Hi all ,just thinking about construction of recent boards,I always thought the outer pvc layer had glass on both sides as well as various other patches to increase the sandwich strength,but have broke a name brand board and it only had one layer over the top,i am also repairing a formula board and it has only 1 layer of carbon over the top and the pvc only bogged on is this the normal for boards now

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grich62 said..
Hi all ,just thinking about construction of recent boards,I always thought the outer pvc layer had glass on both sides as well as various other patches to increase the sandwich strength,but have broke a name brand board and it only had one layer over the top,i am also repairing a formula board and it has only 1 layer of carbon over the top and the pvc only bogged on is this the normal for boards now

With another name brand board, ive found much less than that on top in the front end. I guess it depends what kind of a board you're talking about, and what area of the board too.

The same board, whilst skant on material on the front top surface, has a wall of carbon innegra all the way round the rail/nose which has really saved it from catapult damage on at least a couple of occasions. I remember a friends board back in the day copping similar punishment and the nose cracking in two, despite there being more material to it. So they may cut back on materials, but i think to a degree, they've become a little smarter about how to put a board together.

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Subsonic said..
So they may cut back on materials, but i think to a degree, they've become a little smarter about how to put a board together.

Except for Starboard. They seem to have got less smart, their 2021 boards are now weaker than industry average and heavier than industry average.

Everyone wants lightweight performance.
That nose deck starboard side crunch was a major catastrophic hit.

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LeeD said..
Everyone wants lightweight performance.
That nose deck starboard side crunch was a major catastrophic hit.

no not every one,but its hard to buy a hd version of the boards you want .i can go just as fast on a 8 kilo board as i can on a 6 kilo board.i think just 1 more layer on the deck will give the strength i require

Quality control seems to be starboards issue. Sometimes they just forget the resin. I've had 2 boards which have failed within a few months and both times there's been dry fluffy cloth inside.
Then on the other side I've got a ultrasonic which has seen years of use but is still holding up.

Use less resin = eco = saving the planet .
Is this how Starboard get their eco numbers ?

Keeping in mind theres a few brands that come from the same factory, so effectively are prone to the same build issues. the board i was referring to is also a starboard, not sure what happened to philins' board though. Cracked in a strange way.

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Subsonic said..
Keeping in mind theres a few brands that come from the same factory, so effectively are prone to the same build issues. the board i was referring to is also a starboard, not sure what happened to philins' board though. Cracked in a strange way.

same with carbon bikes, all come from a couple of places which are able to produce very good or very bad product.Quality control is better for those who either pay more or have someone at the factory over seeing.
I think by buying starboard or any other big name brand you are buying what you hope is a good warranty.

I picked it from your description Subsonic.
That rail tape is nice but they are ridiculously skant on top. Knee strikes are devastating compared to other brands and their wave board can't actually be rolled around in small waves which seems a bit of a shame.

Its not about "a kilo". Its about care. You can make 7kg board with wildly varying strength based on materials, the orientation or even order of laminating those materials -not just how much is in there.

All brands get it wrong as Starboard used to be the strongest then became like this. Others have gone thru similar stuff like JP going from the good carbon innegra / wood in about 2009 - 13 then suddenly the awful change that resulted in same weight better 'feel' and they broke. Now back to something a bit better I suggest. Simmer and F2 waveboards had mast tracks sink a few years back, now all good. Fanatic Falcon with the PVc density change - great idea but its placed just where boards are most stressed and also on a biaxial cloth =crease in front of the foot. Duh.

My issue is Starboard have made a deliberately ridiculously light board and marketed it as the best one the pro's use and a 2 month wait to be specially made etc. Its not, its just light on. If a dumb bum like me can make a board last 2-3 times longer at same weight as a Cobra board, why don't they? Cos they only want them to last 18mths so you buy more. If they can trick you into thinking 6kg and $3K instead of 7kg and $2500 is good - even better for them.

Positives:
Tabou and RRD consistently awesome with their deck laminate for many years.
Severne waveboards double sandwich rear is tops it killed my saw

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Mark _australia said..
I picked it from your description Subsonic.
That rail tape is nice but they are ridiculously skant on top. Knee strikes are devastating compared to other brands and their wave board can't actually be rolled around in small waves which seems a bit of a shame.

Its not about "a kilo". Its about care. You can make 7kg board with wildly varying strength based on materials, the orientation or even order of laminating those materials -not just how much is in there.

All brands get it wrong as Starboard used to be the strongest then became like this. Others have gone thru similar stuff like JP going from the good carbon innegra / wood in about 2009 - 13 then suddenly the awful change that resulted in same weight better 'feel' and they broke. Now back to something a bit better I suggest. Simmer and F2 waveboards had mast tracks sink a few years back, now all good. Fanatic Falcon with the PVc density change - great idea but its placed just where boards are most stressed and also on a biaxial cloth =crease in front of the foot. Duh.

My issue is Starboard have made a deliberately ridiculously light board and marketed it as the best one the pro's use and a 2 month wait to be specially made etc. Its not, its just light on. If a dumb bum like me can make a board last 2-3 times longer at same weight as a Cobra board, why don't they? Cos they only want them to last 18mths so you buy more. If they can trick you into thinking 6kg and $3K instead of 7kg and $2500 is good - even better for them.

Positives:
Tabou and RRD consistently awesome with their deck laminate for many years.
Severne waveboards double sandwich rear is tops it killed my saw

Yeah, its a shame that the waveboards are lacking. would've thought they'd be building them the strongest, given what they're for. The tabou 3s plus i bought end of last year looks to be built solid.

