what is any ones experience with the wind range of a 9.5 Raceboard sail and a 8.5?

what wind speed would you generally drop to a smaller sail , 9.5 to 8.5? Or would you go down to a 8.0?

thanks Nigel

I think I'd be using a 9.5 comfortably up to about 20knots, although this also has a lot to do with water conditions, somewhere with big wind chop and waves really limits your ability to keep the 9.5 out of the water. The key to doing well on a windy race course is being able to sail fast and keep out of the water! It really depends on skill in the end though some guys could hold onto a 9.5 in 25knots plus and still be at the front of the fleet and many others will be falling off everywhere as soon as the winds hits 15knots.

Hmmm, I find that 20+ with my retro 7.5 is pretty close to enough. I'm more holding on rather than sailing. But I do think the fin is too big for that speed (20kn) as the back is getting a wobble up big time. & I'm not a great sailor either!
(Sorrento:Port Phillip chop, its not flat.....)

Hey I do Phillip bay , and I'm 115kg , on my 9.5 in 20 kts id be crying for my mamma ! 6.5 sounds like more fun. I can only imagine what it takes to win a race overpowered , underweighted and over conditioned in the bay. Just planing hitting those odd 2 metre walls of water can sphincter puk.

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blazing928 said..
what is any ones experience with the wind range of a 9.5 Raceboard sail and a 8.5?

what wind speed would you generally drop to a smaller sail , 9.5 to 8.5? Or would you go down to a 8.0?

thanks Nigel

For me at 90 to 95 kgs, I used the 9.5 up to 15kts and the 8.5 over 15kts. I could hold the 9.5 over 15kts and up to 18kts, but I was more comfortable and faster with the smaller sail.

Also on Pt Phillip Bay, at 96kgs I'm comfortable on the 8.5 at 20kts with 128lts (not a race board) and 45cm fin, more wind and everything changes, sail tension and smaller fin.

jump to 5:45 for 25kts/9.5sqm,

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Krusty said...
I think I'd be using a 9.5 comfortably up to about 20knots, although this also has a lot to do with water conditions, somewhere with big wind chop and waves really limits your ability to keep the 9.5 out of the water. The key to doing well on a windy race course is being able to sail fast and keep out of the water! It really depends on skill in the end though some guys could hold onto a 9.5 in 25knots plus and still be at the front of the fleet and many others will be falling off everywhere as soon as the winds hits 15knots.

Krusty,
What weight are you holding down that rig with?? I'm keenly interested in this topic, hoping more race boarders will give their experience and advice. At 64kg all suited up ready to race - I'm also facing those strong wind rig decisions. Thanks.

I am opting for a lightwind 9.5 and a heavy wind 9.5 this season. Reasoning behind this is I can manage the heavy wind 9.5 up to about 25kn and anything stronger than that I am pretty much over an out to race so a smaller sail wont really make a lot of difference.

Thanks for the replies.
As always many differences. Couldn't imagine holding a 9.5 up in 20kn, especially on Port Phillip. It always seems to have a 2-3 foot chop in that wind, & the waves come from every direction!
Whats Moreton Bay like in strong winds? Choppy or a large swell?

The video I've watched a few times before. I look at the sea & wonder where the waves went to!
It reminds me of sailing at Monkey Mia on my old Cobra Race in 1992 [7.5m]. I went out in a soft wind only to have the hair blown off my head a few hundred metres out.
I think the only time I've sailed in high winds with flat water. No idea what it was blowing as I had no reference with the waves, but the pressure had me beat pretty quickly. Fun and I kept being worried I was going to hit a dolphin or something. I later learnt while prawn fishing off Point Samson , that I would never hit a dolphin..they way too fast!

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blazing928 said..

Whats Moreton Bay like in strong winds? Choppy or a large swell?

It depends where you sail. In 20kts, Waterloo Bay, where I believe they are holding the Raceboard Worlds, has steep confused chop.

If I preferred light winds, I'd be tempted to have a 7.4 as my second sail. The last time I did the nats, Martin Stone was still running in around 7th spot in the heavy air races at 60+kg using a 7.4, so he was far from slow - and he was beating everyone who was struggling with an 8.5 or 9.5. One extra fall and slow recovery will make a lot of difference. If it blows, just getting around neatly every race will put a light-wind specialist into a pretty good position.

Disclaimer - I haven't sailed at RQ and haven't done a RB nats for a few years.

Chris,
Can you define your "heavy air" in knots in regard to Marty's 7.4 day?
Maybe you can comment on what is the strongest winds that an RB World's is allowed to start a race in. I had thought, that like most other skiff/small boat classes that if it was regularly gusting over 25 knots they are obliged to postpone or abandon?

Moreton bay wind stats;

6.2% calm 0.6 -6.8kn
21% gentle 6.8-10.7kn
32% moderate 10.7 - 15.6kn swell around 1.5m?
21% fresh 16-21kn
14% strong 21-27kn
5% near gale 27-34kn
1% gale 33- 40kn
0.07% strong gale 40-48kn
0.07% storm 47-55kn
0.01% violent 55-63kn

20% ESE wind the main wind direction!
10% E not above strong
10% SE not above strong
11% N

I'm still asking around regarding the chop conditions.
Looking at the above I would have to be good with a sail in high 20knts.
As Chris comments, staying upright is the goal!

I'm usually around 75kgs. The real issue with big sails and strong winds is being fit and strong enough to maintain control through an entire race. For example if I have to race a potential 3 back to back races in 20knots there's no way I would choose a 9.5, I'd certainly downsize to the 8.5. But if it was just 1 race the 9.5 wouldn't be an issue. The biggest hindrance to holding that 9.5 down when it's windy are tacks and gybes, so you need to get these down comfortably when it's blowing, I've got no problem going from A to B when it's windy, the issues only arise when I've got to turn around! Gybing a race board in 20knots + with chop is a mission, but it has to be done to win a race. Holding your board still at a startling when it's windy is also a hard task, I can really remember struggling at sanctuary point last year in the last race.

