I am not quite a novice, because I have been windsurfing for a few years, but I am far from being proficient, I have to admit. Usually I sail ( by choice and necessity) in very light winds ( 12-15 knts) with a Bic 293, which I find O.K. because of the daggerboard . Given my respectable weight( 85 kg) and such light winds, the minimum sail size which BEGINS (!) to get me moving is my 8.5 mt Severne Focus. Forget about any smaller sails! With them, the board feels...glued to the water in light winds. Even the 8.5, though, doesn't give enough of a boost, I find. So I was thinking to go for a larger sail.
I have been offered a good deal on a 9.6 Cannonball ( Gun Sails), but this sail has 3 cams and I heard cambered sails of this size are nightmarish to uphaul, especially when when full of water, as compared to RAF sails. Add to this that I am not young any more! The seller himself has warned me about this, because I do uphaul a lot, even though I have an Easy-Uphaul contraption.. Should I go for RAF sail, perhaps? Actually I never used cambered sails before, so I want to make sure I am not wasting my money! What should I expect from Cam vs No cam ? ( Pros and Cons)

I'd appreciate any comments on this.

Thanks

Francone

A lot depends on the sails.
Some cambered sails have huge luff pockets that fill with water making them very heavy and hard to water start/uphaul, others don't have such a big luff pocket and aren't a lot different to uncambered. I don't do a lot of uphauling, but I think the cambered sails staying fully rotated could be harder to get out of the water than one that is in neutral.
Some uncambered sails have bad bottom end because it takes a lot of wind to shape them up, other nocam sails turn on easily and these have bottom ends approaching cambered sails.

So if you want good bottom end and easy uphaul I'd go for a nocam where properly rigged the battens are only just touching the mast. and it only takes the lightest of hand pressure on the sail, between the harness lines, to fully depress towards the boom. If it takes a lot of pressure to do this, you won't have good bottom end. If you can't find a sail like this then go for 2 or 3 cambers, with a narrow luff pocket.

I have Gaastra Nitro 9.8 non cam sail and feels much lighter and easier to uphaul or water start then my Gaastra GTX 8.0 cammed sail.
Keep me planing from 8 -10 knots wind but above 15 knots I need to switch to my 8.0.

Hi. have you thought about a earlier planing board with a big fin rather than a different sail. I am 90 kg and my biggest sail is a 8.5m. 12 -15 knots and I am on a JP slalom IX 125 with a 7.5m

swapper that's not bad advice, I have a mate over 100kg who can do double wind speed in 12 to 14 knots with an 8.5 and he refers to his big board as the queen Mary, not quite sure just how big it is. but it does float him.

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swapper said..

Hi. have you thought about a earlier planing board with a big fin rather than a different sail. I am 90 kg and my biggest sail is a 8.5m. 12 -15 knots and I am on a JP slalom IX 125 with a 7.5m

How big should be the "big" fin you suggest? I already have a 2nd fin for larger sails, 50 cm long. In conjunction with the daggerboard, fully or partly extended, it should be O.K. with an 8.5, when going upwind.

Thanks

Francone

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Macroscien said..

So if you want good bottom end and easy uphaul I'd go for a nocam where properly rigged the battens are only just touching the mast. .

"..only just touching the mast ". Your suggestion makes sense and I already thought about it, but it seems to be difficult to rig this way, without giving a ....lllot of down-haul and outhaul. The problem is that the stronger the downhaul, the more the top sail twist and therefore more wind is spilled through the top. This is essential in stronger winds, but may not be appropriate in light winds where one needs to maximize the already weak windpower. But even with a strong downhaul,I found, the batten still stick in light winds to the point that I have to push the sail by hand to fully rotate. As to the outhaul, it can help to pull the batten away from the mast, but then it flattens the sail, which further depowers it in light winds. It is a sort of Catch 22! Perhaps I could free the batten a bit by pulling them off slightly from the pocket or even cutting them...

Any suggestions? Thanks

Francone

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Francone said..

Macroscien said..

So if you want good bottom end and easy uphaul I'd go for a nocam where properly rigged the battens are only just touching the mast. .

"..only just touching the mast ". Your suggestion makes sense and I already thought about it, but it seems to be difficult to rig this way, without giving a ....lllot of down-haul and outhaul. The problem is that the stronger the downhaul, the more the top sail twist and therefore more wind is spilled through the top. This is essential in stronger winds, but may not be appropriate in light winds where one needs to maximize the already weak windpower. But even with a strong downhaul,I found, the batten still stick in light winds to the point that I have to push the sail by hand to fully rotate. As to the outhaul, it can help to pull the batten away from the mast, but then it flattens the sail, which further depowers it in light winds. It is a sort of Catch 22! Perhaps I could free the batten a bit by pulling them off slightly from the pocket or even cutting them...

Any suggestions? Thanks

Francone

If the batten is sticking, then you *dont* have enough downhaul, and possibly not enough outhaul (but most people already put too much outhaul).... or you mast *isn't* compatible.

Whatever you dont, dont cut the batten... the batten pocket is a specific length of which the batten must fill it to 100%. In other words, your problem is elsewhere (such as downhaul or incorrect mast).

You already have a big board. You have pretty big sails (considering plenty of wavesailors get out 100x a year and nothing bigger than a 5.7 - 6m sail)

Given your other thread I think you are rigging your sails WAY too bagged out (not enough downhaul and/or outhaul) because you sail in light winds.
You are using the gear outside it's range so of course it feels crap.

Not trying to be rude but I think you are doing it all backwards. Instead of using a big board and sail in too-light winds, rig the sail the way it is supposed to be, then use it in enough wind. You will also find it is better in marginal winds as a baggy sail won't go upwind with the luff collapsing, and with the sail working properly it will plane thru lulls just on apparent wind. .

