I've purchased a 160L freeride board (cheers Quentin) and need to purchase a matching rig as my current 6m rig is unlikely to work on such a large board.
Being around 100kg I was thinking around 8m sail would allow me to sail these 12 knts days.

I've noticed 2 sails in the buy/sell section but these have cams, and given that I'm still learning water start, I am not sure these would be good for me at this stage.

Should I get these sails or wait for a foil?

An advice on the above would be great.

I wouldn'y worry about it having cams or not. If you are really struggling to water start you can always uphaul on a 160 litre board.

Until you are really proficient at waterstarting trying in such low wind will be difficult cams or no cams.

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Obelix said...

I've purchased a 160L freeride board (cheers Quentin) and need to purchase a matching rig as my current 6m rig is unlikely to work on such a large board.
Being around 100kg I was thinking around 8m sail would allow me to sail these 12 knts days.

I've noticed 2 sails in the buy/sell section but these have cams, and given that I'm still learning water start, I am not sure these would be good for me at this stage.

Should I get these sails or wait for a foil?

An advice on the above would be great.

In sizes bigger than 6.5m i would go cams for sure as they will be far more stable and be a bit more pawerful (what you want with a 160l board).There are plenty of good quality twin cam sails around such as NP V8/V6, Tushy lighting, Servrne C2 are some examples.

Most sail lofts have good twin cam sails. its just a matter of what you want and like the look of.

happy blasting

'If' you are going to have get a longer mast and bigger boom with your new sail and sail your 100kg's on a 160l board in 12knts, I'd be looking at a bigger sail than an 8m, around 9 or 9.5 and propably Camed in that size.

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DavMen said...

'If' you are going to have get a longer mast and bigger boom with your new sail and sail your 100kg's on a 160l board in 12knts, I'd be looking at a bigger sail than an 8m, around 9 or 9.5 and propably Camed in that size.

Thanks a lot guys, all comments are great. I may ring up these guys tomorrow to see if the rigs are still available.

Larger than 8m is scaring me a bit to be honest.

I am not a proficient water starter but I find my big cammed sail as easy as the smaller uncammed ones.

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Windxtasy said...

I am not a proficient water starter but I find my big cammed sail as easy as the smaller uncammed ones.

It's not so much the cams that make it hard, but the big luff pockets some cammed sails have. These fill up with water, and make them very hard to fly.

I hope to be able to uphaul 8m sail on a 160L board.
It's important for me to learn to water start as well.

I do have a smaller 6m foil which I could use to practise just waterstarting on windy days though.

I'm certainly not the best at advising technique but I found that the best piece of kit to help with waterstarting large cammed sails was a PFD. Although full on race sails do have large luff pockets, most of the two and three cam sails are fairly reasonable to waterstart if you are wearing a PFD. I was initially cautious of big sails until I lay a 9m on top of a 7.5. It is 20cm longer in the boom and the same in the luff. As a percentage change it was not that much bigger but enabled me to get alot more time on water. If the pocket fills with water, I lift the sail from the top of the mast and the water drains in about two seconds then swim forward to the boom and away we go. All my sails are cammed excluding a 4.5 and I haven't had any problems with either rigging or sailing.

Obelix.Check that your masts are compatible with the sails your looking at.

well i couldnt uphaul a 8.5 overdrive up in darwin.
i'm 77kgs, and that freaked me out.
waterstarting it was easy but.
Maybe i just need to HTFU.

Obelix,
My first setup was a 165lt board & a 7.5 cammed sail (Gaastra too, so huge camber), 8.0m shouldn't be an issue, although I must admit, getting on a smaller board with a 5.5 wave sail is sooooo much nicer on the arms & back.

As for the 6m, I've had a the 5.5 on my 165lt board...not ideal, but with the right fin, it works pretty well.

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Mackay said...

....the best piece of kit to help with waterstarting large cammed sails was a PFD. Although full on race sails do have large luff pockets, most of the two and three cam sails are fairly reasonable to waterstart if you are wearing a PFD.

...but enabled me to get alot more time on water. If the pocket fills with water, I lift the sail from the top of the mast and the water drains in about two seconds then swim forward to the boom and away we go. All my sails are cammed excluding a 4.5 and ...