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LeeD said..
Everyone wants lightweight performance.
That nose deck starboard side crunch was a major catastrophic hit.

I wish it was a catastrophic hit. I was standing in calf deep water with my back to the waves (light wind beach weather day, lots of bikinis on the beach). A broken wave came in and knocked the mast out of my hand so I fell forward on the mast trying to grab it. Water was shallow enough that the tip of the nose was forced into the sand by my weight, and the leverage point between the sand holding the nose and my weight on the mast foot buckled the board midway between the mast foot and the nose.

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Mark _australia said..
Fanatic Falcon with the PVc density change - great idea but its placed just where boards are most stressed and also on a biaxial cloth =crease in front of the foot. Duh.

What year was that? I had a 2009 Falcon which went soft on the deck between the mast track and straps, where I put my foot on step gybes.

Just remembered a friend had a Falcon, possibly 2018, that had a soft spot about 30cm in front of the front footstrap towards the rail. It looked like a join in cloth on the deck as it was in a straight line.

Phil,
I was talking about '18 models but I think the dual density (joined) sandwich has been in for a while. Move the join forward a foot, for about 50g weight gain. If that.

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Subsonic said..

Mark _australia said..
Positives:
Tabou and RRD consistently awesome with their deck laminate for many years.
Severne waveboards double sandwich rear is tops it killed my saw

Yeah, its a shame that the waveboards are lacking. would've thought they'd be building them the strongest, given what they're for. The tabou 3s plus i bought end of last year looks to be built solid.

I think I've only ever seen 1 Tabou with soft deck repairs at the rear. Our local 95kg+ heavy weight sails lots of km on his Manta slalom boards at decent 30knot speeds and he keeps them for 2 years at least and I haven't seen him have an issue, yet.
Are we including the Dyno in Severne's wave board list. I know a 70kg sailor who sailed barefoot and when gybing once he bounced over some chop and cracked the deck under his heel. I think its a lottery on whether your board is going to be ok or not, and then whether you get backup with the warranty.
Subsonic, what size Tabou 3S+? How long is the rocker flat at the rear, I was thinking of getting one, 86l.

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Mark _australia said..
Phil,
I was talking about '18 models but I think the dual density (joined) sandwich has been in for a while. Move the join forward a foot, for about 50g weight gain. If that.

Thanks for the info. I didnt realise they were using different density PVC like that.
I think mine was just a duff board, it was very light but had a relatively short life span.

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Mark _australia said..
Phil,
I was talking about '18 models but I think the dual density (joined) sandwich has been in for a while. Move the join forward a foot, for about 50g weight gain. If that.

Mark is it normal to only have 1 layer over the deck only and none between the pvc and foam,i went over the front and hit the board nose where i had foam ,it did not damage the board nose but broke the whole front of the board of in front of the mast track .a friend has advised me to get a carbon art board custom built to handle my weight and sailing style.i have a 2016 supper sport that i am always going over the front{sandbars and bad gibes}and it is still ok

Don't think I've ever seen anything with no glass under the sandwich.
Its really dodgy to leave it out as
(1) strength obviously
(2) less obvious, but even with a vacuum pump pulling it down and evacuating air, it is possible for resin or filler to sit between the PVC and styro with a big air bubble that just stays there (=delam). Bit like if you put a plate of glass or whatever flat on top of water in the bath and no matter how you move it around there is that one air bubble that sits under it and you just can't get rid of it without fully sinking one end of the sheet (not an option when doing a flat lamination)
Glass enables resin and air flow thru the fibres under the PVC.

One layer over is ok if its just up front, and probably 6oz, and not a waveboard....

Slack cost cutting bull****.

Yeah u need a custom. :)

Oh and whoever asked - Dyno I dynno as I haven't repaired one

Forgot to add to my good list - Goya and Quatro

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PhilUK said..

Subsonic said..

Mark _australia said..
Positives:
Tabou and RRD consistently awesome with their deck laminate for many years.
Severne waveboards double sandwich rear is tops it killed my saw

Yeah, its a shame that the waveboards are lacking. would've thought they'd be building them the strongest, given what they're for. The tabou 3s plus i bought end of last year looks to be built solid.

I think I've only ever seen 1 Tabou with soft deck repairs at the rear. Our local 95kg+ heavy weight sails lots of km on his Manta slalom boards at decent 30knot speeds and he keeps them for 2 years at least and I haven't seen him have an issue, yet.
Are we including the Dyno in Severne's wave board list. I know a 70kg sailor who sailed barefoot and when gybing once he bounced over some chop and cracked the deck under his heel. I think its a lottery on whether your board is going to be ok or not, and then whether you get backup with the warranty.
Subsonic, what size Tabou 3S+? How long is the rocker flat at the rear, I was thinking of getting one, 86l.

Its the 86L i have, i'll have to check the rocker tomorrow.

Phil - near enough flat from 900 back like a slalom board, with about 6mm tail kick starting in the last 150mm.
I can measure my 2014 model if u wish

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Mark _australia said..
Phil - near enough flat from 900 back like a slalom board, with about 6mm tail kick starting in the last 150mm.
I can measure my 2014 model if u wish

Thanks.
The 2014 cant be a 3s+ as they were new last year or the year before.

Other than my complaints about the Goya Bolt 135 2019 concave deck ridge getting dented by the mast (solved with mast base 3/4" spacer), the Bolt has been very durable including the foil box.