Why do neil pryde have flex top masts when most others are constant or hard. Does neil pryde handle gusts better with flex tops?

I've seen a nice Maui sail but that means buying at least a constant curve mast. I've already got boom, base and uxt extension by NP just not mast and sail.

As a newbie buying first gear it's ridiculous detail to work through...

Help appreciated... Noting I already know neil pryde and maui/severe/gastra generally don't match... Have seen the table.

Aren't masts nowadays mostly CC unless there are still a few that are flex? Am thinking sails this decade are very loose when rigged properly to handle gusts unless you encounter a squall. I've seen sails from 5yrs ago that already have a semi twist at the top for gusts or excess wind.

They all twist off as they are cut differently for flexy tip or hard top.

If flexy tip handled gusts better I think you'd find more masts made that way, and you don't. Thus I guess it is irrelevant.

IMHO

I suggest you start by checking the mast selector: www.unifiber.net/2014/mast-selector
This will give you an idea of matching up your mast/sails.

Choose the correct size sail for the wind speed: www.surfertoday.com/board-size-chart/windsurf

Next make sure you rig up properly. ie. Apply the correct amount of downhaul and then outhaul.

It's a leaning curve that we all have had to go through.....

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LoneWolf said..
I suggest you start by checking the mast selector: www.unifiber.net/masts-selector

This will give you an idea of matching up your mast/sails.Choose the correct size sail for the wind speed: www.surfertoday.com/board-size-chart/windsurf

Next make sure you rig up properly. ie. Apply the correct amount of downhaul and then outhaul.

It's a leaning curve that we all have had to go through.....

Guessing you didn't read the original post.....

Hmmmm.....I doubt that anyone here is truly cable answering the original question in it's entirety! My aim was to give the poster adequate information to help himself.....

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Homestraight said..

Why do neil pryde have flex top masts when most others are constant or hard. Does neil pryde handle gusts better with flex tops?

....

Flex top masts being less stiff in the top have slightly lighter tips. This allows faster recovery and more sensitivity to bending stress so yes they should respond better to gusts but the practical difference is moot. They are also correspondingly stiffer in the bottom for the same IMCS. You have to take both into account when considering compatibility so when you buy into NP you commit to the mast/sail system.

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ikw777 said..

A constant curve mast might give u more optoons in the future. Unless you are a suprrheavyweight start with an rdm mast. Above all dont buy any sail with cams in it.

+1 for the constant curve.

RDMs and SDMs of the same nominal stiffness have the same actual stiffness. A super heavy weight being more likely to bend the mast more than a lightweight would be better served by an RDM. They bend further before they break. What's more because they have thicker walls they are tougher.

+ 1 for camless. Cammed sails are much more sensitive to bend curve than camless. What's more cams can be a pain to rig and occasionally break. I wouldn't bother with them as a beginner. It'll be a few years before the tiny difference they make could make any difference to your sailing. If you get caught up in GPS and speed or racing you will no doubt want to go that way but if you want uncomplicated rigging, trouble free sail rotation, and easy water starting, camless have it all over cammed sails, and they give very little away.

The theoretical arguments for flex top masts are exactly that - theoretical. In practice, many other aspects of the sail design are much more important. Neil Pryde definitely makes some "freeride" sails that have very limited range, even with the correct mast. Gaastra makes some freeride and wave sails that have exceptional range with hard top masts. North sails are well known for a very good top range in CC masts.

Any sail will loose some performance when rigged on a mast that has a different bend curve than the one it was designed for. Sometimes, that loss is obvious, but often, it is not - the sail seems to work just fine. You only see the difference if you then sail the same sail in the correct mast. Has happened to me many times..

As others have pointed out, there are multiple reasons to go with a middle-of-the-road mast. The only reason to go with a mast at one end of the spectrum (hard top or flex top) would be that you know you want to stick with a specific sail brand. Even that is a dangerous game - Gaastra just switched from hard top to flex top (at least for their race sails), and Maui Sails has switched from hard top in 2013 to constant curve in 2014.

The Unifiber mast selector is a good starting point, but note that there are big changes between the years (google "Unifiber mast selector"), so check the year when buying used. If you are thinking about a specific sail, also check the manufacturer's recommendations. For example, North sails lists masts from Gun sails as just partly compatible, even though both are "constant curve".

The title of the post, "best sails for gusts" any modern sail should be able to handle gusts but a cambered sail will better carry you thru the lulls assuming during gusty conditions you will get lulls as well.
Dacron sails like the superfreak will stretch and handle gusts very well.

A few tips that have worked for me in gusts.
Rig a sail for the gusts and a board for the lulls. You don't want to rig too big a sail because when the gust hits you still want to be in control. Plenty of downhaul to let the sail twist off. Harness lines set a little forward from the centre of effort to allow the sail to sheet out but don't overdo this. A bigger board gets you through the lulls and when the wind drops you can still slog.

