4276

Previous fin session & 8.4m sail, 30.81 knots. Pretty sure he has been faster than that with 8.4m as well.
www.gps-speedsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=360475&uid=4276

I'm not anti foiling in the slightest, Ive got one now to extend my sailing into lower wind speeds with my 8.5m and use it to replace sessions with 7.5m session and the water is a bit choppy and gusty winds. I dont think I will ever go faster on the foilboard than I do with the 8.5m and my largest board (Exocet S4 2004 & Drake 46cm fin), without getting more specialist foils and foiling sails. I currently have AFS W85 and f-1080 wing. I'll be keeping my fin gear.

How about other sailors here who use GPS and do both? Anyone going faster on foils in conditions they would be maxed on 8.5m?

I mostly foil and cannot seem to get over 20 knots. My fastest 2 sec on my slalom board is 30 knots.

True that I mostly freeride foil so my gear is not optimized for speed, but I think its unlikely that I will ever reach 30 knots on my foil, cause to do so I would need to be extremely uncomfortable on the other points of sail. Meaning, I believe the foil gear would need to be optimized for broad reaching which would make it difficult to keep going on the other points of sail. On the other hand my slalom gear seems to be able to handle "pointing" and broad reaching equally well, just at different speeds

Garry is another local sailor who has done over 30 knots with fin & 8.6m sail. 36 knots with a 6.4m.
He has been foiling for 3 years and his best on the foil is 27.1 knots, with 6.4m & 350 Phantom wing.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=367498&uid=18265

I think its going to be quite a long time before 'normal' people go faster in stronger winds on foils than they do with fins. In light winds, yes, especially longer distances. In Poole Harbour the best speed spots are in shallow water areas, that wont help the foils.

One group that is working hard on improving speeds on the foil is the Sailworks team. For one thing, they just announced the line of FR Flyers for 2022, from 3.8 up to 10.0. Definitely race and/or speed oriented with FR cuts, aspect ratios, cams, and rig tensions.

This past summer I saw the Sailworks team out on the water with prototype FR sails, ripping up the river with pretty much the same speeds that you used to see them doing with fins. "Pretty much" means watching from the beach. They have been using GPS watches to measure their actual speeds. Dale has hit 32 kts on a foil.

Bruce Peterson last week showed me some new Sabfoil wings they will be riding with the Sabfoil race foils they ride now. Small, thin, and fast. Their boards for all this are Roberts customs, optimized for race foil geometry with small sails (5.2 to 7.0). Tiny stabs.

If anybody can figure out blistering speeds on a foil for us mere mortals, it will be Sailworks.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..... Meaning, I believe the foil gear would need to be optimized for broad reaching which would make it difficult to keep going on the other points of sail. On the other hand my slalom gear seems to be able to handle "pointing" and broad reaching equally well, just at different speeds

I'd say just the opposite judging from IQFoil Kit. Nico G hit, iirc, something like 32, on a throwaway day at the WC when they did an impromptu speed session. Given that kit has to do both slalom and up/downwind reasonably well, I don't think that for the avg foiler getting kit that can do a bit of speed and then crank upwind is a stretch. One of the things for a good VMG sail is that it has to be low drag and that can't hurt when you turn off the wind.

Also, think about the big criticism of the Tiberias PWA course - that there were some legs that were "too upwind" and favored the foil. That suggests a good broad reaching foil sail is pretty quick tighter to the wind.

Select to expand quote

PhilUK said..
Garry is another local sailor who has done over 30 knots with fin & 8.6m sail. 36 knots with a 6.4m.
He has been foiling for 3 years and his best on the foil is 27.1 knots, with 6.4m & 350 Phantom wing.
www.gps-foilsurfing.com/default.aspx?mnu=user&val=367498&uid=18265

I think its going to be quite a long time before 'normal' people go faster in stronger winds on foils than they do with fins. In light winds, yes, especially longer distances. In Poole Harbour the best speed spots are in shallow water areas, that wont help the foils.

Hi Phil
From my limited experience just going to the smallest wing available will not always buy you more speed, Garry may improve using a bit larger wing that provides more power and stability for now.
There are a decent number of weekend sailors each month getting close to 30kts in the KA72 windfoil group and very few them are on wings less than 550cm2
NB: So far at my weight of 79kg I can only go as fast Garry but I can do that safely on my 850cm2 wing
Cheers
TK