I've sailed a cammed sail for the first time last week. I'm not sure what they are meant to feel like, as I don't have enough experience. In comparison to my non-cammed sails, the centre of effort was noticeably further forward. I'm assuming this is due to the deep draft closer to the mast.

The pull on the forward hand was considerably stronger. Everytime I was powered up, sheeted in, going like the clappers (fastest I've ever been), I was on the verge of a catapult. I can't get in the footstraps yet, there's just too much going on at that speed for a newbie. So I ended up having many painful catapults, smashing into the mast/boom. The only solution I could come up was to move the harness lines a little forward so the pull on both hands were somewhat even or a little more on the back hand, which killed the speed and acceleration. I don't have this problem with my non-cammed sails, though I've been using them since last summer and had plenty of time to adjust.

Guy Cribb in one of his articles says the pull on the forward hand should be more than the back and it should be difficult to let go of the forward hand when hooked in. What do you guys think?

Any tips on what I could be doing wrong?

Get in the foot straps - thats why there there !
To give your whole body the leverage it needs to pin the sail down.

if you are not in the foot straps the first bit of chop you hit will slow the board down creating more pressure in the sail which will more likely catapult you.

Once your in the straps the board will get up higher out of the water and tend to ride on the fin more. you will plane over the chop a lot better go faster and the apparent wind in the sail will feel noticeably less.

as you get faster sails become easier to handle and more comfortable however depending on the board its the opposite :) big fat boards tend to get harder to control and tail walk.

Yes cribbys right and everyone who sails with more power on their back hand is chicken sh%t... most windsurfers have been sailing for 30 years and dont like to change things, but the truth is most windsurfers have them to far forward.

basically with your lines back you sheet in with your body weight, which improves your stance and helps you hold your stance in the gusts, converting the extra power into extra speed.

but this means more catapults while learning, which is why everyone moves their lines further forward, and then leaves them there for the next 30 years..


One reason an instructor will tell someone to move their harness lines to bias front hand pull is because 90% of intermediate windsurfers sail with the lines way to far forward.. And if u tell someone to move their harness lines 10cm back, they will move them 5cm back.. which gives the instructor the ****s so we tell them to more them 20cm back!!..

But sounds like creeping your lines forward was the right thing to do... cammed sails would be different cause they are more stable, and they still create power when not sheeted in fully.. which must be pretty hairy if your not in the straps yet!! I wouldn't recommend learning to get into the straps overpowered on a cammed rig... there would be to much going on.. (there are exceptions, cams do make lazy learners plane fast even when they dont want to)


anyway, sailing on the verge of a catapult is good fun.. when I was learning i hated catapults so I sailed with my hook upside down, so I could eject half way round.

Firstly a cammed sail will need adjustment to the harness lines V's a no cam sail.

And secondly the best thing you can do to fix your issues is work on getting in the straps.

If getting in the straps is going to be a new stage to your sailboarding, then get ready for the full fun factor and the addiction of this sport.

The Catapults are just one of the fun bits.

Hey Gustee,

I think you get the picture...you need to be in the straps.

Once there, you are in a position to dominate your gear, and catapults become far less frequent...after a decade of sailing I will still go over the handlebars once or twice a year, usually when I'm tired and in very heavy conditions. When it does happen, I keep hold of the boom and go with it...usually my own swing weight will throw me clear and keep me from hitting anything.

So make a concerted effort for those straps. Move them inboard and make them big to start with if you're having trouble. Once you crack it, you'll wonder how you managed to sail out of them, and I expect you'll significantly reduce your 'pults.

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

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Trousers said...

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

+1

Is your new sail a 2 cam free ride or a full on race sail, a lot of problems are not enough downhaul and if it's a race sail you'll need heaps, that'll bring the center of effort lower down the sail and give it more twist which is more control. And as said, get into the straps.

Don't forget to keep your front leg straight!

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da vecta said...

Don't forget to keep your front leg straight!

unless your going upwind..

Get into the footstraps. You can then turn your catapults into forward loops, and look like you meant it

What the fireman said.
MAke sure that sail has enough downhaul to stabilise the draft, and get into your straps.
The most experienced sailor will get flung over the front if planing fast in no straps.

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firiebob said...

Trousers said...

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

+1

Is your new sail a 2 cam free ride or a full on race sail, a lot of problems are not enough download and if it's a race sail you'll need heaps, that'll bring the center of effort lower down the sail and give it more twist which is more control. And as said, get into the straps.

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firiebob said...

Trousers said...