Thanks Mackay,

I have a waist harness, and the standard PFD seems to clash with it a bit.
My friend has one, but he has a seat harness.

A "skinny" PFD would be nice. Is there something specialy created for Windsurfers?

re: cams
Thanks. I'm convinced now.
I spotted an 8.1m 2 cams sail, and the matching mast (4.90) and have contacted the seller.
This should also cover Stribo's advice.

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Sailhack said...

Obelix,
My first setup was a 165lt board & a 7.5 cammed sail (Gaastra too, so huge camber), 8.0m shouldn't be an issue, although I must admit, getting on a smaller board with a 5.5 wave sail is sooooo much nicer on the arms & back.

As for the 6m, I've had a the 5.5 on my 165lt board...not ideal, but with the right fin, it works pretty well.

Smaller board...
It would be nice, but, well, one step at the time.
Need to learn the basics, and cannot wait for the wind week after week.

6m - right fin
What has made your 160L board plan with 6m sail?
What wind and what size fin?
The fin on this baby is 52cm. Quite a dagger.

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Obelix said...

A "skinny" PFD would be nice. Is there something specialy created for Windsurfers?

Neil Pryde make a buoyancy vest that was designed for competition waterskiers. That's what I use.
It is very slim line and works with a harness. Never gets in the way and helps keep you warm in the winter! (Which is the main reason I use it. I actually bought it for my daughter.)

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Obelix said...
The fin on this baby is 52cm. Quite a dagger.

Practice your beach starts with the 52cm fin. Launch in at least waist-deep water. Any shallower, and you risk driving the fin into the sand when you pop up and onto the board.

It's often a confidence thing. Beach starting in deeper water is almost a water start, IMHO. Good luck.

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Windxtasy said...


Neil Pryde make a buoyancy vest that was designed for competition waterskiers. That's what I use.
It is very slim line and works with a harness. Never gets in the way and helps keep you warm in the winter! (Which is the main reason I use it. I actually bought it for my daughter.)

Thanks.
Could you tell me what model? I check their site and these pop-up:
http://www.neilprydewaterwear.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=4&Itemid=9

Hi Bristol

re: Beach starting in deeper water is almost a water start, IMHO. Good luck

Thanks, with the 6m sail, given 18knts wind and a shallow water (where I can touch the bottom) I can water start every now and again, so I'm slowly getting there.
How well I'll do with a 8m sail and the flooded cam pocket .. we'll see.
So many things to learn, but it's all a great fun.

Obelix, make sure you check the boom length too - may be that 220+cm will be too big for what you have or put your boom at risk of breaking by using full extension. My 8.5 overdrive meant I had to fork out for another mast and a boom.

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Obelix said...

Windxtasy said...


Neil Pryde make a buoyancy vest that was designed for competition waterskiers. That's what I use.
It is very slim line and works with a harness. Never gets in the way and helps keep you warm in the winter! (Which is the main reason I use it. I actually bought it for my daughter.)

Thanks.
Could you tell me what model? I check their site and these pop-up:
http://www.neilprydewaterwear.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=4&Itemid=9

Mine is a series 3000; an older model but looks similar to the 3000 CE they have pictured.
Ring the local windsurfing shops or waterski shops, see if they have one, take your harness down and try one out.

I still think you should go bigger!!!!
Don't worry - with your obelix strength you'll pull it out of the water no problems.
At the least - demo one.

Have a look at this thread.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=54759

enuff said.

I use a 8.5 freeride ezzy with my formula board and it's really not that hard to uphaul. My old 8.5 was a V8 and felt pretty much the same to uphaul and waterstart. I'm guessing at 100kg you've got some good strength, and you can also use that extra weight to help uphaul.

Like someone else said, at 100kg you won't plane in 12knots but you'll at least cruise well. You would really need 12+ metres of sail at your weight and unless you're really serious the extra cost isn't really worth it while you're still learning.

The 'Sailcalculator' which I've found to be quite accurate for my weight says you need roughly 17knots with a 8.0metre at 100kg to plane. I'm 91kg just recently down from 96kg and I know what a disadvantage weight can be in windsurfing. Takes heaps more wind to plane and you break aluminium booms very easy in big winds. One advantage is speed sailing.

