Hi, I'm at the very beginning, completed some lessons on a 230ltr board with a 3.5 sail, able to gybe and tack (just). Now purchased my own kit (second hand), went for a 160ltr board and a 460 mast with a 6.5 Tushingham sail. I've been out on the water a few times, getting used to the smaller board but I'm finding the sail a bit too much for my basic level. My thoughts are to reduce the size of the sail to a 5.5 and to see if that gives me more comfortable control, the 6.5 I'm finding heavy with lifting with the uphaul and, being a beginner, I'm in the water most of the time. I just think the 6.5 is probably too much for me at this early stage. Your thoughts? Thanks

It depends on how heavy you are.
At your stage, and 100kg, I used the 6m a lot Then I moved to 6.7m which was a spot on.
To this day, a 7m seems a sweet spot for me.
A rule of thumb - 0.5m of sail for each 10kg...

Most intermediates will need at least three sail sizes so at least a 5.5 makes sense, but many beginners benefit from going much smaller than what intermediates are riding in the same conditions eg 4.5 which could become your higher wind sail after the learning process. also the type of sail can be heavier to uphaul so look for non cambered sails. One issue with getting smaller sails is often you will need a smaller mast and sometimes a smaller boom.

Generally people go up/down in 1m increments from 6m and up and 1/2m increments from 6m and down.

6.5 should be fine, but if you are having difficulty uphauling there are some things to help with that, get an easy uphaul by Chinook or make one by adding a strap with a loop to your uphaul so you can use your harness hook as leverage to uphaul the sail (good youtube videos showing how it works).

The other option, if you have a gently slopping bay floor, or lake bed, is to do a Guy Cribb "easy beach start". So with board in knee-chest deep water stand next to leeward board rail (down wind side) and between rear and front foot straps with left hand on board deck, then take mast in right hand and move so it is perpendicular to board while sail is flat on the water, and then turn boom so tail end touches bay bottom (so mast/sail is perpendicular to board and water/bay bottom). Then while facing board/wind with left hand on deck and right hand on mast and pressing boom tail onto bay bottom, push yourself up onto board using both arms equally and then while keeping right hand pressure on mast (and boom tail) immediately pivot right towards mast (with back to wind) and use uphaul to pull sail straight up out of the water (very easy) and then turn board into waves asap. I still use that technique (thanks Guy Cribb!), trick is to keep tail end of boom pushed against bay bottom until you pull sail up (keeping sail perpendicular to board and water). Also, find a location with a shallow bay/sea bed along the shore with an on shore wind, that way you can go up and down the shore and if you fall in just set up for an easy beach start. It really is easy!

^^^^^
Noooooooo.
The launch sequence has been activated .

Get a smaller sail. You might also have to get a smaller mast but even as you progress and find the bigger sail comfortable there will be windier days you want the smaller one still. Then you'll want a smaller board, then you'll want... Welcome to windsurfing

Learnign on 3.5 so 6.5 was not a great idea. Keep it though..... get a 4 to 4.5 for now

If you weigh 60kgs that sail will be big.. How much do you weigh?

Your weight and common wind strengths at your local spot are important to decide sail sizes.

If you are not planing in straps yet, it will be easier to progress with small sail, easier handling and getting less tired means more time on water. Once you get comfortable you can use the bigger sails to learn harness and straps.

As thedoor said, 3 sails needed for decent wind range, i would suggest you to plan these sail/mast combos before making a purchase. Assuming you are average weight and go out in around 15kn winds, for now getting a 400 mast, 4.7 and 5.5 (min and max for 400) seems to be the most cost efficient route, but if you are heavy and have very light winds (10-15kn) no need 4.7 for now.

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sboardcrazy said..
If you weigh 60kgs that sail will be big.. How much do you weigh?

82KG's, I've now gone for a 5.0 sail with a 430 mast, hopefully be easier for my current level. Many thanks

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Adanuff said..

sboardcrazy said..
If you weigh 60kgs that sail will be big.. How much do you weigh?