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

+1

Is your new sail a 2 cam free ride or a full on race sail, a lot of problems are not enough download and if it's a race sail you'll need heaps, that'll bring the center of effort lower down the sail and give it more twist which is more control. And as said, get into the straps.

+2, heaps of downhaul, pull with your harness bar as a handle with your leg bent and foot on the mast heel. Straighten your leg (ie use your leg strength) to pull on the downhaul. Or get a winch. The sail should be scalloped to 66-77% on the top panel and progressively down so that even the panel above the boom is scalloped. Looks like crap on the beach but is the only way to go. You can let outhaul out to give power, I rig with negative outhaul. The other day I took my 8.5 Koncept out in about 10 knots rigged with downhaul that tight. As I was struggling to get planing I let a little downhaul off (approx 1cm) in an attempt to get a bit more power. The outhaul completely slipped off so I had to tighten on the water by hand only. As soon as a 12 knot gust hit I was fighting to avoid going over the bars. Don't worry about overdoing the downhaul, you can't.

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frant said...

firiebob said...

Trousers said...

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

+1

Is your new sail a 2 cam free ride or a full on race sail, a lot of problems are not enough download and if it's a race sail you'll need heaps, that'll bring the center of effort lower down the sail and give it more twist which is more control. And as said, get into the straps.

+2, heaps of downhaul, pull with your harness bar as a handle with your leg bent and foot on the mast heel. Straighten your leg (ie use your leg strength) to pull on the downhaul. Or get a winch. The sail should be scalloped to 66-77% on the top panel and progressively down so that even the panel above the boom is scalloped. Looks like crap on the beach but is the only way to go. You can let outhaul out to give power, I rig with negative outhaul. The other day I took my 8.5 Koncept out in about 10 knots rigged with downhaul that tight. As I was struggling to get planing I let a little downhaul off (approx 1cm) in an attempt to get a bit more power. The outhaul completely slipped off so I had to tighten on the water by hand only. As soon as a 12 knot gust hit I was fighting to avoid going over the bars. Don't worry about overdoing the downhaul, you can't.

+3 Going over the handle bars is fun..getting used to it gives you more confidence later on going full blast..it happens no matter how perfect you trim everything

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GusTee said...

I've sailed a cammed sail for the first time last week. I'm not sure what they are meant to feel like, as I don't have enough experience. In comparison to my non-cammed sails, the centre of effort was noticeably further forward. I'm assuming this is due to the deep draft closer to the mast. The pull on the forward hand was considerably stronger. Everytime I was powered up, sheeted in, going like the clappers (fastest I've ever been), I was on the verge of a catapult. I can't get in the footstraps yet, there's just too much going on at that speed for a newbie. So I ended up having many painful catapults, smashing into the mast/boom. The only solution I could come up was to move the harness lines a little forward so the pull on both hands were somewhat even or a little more on the back hand, which killed the speed and acceleration. I don't have this problem with my non-cammed sails, though I've been using them since last summer and had plenty of time to adjust. Guy Cribb in one of his articles says the pull on the forward hand should be more than the back and it should be difficult to let go of the forward hand when hooked in. What do you guys think? Any tips on what I could be doing wrong?

Raise your boom slightly or shorten your harness lines so that you cant get in the harness whilst dredging or almost planning. Hang lower than normal and once planning get your front foot in followed by your back foot. Sail around like that until your arms lengthen by 2cm, then hook in.

Downhaul, point taken. It's usually set to maximum I can crank using the harness hook, both hands and one leg. I usually just use the outhaul for tuning, downhaul just gets left at that (too lazy). My outhaul is set to maximum I can using one hand on the line, the other hand on the boom. This ends up being at least a few cm of positive outhaul. From there, I just keep releasing it till it feels right. (It's a 3 cam sail, not an all out race one).

Footstraps, I'm working on that. I had a quick search on the forum. The recommended order seems to be start planing, front strap, rear strap then harness.

That order doesn’t work for me. I can't seem to generate enough speed unless I'm in the harness and hanging down off it. Once I've got decent weight down on the harness, legs free up to push board forwards so that the front leg ends up straight and front foot between rail and mast base. This also tends to sheet the sail in at the same time. I'm now near the straps but also on the verge of being flung off over the bars. So once I lift a foot to slot in the straps I’ve got little chance of staying upright. What have I missed?

Maybe:

I'm rigging up too big hence need to be in the harness too early? Smaller sail doesn’t give enough speed to be near the straps.

Perhaps go small sail but try bear off downwind as much as possible, get the speed, go for the straps, then harness, then adjust course more upwind?

I always sail cammed sails and putting too much outhaul on can lead to very big control problems.

