Another Noob question:
Went out way past my depth yesterday, 16kns, open ocean, 3' swell, 180lt board with a BIG screw in centre fin and a 6m sail.
I was ok heading out on (what I thought was) a beam reach, completely botched my shaky jibe and ended up trying to uphaul. When I finally got the sail up in between swells I had to fight the board to keep it from heading straight into the wind- had my front foot in front of the mast and was just pushing so much pressure through it to make myself get back to shore.
I did this a few more times before every muscle gave out and I got back completely destroyed.
Why was I going up wind? Is it the centre fin? Sail too far forward in the track? Too overpowered for my level?
I've been musing on it for 12 hours and it's raining with no wind and I'd be super happy for any theories.
Thanks, sailors!

Yup, it's the centre fin verses wind strength. When it gets windy take the centre fin off. On longboards we kick the centre fin up to go downwind when the wind gets stronger

Ah. Damn. I wanted to leave it off but got scared and popped it in at the last minute (for safety!) haha. Oops.
And, mast base pretty much centre of the track ok?

Check out this video, especially at 4:00 in.

Toe pressure with the daggerboard will shoot you upwind, not downwind, especially if you're powered up and moving. It flips when you have the daggerboard out. A bit easier to get used to on a board with a retractable vs. stick-in.

I LOVE Cookie. So much great info. I thought this board had a retractable until I picked it up but for the price I couldn't resist. I'm going to tuck my tail and go back to the bay, wait for 10kn wind, and leave out the centre fin.
Fascinating sport in that every time I think I've made progressive steps forward, I change a piece of equipment or the sailing spot and it's like I'm brand new again!
That's ok, I'm only 3 months into my 5yr plan of becoming a fair dinkum windsurfer.

Just wait until you plane for the first time. Then you're hooked
Is your board a Starboard Start or Go ?

Even with that center fin, 16kt wind with a 6m isn't so strong that you can't bend the board downwind, with proper technique. You can't do it by tilting the mast toward the bow, which is what it sounds like you were doing, given your foot position.

Instead, keep the mast vertical in a fore-and-aft sense, but tilt it to windward, keeping it pretty close to your face by bending your front arm. (In other words, if you're on Port tack, with the wind coming over your left shoulder, you'd move the mast to your left.) Now gently sheet in with your back hand until the sail is just starting to draw. If you sheet in too much as you're starting out the board will swing to windward. You can prevent oversheeting by not reaching too far back with you back hand. Your front foot should be pointing forward and placed near the windward rail and pushing toward the nose, and your back foot placed with your toes about the mid-line and pointing leeward. As the board picks up momentum you can gently extend the front arm and pull in with the back hand, but gently. This is a reliable technique for a beginner and is also the framework for learning to get the board planing as you advance.

Wow- does having your front foot on the windward edge only work without the centre fin or is it ok either way? After my recent experience I'm ready to ditch the centre fin in anything more than a breeze.

On my JP ExploreAir (inflatable 260lt) I felt like I had much more stability and forgiveness but with this (2006 180lt) JP New School the lack of bow space was pretty freaky. The nose would fully submerge at times and as I caught a little wave in and moved my feet back to counter the tombstone I just headed straight up wind and across the face. That bit was actually kind of cool but all I really wanted to do was go straight to shore! ??

Needless to say, even though this rather large step (for me) was a bit of a bust, I can say that I did sail a little, leared a lot, exhausted myself in less than an hour and it's made me even more determined to figure this thing out.

Haven't gotten on plane yet but definitely hooked. Figuratively, if not literally- yet!

Probably a longer discussion, but yes, forward pressure through your front foot is the key to advancing skills, with or without a center fin, along with something called "Mast Base Pressure" (MBP.) Ultimately, you want the mastfoot to drive the board forward, more than your feet. This will mean that the mast has to be tilted towards the stern of the board, which, as you've found out, turns the board upwind. So, to counteract that, the mast has to be tilted to windward to push the nose downwind. Your front foot moves toward the rail to allow you to push down through the mastfoot even though the mast is tilted to windward.

That JP will work fine without the center fin, and the nose-diving will be cured by moving your weight aft, as long as your front foot drives toward the nose of the board, not the leeward rail.

Because it's nice to have something to hold onto, we tend to sheet in too much with the back hand. These techniques won't work if you do that.

Removing the center fin is a really good idea in more than 10kts of wind because it promotes moving your weight to the rear and needing to drive the board with the mast base which are essential skills for later on.

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Awalkspoiled said..
Probably a longer discussion, but yes, forward pressure through your front foot is the key to advancing skills, with or without a center fin, along with something called "Mast Base Pressure" (MBP.) Ultimately, you want the mastfoot to drive the board forward, more than your feet. This will mean that the mast has to be tilted towards the stern of the board, which, as you've found out, turns the board upwind. So, to counteract that, the mast has to be tilted to windward to push the nose downwind. Your front foot moves toward the rail to allow you to push down through the mastfoot even though the mast is tilted to windward.

That JP will work fine without the center fin, and the nose-diving will be cured by moving your weight aft, as long as your front foot drives toward the nose of the board, not the leeward rail.

Because it's nice to have something to hold onto, we tend to sheet in too much with the back hand. These techniques won't work if you do that.

I have read and re-read this 100 times and this morning I FINALLY got the concept!

Very cool.

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WindNoob said..
The nose would fully submerge at times and as I caught a little wave in and moved my feet back to counter the tombstone I just headed straight up wind and across the face. That bit was actually kind of cool but all I really wanted to do was go straight to shore!