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Beaglebuddy said..

Dacron sails like the superfreak will stretch and handle gusts very well.

+1 for the Superfreak if it is gusty. I have an old Superfreak that I keep for those nasty gusty days when a film sail feels like it is trying to flog you.

To answer your question most sails these days all exhaust excess wind but it all works in unison having the correct board and fin these all help its not just the sail.

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Homestraight said..

Why do neil pryde have flex top masts when most others are constant or hard. Does neil pryde handle gusts better with flex tops?

I've seen a nice Maui sail but that means buying at least a constant curve mast. I've already got boom, base and uxt extension by NP just not mast and sail.

As a newbie buying first gear it's ridiculous detail to work through...

Help appreciated... Noting I already know neil pryde and maui/severe/gastra generally don't match... Have seen the table.

I cannot answer your question because I haven't seen a scientific test giving the answer and have only read bits and pieces from manufacturers as to why they chose stiff top flex top or constant curve. Manufacturers also change from one philosophy to another. Naish used to use more stiff topped masts, but have now moved more toward constant curve.

I have gone the stiff top route, and this is just my opinion. I like the stiff top sails because I think that more of the sail is working at the bottom end of the range. The way I look at it, the mast is twisting off from the boom upward and it spills the wind in a different way from a floppy leech.

To sum it up, in my opinion, my stiff top sails/mast work better over the range I use them in because the bottom end is better, but the top end would be higher on a flex top sail/mast. I don't have any scientific evidence for this, it is just my gut feeling. So I think I am using a smaller sail with a narrower wind range, whereas with a flex top mast/sail, I reckon I would be using a bigger sail with a bigger wind range.

By far the most important thing though is to have the mast and sail matching. They are designed to work together and I have tried using stiff top sails on flex top masts and the sails do not perform well, and gust handling is one of the first things to get screwed up.

All of the different sails will work well with the correct mast. You can set a stiff top mast/sail up and it will have very good gust handling. Thomas Traversa was the lightest guy in the Red Bull Storm Chase and he won all 3 events with a stiff top mast/sail. Phillip Koster uses flex top masts/sails to dominate in very strong winds at Pozo so they all work and they all handle gusts. Its matching the mast and sail that really matters.

I also have some sails that are power sails (Gaastra Poison) and some are handling sails (Gaastra Manic) so within their range, manufacturers will have different sails with different handling characteristics, so for example the Manic is the sail I would choose for gust handling, and the Poison for low end power. By handling, I mean the sail tends to look after itself more and make the wind feel smoother.

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Beaglebuddy said..

The title of the post, "best sails for gusts" any modern sail should be able to handle gusts but a cambered sail will better carry you thru the lulls assuming during gusty conditions you will get lulls as well.
Dacron sails like the superfreak will stretch and handle gusts very well.

My KA Koncept (cammed) sails handle gusts very well and as BB said - carry through the lulls. I used to rig them according to the conditions (not specifically from the rigging instructions).

I would assume that most cammed sails are designed for exactly that - to maximise constant speed regardless of conditions - light or gusty? Otherwise speed/slalom sailors would struggle to hold their stance in gusty conditions.

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Homestraight said..
Why do neil pryde have flex top masts when most others are constant or hard. Does neil pryde handle gusts better with flex tops?

In their brochures, yes.

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I've seen a nice Maui sail but that means buying at least a constant curve mast. I've already got boom, base and uxt extension by NP just not mast and sail.

You'll be absolutely fine with that kit, and a matching mast and sail from any other manufacturer.

All booms and extensions and bases and stuff are interchangeable. It's just sails and masts that really like to go together.

Hope that answers your question.

Where do I start??!!!!

In my experience:

-ALL Freeride and Race sails are designed to flex in gusts and give maximum possible range. The designers just go about it in different ways when using different mast bends. A really good hard top sail will work just as good as a really good flex top sail! It will probably have subtle handling differences and slightly different sweet spot performance but it usually comes down more to personal preference feel.

-Sails that are 'stretchy' are far LESS likely to be stable than those made from non stretchy materials!!! Millions of dollars of R&D have been spent developing less 'stretchy' sail materials!! For very good reason! Perhaps people confuse sails designed to take advantage of dynamic mast flex with sail cloth 'stretch'.....?

- A good cambered sail will always have a greater wind range than a good non-Cammed sail. There are of course handling differences..........

- Sails with more panel seam shape built in should always be less sensitive to mast bend curve than sails designed with less, which rely on luff curve (and therefore mast bend shape) for their foil shape. This applies to both Cammed and non-Cammed sails!