Never rig to be underpowered!

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GusTee said...

Downhaul, point taken. It's usually set to maximum I can crank using the harness hook, both hands and one leg. I usually just use the outhaul for tuning, downhaul just gets left at that (too lazy). My outhaul is set to maximum I can using one hand on the line, the other hand on the boom. This ends up being at least a few cm of positive outhaul. From there, I just keep releasing it till it feels right. (It's a 3 cam sail, not an all out race one).

Footstraps, I'm working on that. I had a quick search on the forum. The recommended order seems to be start planing, front strap, rear strap then harness.

That order doesn’t work for me. I can't seem to generate enough speed unless I'm in the harness and hanging down off it. Once I've got decent weight down on the harness, legs free up to push board forwards so that the front leg ends up straight and front foot between rail and mast base. This also tends to sheet the sail in at the same time. I'm now near the straps but also on the verge of being flung off over the bars. So once I lift a foot to slot in the straps I’ve got little chance of staying upright. What have I missed?

Maybe:

I'm rigging up too big hence need to be in the harness too early? Smaller sail doesn’t give enough speed to be near the straps.

Perhaps go small sail but try bear off downwind as much as possible, get the speed, go for the straps, then harness, then adjust course more upwind?

Don't get too hung up about order of things, I use both feet in straps from waterstart in extreme conditions, hanging off boom with back foot first then front then harness when strong wind, harness then back foot then front when medium and harness then front foot then back foot in light conditions. The trick is to hang all of your weight from the boom whether in harness or not. It is easier to hang in the harness and use your arms for trim and balance but this tends to be more powered up so that you feel like you have less time, thats why I hang off boom in strong winds not hooked in. This is hanging right down low with straight arms and extremely bent legs. Foot placement is extremely important and what you do with your feet is critical.
For front foot first place back foot mid board just forward of footsraps and front foot somewhere just forward and alongside front strap. Consciously hang your weight from the boom and level the board out by pushing with the ball of your back foot (straightening your ankle), your front foot should now be free to wave around (try it) and slip into the front strap. Once it is in the strap don't stand on your front foot, Gently transfer the weight from your back foot to the front by actually lifting your front foot while pushing forward and and down with your toes /balls of your feet (not your heels). As you are now in the front strap you are attached to the board and this is possible. Slide the back foot outboard to a position where you can just get your toes into the strap by lifting the front of your foot ,curling your toes down and rotating your foot/toes back while maintaining slight heel pressure so you know wher the board is. ie you don't actually lift your back foot up. You can practice this on dry land by sitting on a chair and just doing the foot bit. You shouldn't have to look at your feet because the straps wont move. If you do need to look just a quick glance to orient yourself then back to sailing vision prior to executing the move.

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jp747 said...

frant said...

firiebob said...

Trousers said...

Make sure your sail is rigged to spec to ensure the sail is performing as designed...too little outhaul or downhaul will allow the draft to move forward under load, pulling you with it. A cammed sail pretty much retains a static centre-of-effort regardless of wind-strength (within reason).

+1

Is your new sail a 2 cam free ride or a full on race sail, a lot of problems are not enough download and if it's a race sail you'll need heaps, that'll bring the center of effort lower down the sail and give it more twist which is more control. And as said, get into the straps.

+2, heaps of downhaul, pull with your harness bar as a handle with your leg bent and foot on the mast heel. Straighten your leg (ie use your leg strength) to pull on the downhaul. Or get a winch. The sail should be scalloped to 66-77% on the top panel and progressively down so that even the panel above the boom is scalloped. Looks like crap on the beach but is the only way to go. You can let outhaul out to give power, I rig with negative outhaul. The other day I took my 8.5 Koncept out in about 10 knots rigged with downhaul that tight. As I was struggling to get planing I let a little downhaul off (approx 1cm) in an attempt to get a bit more power. The outhaul completely slipped off so I had to tighten on the water by hand only. As soon as a 12 knot gust hit I was fighting to avoid going over the bars. Don't worry about overdoing the downhaul, you can't.

+3 Going over the handle bars is fun..getting used to it gives you more confidence later on going full blast..it happens no matter how perfect you trim everything

I must go over differently.. got a massive whiplash last night.. no fun at all..

Got to get in those footstraps!

What board do you have? When I started I used a variety of club boards, some of which had the footstraps far too outboard for both my ability, I struggled unecessarily.

Can you move the staps further inboard? So they are more accessible.

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GusTee said...
Guy Cribb in one of his articles says the pull on the forward hand should be more than the back and it should be difficult to let go of the forward hand when hooked in. What do you guys think?