Sounds like your front foot forward of the mast was sinking the nose when you caught a wave and when you stepped back to counter that you raked the sail aft which would steer the board upwind.

I'm not sure the centre fin was the main cause of your difficulty.

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Grantmac said..
Removing the center fin is a really good idea in more than 10kts of wind because it promotes moving your weight to the rear and needing to drive the board with the mast base which are essential skills for later on.

Don't like this advice, moving you weight to the rear will sink the tail, most likely cause you to rake the sail aft and turn you upwind.

You rake the sail aft when the centre of resistance moves aft which happens when your planing because the board gets on top of the water. Do it when your not planing and you will round up and fall off.

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WindNoob said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Probably a longer discussion, but yes, forward pressure through your front foot is the key to advancing skills, with or without a center fin, along with something called "Mast Base Pressure" (MBP.) Ultimately, you want the mastfoot to drive the board forward, more than your feet. This will mean that the mast has to be tilted towards the stern of the board, which, as you've found out, turns the board upwind. So, to counteract that, the mast has to be tilted to windward to push the nose downwind. Your front foot moves toward the rail to allow you to push down through the mastfoot even though the mast is tilted to windward.

That JP will work fine without the center fin, and the nose-diving will be cured by moving your weight aft, as long as your front foot drives toward the nose of the board, not the leeward rail.

Because it's nice to have something to hold onto, we tend to sheet in too much with the back hand. These techniques won't work if you do that.

I have read and re-read this 100 times and this morning I FINALLY got the concept!

Very cool.

Not cool at all, I have never heard of tilting a mast to windward to counteract a mast tilted to the stern.Try it in light winds you will fall in backwards.

The rig tilts to windward when you lean off it. You Lean off it to counteract the pull of the sail when its windy. When your leaning off it your most likely planing or at least moving fast. The reason its raked to the stern in this scenario is because the board has lifted up on top of the water which moves the centre of resistance (board in the water) aft therefore the centre of effort (sail) has to move aft as well to stay in balance. If the two opposing forces are out of balance then you steer either upwind or downwind.

You will find as you sail in stronger winds you will naturally step back towards the rear as the board moves faster and rises out of the water as explained above.

Don't try to force moving your weight aft prematurely, windsurfing, like all sailing is about balancing the pull of the rig against the resistance of the hull. As soon as it goes out of balance the hull will want to round up or bear away.

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cammd said..

WindNoob said..

Awalkspoiled said..
Probably a longer discussion, but yes, forward pressure through your front foot is the key to advancing skills, with or without a center fin, along with something called "Mast Base Pressure" (MBP.) Ultimately, you want the mastfoot to drive the board forward, more than your feet. This will mean that the mast has to be tilted towards the stern of the board, which, as you've found out, turns the board upwind. So, to counteract that, the mast has to be tilted to windward to push the nose downwind. Your front foot moves toward the rail to allow you to push down through the mastfoot even though the mast is tilted to windward.

That JP will work fine without the center fin, and the nose-diving will be cured by moving your weight aft, as long as your front foot drives toward the nose of the board, not the leeward rail.

Because it's nice to have something to hold onto, we tend to sheet in too much with the back hand. These techniques won't work if you do that.

I have read and re-read this 100 times and this morning I FINALLY got the concept!

Very cool.

Not cool at all, I have never heard of tilting a mast to windward to counteract a mast tilted to the stern.Try it in light winds you will fall in backwards.

The rig tilts to windward when you lean off it. You Lean off it to counteract the pull of the sail when its windy. When your leaning off it your most likely planing or at least moving fast. The reason its raked to the stern in this scenario is because the board has lifted up on top of the water which moves the centre of resistance (board in the water) aft therefore the centre of effort (sail) has to move aft as well to stay in balance. If the two opposing forces are out of balance then you steer either upwind or downwind.

You will find as you sail in stronger winds you will naturally step back towards the rear as the board moves faster and rises out of the water as explained above.

Don't try to force moving your weight aft prematurely, windsurfing, like all sailing is about balancing the pull of the rig against the resistance of the hull. As soon as it goes out of balance the hull will want to round up or bear away.

I hear what you're saying, but in OP's case I suggest the windward tilt of the sail for a very specific reason - to allow him to foot the board off the wind. From the other details of his post it seems clear he's trying to force the board off the wind by tilting the mast forward (as a beginner might in very light air on a very floaty board), which is burying the nose.

To be clear, the sequence would be to sheet OUT slightly, tilt the rig windward (you could think of how you start a flare-jibe), then sheet in mostly by extending the front arm (rather than bending the back arm) as you drive through your front foot. As the board picks up speed and starts to plane you can move back, and as the board acquires directional stability the windward tilt goes away too and the rig is raked back but upright windward/leeward.

As you point out, in strong winds there's a windward tilt to keep from being overpowered. This used to be quite extreme, if you remember the way we sailed in the '80s. On D1 boards railing upwind the mast came pretty darn close to the rail. Now that the leech breathes so much better the high-wind windward rake is less pronounced although the IQFoil guys use it a lot.

On second thoughts I think getting rid of the centre fin, as advised by others earlier, in moderate wind (16knts) is a good place to start, keep it simple. Try it without the centre fin, if nothing changes then start analysing rig position and mast footpressure etc etc but lose the fin as a starting place.

ie change one thing at a time

Trying to keep the sail COE inline or ahead of the board CLR with the center fin in place will bury the nose when there is more power.
I've spent time teaching on a wide board with removable center fin. You either need to size the sail way down or remove the fin.