- RDM and SDM masts that test to the same IMCS stiffness and curve can, and do, flex quite differently under load in many sails!

-A good rig for a particular purpose is always the result of the sum of its parts its designer choose to use. Good is not just down to one particular aspect of the design! The WHOLE combination of board, fin, rig, conditions and sailor in perfect balance is what determines performance. That there folks is the tricky, elusive part!

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sailquik said..

Where do I start??!!!!

In my experience:

-ALL Freeride and Race sails are designed to flex in gusts and give maximum possible range. The designers just go about it in different ways when using different mast bends. A really good hard top sail will work just as good as a really good flex top sail! It will probably have subtle handling differences and slightly different sweet spot performance but it usually comes down more to personal preference feel.

They both rely on the top of the sail offering minimal resistance and they both rely on downhaul for initial tune. After that they rely on dynamic tuning. They both work to keep the lifting surface area optimal, but there is a fundamental difference. A hard top relies on overall mast bend to modulate leach tension. The flex top relies on the top of the mast. The less mass involved in the modulation the more responsive it will be so the flex top should be better in that respect.

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...

- A good cambered sail will always have a greater wind range than a good non-Cammed sail. There are of course handling differences..........

Again that's true but quantitatively moot.

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- RDM and SDM masts that test to the same IMCS stiffness and curve can, and do, flex quite differently under load in many sails!

I think this is wrong. Have you ever measured an SDM and RDM, proved the curve and stiffness were the same and then tried them in the same sail? I haven't but I can see no logical reason for the performance to be different.

I lifted this comment re cams v no cams from the gear review section. I think you'd agree that Sean is a trustworthy respectable source.

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SeanAUS120 said..

NWF said..

Also interested in any 2014 NCX feedback too....

Rgds
Al

I have the 7.5 NCX ... absolutely my favourite sail in the Severne lineup. It's incredibly stable for a no-cam... I've used it up to 30 knots in ocean swell (mainly cause I was too lazy to rig a smaller, cammed sail). It's swayed my whole way of thinking about cammed sails; I really don't think they are necessary unless you are racing where you need more acceleration out of the turns etc.

I'm using the NCX all the time these days :-)

I think this is wrong. Have you ever measured an SDM and RDM, proved the curve and stiffness were the same and then tried them in the same sail? I haven't but I can see no logical reason for the performance to be different.


Yes did lots of measuring with Daffy on sdm/rdm and the curves/stiffness were the same then tested it on a 5.8 yes there was a difference which is why I run rdm masts in 6.6 and lower and sdm in bigger sizes.the difference is something that you will have to try yourself as its just my opinion and will be endlessly debated . Still don't get why people insist on using non cammed sails, just too unstable and narrow wind range. Again just my opinion .Thumbs away

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NotWal said..

sailquik said..

Where do I start??!!!!

In my experience:

-ALL Freeride and Race sails are designed to flex in gusts and give maximum possible range. The designers just go about it in different ways when using different mast bends. A really good hard top sail will work just as good as a really good flex top sail! It will probably have subtle handling differences and slightly different sweet spot performance but it usually comes down more to personal preference feel.

They both rely on the top of the sail offering minimal resistance and they both rely on downhaul for initial tune. After that they rely on dynamic tuning. They both work to keep the lifting surface area optimal, but there is a fundamental difference. A hard top relies on overall mast bend to modulate leach tension. The flex top relies on the top of the mast.

I am with you up to this point.

The next bit is where I have difficulties

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NotWal said..
The less mass involved in the modulation the more responsive it will be so the flex top should be better in that respect.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this as it could be interpreted in a number of different ways. If you're thinking that 'responsiveness' is related to the property some people refer to as 'reflex response', I happen to think that concept is, if not a load of advertizing crock, at least quantitatively moot!

I could make a good case that a rig flexing dynamically from lower down could work better to adjust to the power in the wind and work to make the sail smoother and more controllable. (Dynamically smoother). Some great sail designers, notably Barry Spannier, has designed some fantastic sails with great dynamic flex on hard top masts.

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sailquik said..
- A good cambered sail will always have a greater wind range than a good non-Cammed sail. There are of course handling differences..........

Again that's true but quantitatively moot.

In my experience, quantitatively, the performance difference can be quite significant, especially at the bottom end of the wind range!

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NotWal said..

sailquik said..
- RDM and SDM masts that test to the same IMCS stiffness and curve can, and do, flex quite differently under load in many sails!

I think this is wrong. Have you ever measured an SDM and RDM, proved the curve and stiffness were the same and then tried them in the same sail? I haven't but I can see no logical reason for the performance to be different.

I have investigated this extensively. I have tested the masts for IMCS, and substituted the masts in the same sail. Performance and feel is usually quite different.