Done the right thing going bigger. Best of luck.

Forget to put your uphaul on, amazing how quick those water starts come.

A lot of great advice. Thanks everyone.

re: cams
OK, cams are no longer an issue, which is great. Makes it easier.

re: boom size
I think I'll have to get the lot, mast/boom/sail...($$$)

re :uphaul vs sail size
No problems with the uphaul, only a slight concern over the waterstart.
But this was now put to rest. I'll have to deal with it.
Work on the planing, gybing, sailing.
Get a PDF and focus on waterstart later on...

re: 8m sail - at 100kg you won't plane in 12knots
But....I can plane well as from 18knts winds on my 16-18 years old Bombora Slalom board. 6m sail, 135L voume.
I'm now adding 25l (1/6th up?) volume and 2m of sail surface (1/4th up).

Still, I should listen to your advice, or I'll be back to this forum in no time bitching about the 8m sail being too small...

cams are still the way to go for waterstarting, stableness and power if you are proficient already..me thinks non-cammed are good for bump and jump mostly

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Obelix said...

A lot of great advice. Thanks everyone.

re: 8m sail - at 100kg you won't plane in 12knots
But....I can plane well as from 18knts winds on my 16-18 years old Bombora Slalom board. 6m sail, 135L voume.
I'm now adding 25l (1/6th up?) volume and 2m of sail surface (1/4th up).

Still, I should listen to your advice, or I'll be back to this forum in no time bitching about the 8m sail being too small...

The 16-18 knots sounds about right because 135 is still a nice floaty board, however because you are already floating quite nicely I don't think the extra board litres will get you planing much quicker, you'll be more steady, and will keep planing through lulls longer. Biggest factor to effect early planing would be an increase in width.

RE:sail increase. I plane nicely on my formula board with a 8.5 in 14-15 knots. When I once put my 6.5 on the same board it was more like 18-19knots to plane (no pumping). That same 6.5m sail on my 99L is about the same to plane but drops of the plane easy because it sinks. Most noticable difference for me with bigger sails is I keep planing through the lulls very easily, but it is also a much more rigid sail.

Also bigger sail feels much less forgiving in gybe mistakes, flying the sail before a water start (often fly sail from the tip of the mast) and if harness lines are slightly wrong it gets painful. The pro is I find using my small sails extremely easy after using the big one. I also easily get 3 times the 'time on the water.' It'll toughen you right up. (Flex)

Hi Ya Obelix, Here's a tip that worked for me with uphauling big sails. When your sail is in the water stand furtherout toward the rail of the board. pick up the uphaul and put your weight on your heels, the weight on one side of the board will lift the rail on the otherside. When the rail lifts up, it will lift the mast up clear of the water and any water in the sail will drain off making your initial pull much easier. As the sail comes up, transfer your weight onto your toes or step forward with one foot to rebalance the board.

I read alot of posts here when I was learning to light wind/big sail waterstart and found two things that assisted me greatly. I place my back leg on the board mainly to hold it steady. As a gust arrives I pull my leg in which points the board a little downwind as the sail starts to come up, rather than let it pull me up I let it pull me forward to the board straightening my arms almost directly overhead. At this point I am still mainly in the water but the sail is getting more towards vertical. The I pull myself up kinda like a chinup and onto the board with the front foot going either next to the mast or slightly behind it. If the gust is increasing you can sheet out a little to avoid a catapault. If you are on the power a bit bring the sail forward to bear away a bit more, step into the front strap, settle in, power up and go for the back strap.

I went to beach one day with the express intention of learning to waterstart. I got in the water at waist to chest deep which let me still put a foot down to get balance or re-align the board if required. As soon as I got up and going, I let the sail down and started again and again till I got it right!

re: easily get 3 times the 'time on the water.' It'll toughen you right up.
Yes, that's the goal. Sail in less wind and treble my time on the water, learn something finally...