82KG's, I've now gone for a 5.0 sail with a 430 mast, hopefully be easier for my current level. Many thanks

5.0 is going to take winds in the 20+ knot range to plane, depending on the board and fin. On an JP Magic Ride 142 L, I used a 9.0 up to 16 knots, then a 7.2 to about 22 knots, weighed 86 kg.

Completely irrelevant Sandman, he's a beginner.

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Adanuff said..
82KG's, I've now gone for a 5.0 sail with a 430 mast, hopefully be easier for my current level. Many thanks

That should serve you well, 5.0 is a good size for beginners, and it will be much easier to handle compared to the 6.5.
As yo gain experience you will then grow into the 6.5 with time.

I know that an Aerotech 5.8 Freespeed sail gives support when doing tacks (from wind pressure on the sail) so really helps with balance, but an Aerotech 4.5 Phantom wave sail does not give significant support when doing a tack (and Aerotech support confirmed that), so the 4.5 is tricky tacking in waves compared to the 5.8. Do not know how much support the 5.0 you got will give, just be aware of that issue with sail size. My solution for the 4.5 when foiling was to cut hard upwind on the foil just before tacking, and then drop to the water as I step around the mast, minimizes time without wind pressure on the sail.

You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

A beginner needs to know about different sail types feeling different when tacking in waves . But most crucially , for the beginner is to understand the importance of cutting hard upwind , making tacking easier , ON A FOIL !
This guy is giving me so much joy .

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SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

If you are in 2-3' waves on the water trying to tack with a smaller board it helps to use the sail to balance with, and in order to do that you need wind pressure on the sail. I just noticed when I went to the 4.5 that there was not significant wind pressure on it when it was not fully powered up, and that made balancing in waves a lot more difficult since I could not use the sail to steady myself. But that 4.5 wave sail is more on/off versus a freeride sail like my 5.8.

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Sandman1221 said..

SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

If you are in 2-3' waves on the water trying to tack with a smaller board it helps to use the sail to balance with, and in order to do that you need wind pressure on the sail. I just noticed when I went to the 4.5 that there was not significant wind pressure on it when it was not fully powered up, and that made balancing in waves a lot more difficult since I could not use the sail to steady myself. But that 4.5 wave sail is more on/off versus a freeride sail like my 5.8.

You haven't read what he's asking.

He's a beginner and wants a sail to learn on. When you were learning did you go into 2' waves ?

All he wants to do is uphill, sail along and then maybe turn around, and that will probably last for a few months.

I'd say between 4.5m and 5m will do just nicely, a wave sail is good as its strong and you can set it a little fuller when the wind is lighter and lean slightly against the pull.

As a beginner you will improve and go faster. At that point, you will learn all about 'catapulting'. Using the smaller sail will allow you to have better control and less aerial gymnastics until your coordination gets better. At that time you will want to go a bit faster, naturally progressing to the bigger sail you have now. It is not rocket science, stay within the boundaries of your own abilities and expect to get better in a short time. In the meantime, the bigger sail will probably cause you more frustration and grief so opt for a smaller, camless sail that suits your conditions.

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Wind Smurf said..

Sandman1221 said..

SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

If you are in 2-3' waves on the water trying to tack with a smaller board it helps to use the sail to balance with, and in order to do that you need wind pressure on the sail. I just noticed when I went to the 4.5 that there was not significant wind pressure on it when it was not fully powered up, and that made balancing in waves a lot more difficult since I could not use the sail to steady myself. But that 4.5 wave sail is more on/off versus a freeride sail like my 5.8.

You haven't read what he's asking.

He's a beginner and wants a sail to learn on. When you were learning did you go into 2' waves ?

All he wants to do is uphill, sail along and then maybe turn around, and that will probably last for a few months.

I'd say between 4.5m and 5m will do just nicely, a wave sail is good as its strong and you can set it a little fuller when the wind is lighter and lean slightly against the pull.