Techno 293, daggerboard up, 50cm fin 15kn winds and an 8.5? You should be planing all the time.

I did say get a sail that is properly rigged like this, not rig a sail like it that that's not meant to be like that.
The sails I was talking about will have some shape when lying on the ground unrigged, the shape is in the cross cut seems. But most sails use extra luff round to get their shape, these will lie dead flat on the ground unrigged and with stiff battens will need a lot of wind to shape them up.
It's fine for heavier sailors who use these sails in the recommended wind range, but light people trying to use them in lighter winds can have a problem.

In light winds most modern sail will still feel and work a lot better with the recommended downhaul than if they are bagged right out. You can use a bit less than recommended, but only a centimeter or so. Bagging them out feels like there is more power, but a lot of that is just sideways drag, it may help you get on the plane if you're pointing downwind, but as soon as you try a reach, they are just slow and heavy. with correct downhaul, it may take a bit more of a pump to get you on the plane, but once there the rig will be light, effortless and fast.
The twist at the top is not just about spilling strong gusts, it acts a bit like a modern passenger jet's turned up wings. It acts as a barrier to the flow from the high pressure side to the low pressure side of the sail, actually improving sail efficiency. So don't think that floppy bit up there is just loosing you power, it's improving you lift to drag ratio.

Some sails aren't user friendly, the worst of them, battens have to be kicked (or sail needs a huge pump) no matter how the sail's rigged, being a light weight I stay well away from them.
But whatever you do don't cut the batten, you'll just end up with an inefficient wrinkly sail.

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Francone said..

>>>>

"..only just touching the mast ". Your suggestion makes sense and I already thought about it, but it seems to be difficult to rig this way, without giving a ....lllot of down-haul and outhaul. The problem is that the stronger the downhaul, the more the top sail twist and therefore more wind is spilled through the top. This is essential in stronger winds, but may not be appropriate in light winds where one needs to maximize the already weak windpower. But even with a strong downhaul,I found, the batten still stick in light winds to the point that I have to push the sail by hand to fully rotate. As to the outhaul, it can help to pull the batten away from the mast, but then it flattens the sail, which further depowers it in light winds. It is a sort of Catch 22! Perhaps I could free the batten a bit by pulling them off slightly from the pocket or even cutting them...

Any suggestions? Thanks

Francone

Has anyone had much experience say using a 10m sail for example on a Bic Techno or Starboard 295 for example? The largest recommended sail for the Starboard 295 is 9.5 and the smallest 5.5 so pretty big range compared with a formula board for example. Is there much benefit to using that extra 1.5m for someone who is around 85kg?

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Dean 424 said..

Has anyone had much experience say using a 10m sail for example on a Bic Techno or Starboard 295 for example? The largest recommended sail for the Starboard 295 is 9.5 and the smallest 5.5 so pretty big range compared with a formula board for example. Is there much benefit to using that extra 1.5m for someone who is around 85kg?

The main issue with "big rigs" are that they are physically heavier - which means that you need enough board width and volume to take that weight-disadvantage into account.

Other than that, they can be fun! ...but you do need a suitably sized fin.

BIC 293 - 205 liters 293 x 79
SB 295 - 217 liters 295 x 72

i am now over 230 pounds - long winter
i sail a Mistral Equipe I longboard in lighter winds - 210 liters 372 x 65
i use this board in under 16 knots and it planes with 8.x sails NO PROBLEM
cammed or non-cammed
in 12 knots it will NOT plane, but glide pleasantly
i do have a TR-6 10-oh which is a cambered race sail
i am loath to use it in such light winds because it feels even heavier if there is NO wind
in 12 to 15 knots i have used the TR-6 10 m2 sail on a FreeFormula - constantly planing
prefer a bigger board/wider with the bigger heavier sail - do NOT wanna drop it #$%^&*()
even with an EZ-uphaul it is a PITA and requires strength and concentration
personally i am considering going back to un-cambered 8.x sails !!!
much more user friendly and lighter

and Franco - put the right mast in your 8.x and it will be fine !!!

Thanks Matthew, Joe. I think that I'm starting to go along the line of Joe's thinking that once you start to go too big the sails just became difficult to handle and not particularly pleasant. Even the gybing and tacking with a large sail is a bit of an effort. The reason I was thinking of the SB 295 is it will still just fit in the van and if it is light I can still get around without getting caught. As you say Joe a big sail in no wind really feels heavy on a raceboard and loads up the lower back a fair bit.

I prefer to use big cammed sails in light winds, uphauling them only gets more difficult when the wind gets stronger ie over 15 knots, and even then there are techniques that use the wind to do some of the lifting. The kids racing RSX uphaul them with no problems and some of those girls are under 50kgs.

I disagree that the extra weight makes them difficult, its not like you have to carry the rig, it plugs into the board and you just have to balance against it, the extra weight of the rig actually makes it easier to counterbalance against.

Tacking and gybing are no more difficult, again the extra weight and size provides a better counterbalance.

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cammd said..

I prefer to use big cammed sails in light winds, uphauling them only gets more difficult when the wind gets stronger ie over 15 knots, and even then there are techniques that use the wind to do some of the lifting. The kids racing RSX uphaul them with no problems and some of those girls are under 50kgs.

I disagree that the extra weight makes them difficult, its not like you have to carry the rig, it plugs into the board and you just have to balance against it, the extra weight of the rig actually makes it easier to counterbalance against.

Tacking and gybing are no more difficult, again the extra weight and size provides a better counterbalance.

Providing you don't have to deal with a wobbly board in subplaning conditions as well..

you wouldn't put a large sail on a wobbly board.....