My working theory is that they test the same (IMCS) under a very narrow set of circumstances (30kg hung in the middle etc). But stressed with different loads, either more or less, they flex in a different way. I am setting up some more bend tests to get more data on this, but the difference in how sails behave and feel is quite obvious. UK Boards magazine did an article on SDM v's RDM a few years ago and observed the same thing.

Al

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I'm using the NCX all the time these days :-)

Each to his own, but note this part of the comment: "I really don't think they are necessary unless you are racing where you need more acceleration out of the turns etc."

In other words, Cammed sails give more acceleration out of turns (bottom end). If you are racing you would benefit because they are faster!!!!

Of course there are other compromises that might float your boat better, but for pure speed and power cams rule.

Personally, I want to make very few compromises. I just want to go as fast as possible!

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sailquik said..


The next bit is where I have difficulties

NotWal said..
The less mass involved in the modulation the more responsive it will be so the flex top should be better in that respect.

I am not exactly sure what you mean by this as it could be interpreted in a number of different ways. If you're thinking that 'responsiveness' is related to the property some people refer to as 'reflex response', I happen to think that concept is, if not a load of advertizing crock, at least quantitatively moot!

I could make a good case that a rig flexing dynamically from lower down could work better to adjust to the power in the wind and work to make the sail smoother and more controllable. (Dynamically smoother). Some great sail designers, notably Barry Spannier, has designed some fantastic sails with great dynamic flex on hard top masts.

Yes its reflex response as I understand it which is not quite the same as the mumbo jumbo that marketers use. It's just good old f=ma. There is a considerable difference in mass between a mast tip say 1/3 of a mast and 3/4 of a mast.

There will be a difference in the surface shape of each when loaded. I don't know what the significance of that would be. It's conceivable that the hard top would give a smoother transition from loaded area to twist off but I don't know if that would matter.

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sailquik said..
- A good cambered sail will always have a greater wind range than a good non-Cammed sail. There are of course handling differences..........

Again that's true but quantitatively moot.

In my experience, quantitatively, the performance difference can be quite significant, especially at the bottom end of the wind range!

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NotWal said..

sailquik said..
- RDM and SDM masts that test to the same IMCS stiffness and curve can, and do, flex quite differently under load in many sails!

I think this is wrong. Have you ever measured an SDM and RDM, proved the curve and stiffness were the same and then tried them in the same sail? I haven't but I can see no logical reason for the performance to be different.

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sailquik ...

I have investigated this extensively. I have tested the masts for IMCS, and substituted the masts in the same sail. Performance and feel is usually quite different.

My working theory is that they test the same (IMCS) under a very narrow set of circumstances (30kg hung in the middle etc). But stressed with different loads, either more or less, they flex in a different way. I am setting up some more bend tests to get more data on this, but the difference in how sails behave and feel is quite obvious. UK Boards magazine did an article on SDM v's RDM a few years ago and observed the same thing.

You say you tested for IMCS but did you measure the curve?
I'd be interested to know how the rest of it goes.

You say you tested for IMCS but did you measure the curve? I'd be interested to know how the rest of it goes.


OF COURSE

Testing the bend curve is and integral part of IMCS testing.

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sailquik said..

Testing the bend curve is and integral part of IMCS testing.

No it isn't. To calculate IMCS you just need a simple deflection measurement.
The calculation of curve requires 2 more measurements which you wouldn't bother with if you were just measuring IMCS.

Do you know if Boards measured curves or are you just assuming that was part of the IMCS measurement?

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NotWal said...

sailquik said..

Testing the bend curve is and integral part of IMCS testing.

No it isn't. To calculate IMCS you just need a simple deflection measurement.
The calculation of curve requires 2 more measurements which you wouldn't bother with if you were just measuring IMCS.

Do you know if Boards measured curves or are you just assuming that was part of the IMCS measurement?

OK. I give up its just to hard trying to tell some people Daffy

Testing the bend curve is an integral part of MY IMCS testing.

It was part of the Boards testing as well!

(Where is the Rolling your eyes face picture thingy when you need it?!)

What do AD (sailquik) and kato know about sail/mast technology anyways eh NotWal?

What I'd give for some of that knowledge (or tow).

And the OP is long gone! LOL!

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Sailhack said..

What do AD (sailquik) and kato know about sail/mast technology anyways eh NotWal?

What I'd give for some of that knowledge (or tow).

I don't know. I can only go by what they say.

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sailquik said..

Testing the bend curve is an integral part of MY IMCS testing.

It was part of the Boards testing as well!

(Where is the Rolling your eyes face picture thingy when you need it?!)

Ok, thanks. I'm really curious as to why this should be.
Let us know if you find out wont you.