Well it's settled now. Just brought home 8.1m sail with 2 cams, a matching mast and the seller added (a not very good) boom, so I'm all set for the first trip trip on the new board. Then, I'll know if the sail is not large enough

re: 135 is still a nice floaty board,
It would be, but the board is 15kg alone. I'm 100, the rig is fairly light, but still, it just sinks slowly under me.
A friend of mine nicknamed it "the brick".
Still, I'll keep it. It should gain some value in 10 years as a "classic"

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Mackay said...

Hi Ya Obelix, Here's a tip that worked for me with uphauling big sails. When your sail is in the water stand furtherout toward the rail of the board. pick up the uphaul and put your weight on your heels, the weight on one side of the board will lift the rail on the otherside. When the rail lifts up, it will lift the mast up clear of the water and any water in the sail will drain off making your initial pull much easier. As the sail comes up, transfer your weight onto your toes or step forward with one foot to rebalance the board.

I read alot of posts here when I was learning to light wind/big sail waterstart and found two things that assisted me greatly. I place my back leg on the board mainly to hold it steady. As a gust arrives I pull my leg in which points the board a little downwind as the sail starts to come up, rather than let it pull me up I let it pull me forward to the board straightening my arms almost directly overhead. At this point I am still mainly in the water but the sail is getting more towards vertical. The I pull myself up kinda like a chinup and onto the board with the front foot going either next to the mast or slightly behind it. If the gust is increasing you can sheet out a little to avoid a catapault. If you are on the power a bit bring the sail forward to bear away a bit more, step into the front strap, settle in, power up and go for the back strap.

I went to beach one day with the express intention of learning to waterstart. I got in the water at waist to chest deep which let me still put a foot down to get balance or re-align the board if required. As soon as I got up and going, I let the sail down and started again and again till I got it right!

Thanks Mackay,

Uphauling was not a big problem for me o far. As you said, it'a big sail, so it may become a handful. I'll remember your advice then.

Waterstarting is a hit'n'miss for me.
Given sufficient wind, I get up every 4th attempt, after 3-4 sessions.
Sometimes it turns into the wind, sometimes it's too strong, and it goes over, but I get it right every now and again. It will take me more than one session though.

Your conditions must be similar to the Perth's Pelican Point where the shallows go few hundred meters out waist/chest deep. Ideal for learning waterstarting as you can lift the tip of the sail while standing then float and play with the waterstart.

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Obelix said...
Waterstarting is a hit'n'miss for me.
Given sufficient wind, I get up every 4th attempt, after 3-4 sessions.
Sometimes it turns into the wind, sometimes it's too strong, and it goes over, but I get it right every now and again. It will take me more than one session though.

The one thing that made waterstarting click for me, and become reliable, was how to use my back foot. Once the sail is flying, put your back heel close to the middle of the board, just in front of the back footstrap. (You should be stay in this position by moving the sail and the board, although it's not super comfortable.) As you put weight on the back of the board, it tends to point upwind SO get it pointing more downwind by pulling your heel toward your backside. (Guy Cribb calls this the 'moonwalk' which kind of gives you an idea of the move.) As you point further downwind, your sail will power up and will generally just drag you out of the water. If I'm underpowered, then sometimes I'll need to really pull the board right under me, and point it quite downwind before then standing up. But if I've got a big enough sail, I don't need to get this fancy.

Best thing about this technique is that it also works with beachstarting - makes it dead easy and controllable - so you can get the hang of it before getting into deeper water.

As you put weight on the back of the board, it tends to point upwind SO get it pointing more downwind by pulling your heel toward your backside. (Guy Cribb calls this the 'moonwalk' which kind of gives you an idea of the move.) As you point further downwind, your sail will power up and will generally just drag you out of the water. If I'm underpowered, then sometimes I'll need to really pull the board right under me, and point it quite downwind before then standing up.

Best thing about this technique is that it also works with beachstarting - makes it dead easy and controllable - so you can get the hang of it before getting into deeper water.


Thanks Tristan

Turning up-wind happens quite often.

I noticed it works faster if I turn the board slightly down wind, but this often catapults me over, or just rips the sail out of my hands.

When I get the sail out of the water and my both feet are on the board steering the board position I get pulled out nicely if the wind is correct.

I'll be following your advice as it makes a lot of sense. Your description is very easy to visualise and tales less time to get the board positioned.

Thanks a lot. Very helpful.