I followed Guys tips for all my sailing on <100L boards and it has helped me. I am not so sure how applicable it is for sailing stable cammed sails on much bigger boards that are ridden more of the fin. (most of the pics have him on a ~100 litre freestyle/wave board)

The board is a Starboard Go 133. I've moved the straps in board and left them loose as per the advice so it's easier to get into.

I made it into both the straps last time out, but didn't feel right. The nose was too high up, the tail felt like it was dragging. I either wasn't going fast enough or perhaps not enough weight hanging off the boom keeping the nose down. It only lasted around 5 secs so didn't get much time to workout what was wrong.

There's some wind on the cards for the weekend, 20-25knots, possibly too strong for me, so I'll take my 6.2 freeride sail (my smallest) and have another go. Hopefully elbow heals in time. I smashed it pretty hard on the boom clamp (another catapult) and can't straighten it out or bend it all the way.

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GusTee said...

The board is a Starboard Go 133. I've moved the straps in board and left them loose as per the advise so it's easier to get into.

I made it into both the straps last time out, but didn't feel right. The nose was too high up, the tail felt like it was dragging. I either wasn't going fast enough or perhaps not enough weight hanging off the boom keeping the nose down. It only lasted around 5 secs so didn't get much time to workout what was wrong.

There's some wind on the cards for the weekend, 20-25knots, possibly too strong for me, so I'll take my 6.2 freeride sail (my smallest) and have another go. Hopefully elbow heals in time. I smashed it pretty hard on the boom clamp (another catapult) and can't straighten it out or bend it all the way.

Sail somewhere where there is little chop and consistent wind.

I'd be using a 5.3 or a 5.8 wave sail on a marginal board in that wind.
Maybe you are chronically over-powered.
Check the bargain bin at your local shop for some old smaller sails.

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GusTee said...

The board is a Starboard Go 133. I've moved the straps in board and left them loose as per the advise so it's easier to get into.

I made it into both the straps last time out, but didn't feel right. The nose was too high up, the tail felt like it was dragging. I either wasn't going fast enough or perhaps not enough weight hanging off the boom keeping the nose down. It only lasted around 5 secs so didn't get much time to workout what was wrong.

There's some wind on the cards for the weekend, 20-25knots, possibly too strong for me, so I'll take my 6.2 freeride sail (my smallest) and have another go. Hopefully elbow heals in time. I smashed it pretty hard on the boom clamp (another catapult) and can't straighten it out or bend it all the way.

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Mobydisc said...



Sail somewhere where there is little chop and consistent wind.

Where do I order some of those?

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frant said...


Don't get too hung up about order of things, I use both feet in straps from waterstart in extreme conditions, hanging off boom with back foot first then front then harness when strong wind, harness then back foot then front when medium and harness then front foot then back foot in light conditions. The trick is to hang all of your weight from the boom whether in harness or not. It is easier to hang in the harness and use your arms for trim and balance but this tends to be more powered up so that you feel like you have less time, thats why I hang off boom in strong winds not hooked in. This is hanging right down low with straight arms and extremely bent legs. Foot placement is extremely important and what you do with your feet is critical.
For front foot first place back foot mid board just forward of footsraps and front foot somewhere just forward and alongside front strap. Consciously hang your weight from the boom and level the board out by pushing with the ball of your back foot (straightening your ankle), your front foot should now be free to wave around (try it) and slip into the front strap. Once it is in the strap don't stand on your front foot, Gently transfer the weight from your back foot to the front by actually lifting your front foot while pushing forward and and down with your toes /balls of your feet (not your heels). As you are now in the front strap you are attached to the board and this is possible. Slide the back foot outboard to a position where you can just get your toes into the strap by lifting the front of your foot ,curling your toes down and rotating your foot/toes back while maintaining slight heel pressure so you know wher the board is. ie you don't actually lift your back foot up. You can practice this on dry land by sitting on a chair and just doing the foot bit. You shouldn't have to look at your feet because the straps wont move. If you do need to look just a quick glance to orient yourself then back to sailing vision prior to executing the move.

Frant,
How do you go from a water start to straight in the straps? Doesn't the tail sink as soon as you get up? I have problems being that far back on the board unless I'm going what feels like 10knots.

I was lifting my whole foot to get into the strap, I'm going to try keeping the heel down and still keeping weight on it as you've suggested.

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KenHo said...

Maybe you are chronically over-powered.

KenHo, could be the problem. What's your definition of over powered? I normally rig up such that I'm using almost everything with some albeit small amount left in reserve to keep it under control under steady wind. If the gust hits, then I release excess power by sheeting out/turning upwind. Max power = max speed, isn't that the idea?