Oh right, weather is totally predicable so he is only going to be on flat water? I found out in 2-3' waves that the 4.5 did not provide support in tacks because I was foiling in 20-25 knots, but you can have 1-2' waves in much lighter winds, and that will be a challenge for a beginner to balance on the board when the sail does not provide support during a tack.

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Sandman1221 said..

Wind Smurf said..

Sandman1221 said..

SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

If you are in 2-3' waves on the water trying to tack with a smaller board it helps to use the sail to balance with, and in order to do that you need wind pressure on the sail. I just noticed when I went to the 4.5 that there was not significant wind pressure on it when it was not fully powered up, and that made balancing in waves a lot more difficult since I could not use the sail to steady myself. But that 4.5 wave sail is more on/off versus a freeride sail like my 5.8.

You haven't read what he's asking.

He's a beginner and wants a sail to learn on. When you were learning did you go into 2' waves ?

All he wants to do is uphill, sail along and then maybe turn around, and that will probably last for a few months.

I'd say between 4.5m and 5m will do just nicely, a wave sail is good as its strong and you can set it a little fuller when the wind is lighter and lean slightly against the pull.

Oh right, weather is totally predicable so he is only going to be on flat water? I found out in 2-3' waves that the 4.5 did not provide support in tacks because I was foiling in 20-25 knots, but you can have 1-2' waves in much lighter winds, and that will be a challenge for a beginner to balance on the board when the sail does not provide support during a tack.

The last thing a beginner needs if they are out in swell that they shouldn't be in is a sail they struggle to uphaul. They are going to fall. Again and again.

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aeroegnr said..

Sandman1221 said..

Wind Smurf said..

Sandman1221 said..

SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

If you are in 2-3' waves on the water trying to tack with a smaller board it helps to use the sail to balance with, and in order to do that you need wind pressure on the sail. I just noticed when I went to the 4.5 that there was not significant wind pressure on it when it was not fully powered up, and that made balancing in waves a lot more difficult since I could not use the sail to steady myself. But that 4.5 wave sail is more on/off versus a freeride sail like my 5.8.

You haven't read what he's asking.

He's a beginner and wants a sail to learn on. When you were learning did you go into 2' waves ?

All he wants to do is uphill, sail along and then maybe turn around, and that will probably last for a few months.

I'd say between 4.5m and 5m will do just nicely, a wave sail is good as its strong and you can set it a little fuller when the wind is lighter and lean slightly against the pull.

Oh right, weather is totally predicable so he is only going to be on flat water? I found out in 2-3' waves that the 4.5 did not provide support in tacks because I was foiling in 20-25 knots, but you can have 1-2' waves in much lighter winds, and that will be a challenge for a beginner to balance on the board when the sail does not provide support during a tack.

The last thing a beginner needs if they are out in swell that they shouldn't be in is a sail they struggle to uphaul. They are going to fall. Again and again.

I have been there, that is why they need to find a way to make uphauling easy! Gave then two ways

Now I am assuming they are into windsurfing to plane, but maybe they just want to slog along on an underpowered board, oh yeah that is so fun!

Now I can uphaul my 7.2 off the water with one hand (100% carbon mast I got used for $130) using my easy uphaul strap (not using harness hook), so having a hard time with a 6.5 being too big. My guess is they could use a lesson on uphauling.

The other thing that is so important in uphauling is balance, and since they are in the water a lot that means their balance could use some training, a balance trainer like the Indo board or similar can really help train their balance on the water. I just do not like the idea of going to "easier" equipment to compensate for lack of balance and training.

Adanuff, as you can see there are some personalities here.....
Rest assured you asked a very specific question about your particular stage of learning, and the smaller sail is good advice. Flat water in 6-10kn is perfect for quite a few days sailing still. Getting a 5m was the right thing to do.
Ignore stuff about planing and so on for now.

Enjoy :)

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Sandman1221 said..
The other thing that is so important in uphauling is balance, and since they are in the water a lot that means their balance could use some training, a balance trainer like the Indo board or similar can really help train their balance on the water. I just do not like the idea of going to "easier" equipment to compensate for lack of balance and training.

What a load of crock in so many ways . Indo Board , pfft ! Next will be spandex active wear while on the Indo Board in front of a mirror with matching water bottle
The reason a learner should be using easier equipment is because .......... wait for it ......... it's easier
I'm starting to think this guy is pulling our chain .

I've got my GF (60kg)learning with a 5.0m sail, modern wave style on my LT board. She was going great over summer. This coming summer I hope that she will be confident to go out by herself and I can then go out too. She's learning & loving it.
adanuff keep at it with the sail that WORKS for you on the day!!!

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Imax1 said..

Sandman1221 said..
The other thing that is so important in uphauling is balance, and since they are in the water a lot that means their balance could use some training, a balance trainer like the Indo board or similar can really help train their balance on the water. I just do not like the idea of going to "easier" equipment to compensate for lack of balance and training.

What a load of crock in so many ways . Indo Board , pfft ! Next will be spandex active wear while on the Indo Board in front of a mirror with matching water bottle
The reason a learner should be using easier equipment is because .......... wait for it ......... it's easier
I'm starting to think this guy is pulling our chain .

I think not, "pulling our chain" implies a modicum of wit.

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SurferKris said..
You shouldn't need any "support" (!) from the sail in order to tack, never heard of that. The 5.0 will be fine, and much easier to both up-haul and to handle than the 6.4, and that is all that matters.

It's very common. The sail is a comparatively stable object to use as a brace while you swap sides.

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Sandman1221 said..
I just do not like the idea of going to "easier" equipment to compensate for lack of balance and training.

Why not? When people learn to sail boats they don't start out on a foiling Moth or 18 Foot Skiff. If they learn to drive, they don't do it on a Formula 1 car. If they learn to ride bicycles, they don't do it on a velodrome time trial bike. Using "easier" equipment is not only perfectly reasonable, but the usual and logical thing to do.

The other thing is that even using "easier" equipment is not easy IF you aim at using it incredibly well. A grand master chess player uses the same board, rules and pieces as a beginner but the grand master does it at a different level. A Tour de France pro's bike is basically as easy as the bikes used by a lot of weekend warriors but that doesn't mean that the Tour guy is compensating for anything - he's just using the same sort of gear at a different level. A World Cup Wave Champ or the #1 guy on the Olympic rankings on an LT is using "easier" gear but taking it to a different level to a beginner, so the gear isn't compensating for anything; it's being used at a different level.

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Chris 249 said..

Sandman1221 said..
I just do not like the idea of going to "easier" equipment to compensate for lack of balance and training.

Why not? When people learn to sail boats they don't start out on a foiling Moth or 18 Foot Skiff. If they learn to drive, they don't do it on a Formula 1 car. If they learn to ride bicycles, they don't do it on a velodrome time trial bike. Using "easier" equipment is not only perfectly reasonable, but the usual and logical thing to do.

The other thing is that even using "easier" equipment is not easy IF you aim at using it incredibly well. A grand master chess player uses the same board, rules and pieces as a beginner but the grand master does it at a different level. A Tour de France pro's bike is basically as easy as the bikes used by a lot of weekend warriors but that doesn't mean that the Tour guy is compensating for anything - he's just using the same sort of gear at a different level. A World Cup Wave Champ or the #1 guy on the Olympic rankings on an LT is using "easier" gear but taking it to a different level to a beginner, so the gear isn't compensating for anything; it's being used at a different level.

Look, if he wants to learn to plane, he is going to need to use sails in the 8-9 m2 range for light wind conditions. So a 6.5 needs to be an easy sail for them to uphaul, and for their weight it should be! He just needs a good instructor and/or some balance training, and some physical training too it sounds like. I recommend doing 3x15 sets of pushups every other day, will make uphauling a 6.5 off the water, without an easy uphaul strap, easy!

Anyone who wants to take the easy route to planing on a windsurfing board is never going to ever get there IMO. Now getting good instruction will certainly make it easier, but in itself, planing hooked in is a fairly difficult skill to master in the realm of sports, but boy is it a blast!

I wish they had birth control 70 years ago