My understanding of over powered is that you can't sheet in fully and always have to vent out excess power to tame it.

Yes and no.
Maximum does not equal maximum speed when you are being thrown over the front or struggling to control the board.
If you are not in the straps, you are not looking for either max speed or power. You are looking for control and some jiggle room to allow you to make some errors while you find your way into the straps.
My largest sail is a 6.2 wave sail. The sail sizes you have listed are much larger than that.
Over-powered is when you are struggling or getting catapulted.

Water-starting straight into the straps is an advanced trick to use in over-powered conditions.

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GusTee said...

KenHo said...

Maybe you are chronically over-powered.

KenHo, could be the problem. What's your definition of over powered? I normally rig up such that I'm using almost everything with some albeit small amount left in reserve to keep it under control under steady wind. If the gust hits, then I release excess power by sheeting out/turning upwind. Max power = max speed, isn't that the idea?

My understanding of over powered is that you can't sheet in fully and always have to vent out excess power to tame it.

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GusTee said...

The board is a Starboard Go 133. I've moved the straps in board and left them loose as per the advice so it's easier to get into.

I made it into both the straps last time out, but didn't feel right. The nose was too high up, the tail felt like it was dragging. I either wasn't going fast enough or perhaps not enough weight hanging off the boom keeping the nose down. It only lasted around 5 secs so didn't get much time to workout what was wrong.

There's some wind on the cards for the weekend, 20-25knots, possibly too strong for me, so I'll take my 6.2 freeride sail (my smallest) and have another go. Hopefully elbow heals in time. I smashed it pretty hard on the boom clamp (another catapult) and can't straighten it out or bend it all the way.

I have sailed the 133 with the straps inboard a few times, the inboard straps are quite useable on that board unlike on some of the really big training boards.

From you description, what it sounds like is that as soon you’re in the straps you are sheeting out, which takes the power out of the sail, reducing both the forward force that moves you forward, and is reducing the turning moment that is holding the nose down, as a result the nose goes up, if you sheet in you will accelerate and the nose will come back down. A Wahoo is required at point :-)

Recalling my own recent experience on that board(I have been at for 18months or so), I would suggest the following.

If its a day when you know you going to get planning easily, which is going to around 15knots on that board, with your 6.2 and sloppy technique. When your ready to start blasting I would put both feet in the straps BEFORE your are planning, you will need move your weight forward, and the sail forward to stop from turning up wind, but you can certainly sail the GO like that. This won't improve you early planning but at your stage who cares.

Bear away a little and once you start to accelerate, your feet are already in place, so just concentrate on keep the board reasonably flat, by sheeting in as the board accelerates. You don't need to use the harness at this stage if you don't want to, but you will have to pull hard on the back hard to stay sheeted in as the board accelerates. Hook in when you feel comfortable.

I am not suggesting you should do it like this every time, etc but it helped me into getting the board fully onto the plan, in the straps, fully powered up, and in the harness and thinking to myself, 'ahah this is how it works'.

Once fully planning I would try and control my speed by heading upwind, i.e.bring the sail slightly back, stay sheet in, weight forward and board banked over to windward.

Then you can concentrate on all the usual progressions, catapults, getting into outboard back strap when fully planning, early planning etc :-)

I also remember having a great session when I was getting started using a 7.8metres twim cam sail (lighting) on that board, and the straps right inboard. But I think the wind was around 12-15 that day. A cam sail provides a very steady pull, which helps when you aren't doing anything to help the board plan, but it wont turn off like a rotational sail does, so will be too much for you when its windy.

Thanks to all who've posted. Lost of good advice. I'll head out again and should have more success armed with the info.

Great advice for everyone trying to get their GO going, like me.
IMO getting into the straps before planing means you might then be dragged out of them in the first gust.
Print out Frant's post for the gold therein :)
In a strong wind starting in the straps seems to involve 45 degree swing of the boards direction as you pull your back foot towards you. Full power instantly!!
And don't rig a cammed sail if you expect some overpowering, the turn upwind/sheet out solution is deadly in this case if the sail is not locked down . I now deliberately turn downwind more to avoid a catapult with a cammed sail.

I was teaching a friend who was struggling with the back strap in all but the flattest water conditions. Something that helped me and him was counting 1-2-3 and just go for it rather than thinking too much about it or spending too much time looking for the perfect flat water to go for it.
Personally I am hooked in and rising on to the plane before going for the straps in marginal conditions. Everyone has a different style/method/order to suit them.
Hope it helps.