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I'm still asking around regarding the chop conditions.

In a 20kt NEer you can get up to 1m high chop in the middle of Waterloo bay

Hi Nigel,

I think some on water reseach is needed! Does Victoria have many Race boards sailing? I'll give it a crack on the bay.

aus109, hi, no I think Vic has very few raceboards. Apparently some at Parkdale SC race. I don't feel like another $400 membership, so Ill not bother there. I sail out of Sorrento, SSCBC.

Sailworks are modifying a NX9.6 to a 9.5 with some adjustments' to the foot to suit a raceboard. They & the local supplier, Chris at Wind Surf Systems, have been incredibly helpful. I 'm pretty sure my second sail will be around a 8m. Either a NX7.8 or a retro 8m or my retro 7.5. I agree with the above regarding being strong & able to hold up a sail in high winds for three races. Better to be on it and aggressive rather than crapping on self to hold on.
At the end of the day I'm there to have fun & the experience, not get pissed off or injured trying to be a legend!

September school holidays in 3 weeks will be the start of training. Still a week of skiing to go! Anyway I've entered, got a sail number, 907, accom booked, road trip time in 13 weeks or so....excited.

Sail size and range seems to be stretching way up over the traditional range especially when they fall in the hands of well trained RS-X sailors who carry their gear way longer than normal racing sailors.

I have heard reports of new sails and rigs designed and custom built in Australia/New Zealand by Wavesails for the Raceboard Worlds this year, these setups go all the way up to 25 knots upwind due to their ability to have the shape controlled independently from downhaul tension or mast bend.

The sail is a wide pocket full carbon fibre (inc cams battens and the lot) membrane and rigs on a high modulus D shaped single piece mast that flexes differently sideways and also back / front.

Of course this is all very much off-the shelf gear built for a few riders that want to challenge the champ, I expect after the worlds this gear will become production and the pricey tag should drop with perhaps a two piece tube rig.

Defo can use in fairly high winds, though whether it's fun is questionable!?

I have a 9.5 Severne RB sail, but using a NP 520 mast. I don't think it's quite the best combo, the top twisting off but not much further down.

The vid below was a mate and myself getting caught out on a 25 knot plus day, though summer winds so warm air would have taken some power out. We decided to call it quits very quickly as wasn't fun and tried looking for shelter near land! Would have been interesting to use my 8.4m RSS sail that day, might have been fine.

Would a 9.5m Raceboard sail plane quicker than a 9.5m Severne Overdrive?

I've looked at the specs - the Raceboard sails have a much longer boom and luff.

Do you have to use the Raceboard sails in long board competition?

I once used a 8.5m Raceboard Series sail - crazy light.

You can use any sail you like with Raceboards, max size 9.5 with a 3% leeway....hmmm!! Or there is a 7.8m class also

Apparently the RB sail cut suits the long board more, like a Formula sail cut suits Formula boards. All to do with centre of effort & how that relates to the mast position & fin. Not sure why the RSX sail suits long boards so well, in my naivety, I would've though it was more cut like a formula sail. But the RSX is very adjustable to suit conditions.

I think an overdrive will plane very quickly but the cammed sails will hold speed thru the lulls better & then have more power, where the others will bleed off power when overpowered. [Please correct me if I'm wrong here, still learning about this stuff]

I been sailing on my Mistral EQ1.5 with a Retro 7.5 all last week in any thing from 5 -25kn. Its accelerated very easily onto the plane and with enough downhaul, 10cm past the cog, was very nice at mid 20kn breeze, easily controlled, not overpowered, top speed 19kn with out much effort. At a minimum an adjustable out haul is a necessity.

I just got my new Sailworks NX 9.5 [recut 9.6] & Retro 8.5 today, so I hope to try it on the weekend. I've been hanging out for bigger sails in the lighter winds.
nigel.





New Retro 8.5

Here is my take on RB sails, I'm not an expert by any means.

RB sails are softer, less rigid than SB sails.

SB sails need to be rigid to keep the COE stable so to maintain control on such a short light board, else it flies out of control, spins out etc.

RB sails need to be able to be adjust from 5 - 25 knots so need to be softer to allow that adjustment. They need a full shape for off the wind, flat up wind.

Also I think it is the softness of the sail that makes them feel lighter, plus they are lighter. On a SB sail it is more of the carving that steers the board, on the RB the sail is used to steer the board. Because the SB sail is so stiff and heavy, when it is forced into non laminar flow positions at lower speeds it feels really heavy as the wind is pushing from wherever once it stall out making it a real handful and unpredictable.

The RB sail distorts and allows the sail to still maintain flow in degrees of out of trim so the power is more predictable, less on and off. Makes it easier to handle as you can feel as it goes out of trim gradually. It is also lighter so when in out of balance positions the weight is less noticeable to the SB sails. Could also be the COE shifts helping to steer the board so the rig doesn't need to move so much, vs needing to shift the whole rig to steer which feels heavy once past the balance point.

That's my take, I have noticed for sure using my NP RRS 10m sail it is brutal as compared to the 9.5m Serverne RB sail.

I have read that in lighter conditions the RSX sail is less ideal to dedicated RB sails. I bet though in powered up conditions it works well.

I have used my newish 2015 NP RSS 7.8m sail on the Phantom 377 when the wind dropped and I just wanted to get out as it was rigged. It was very nice to be honest, the fullness of that sail working well.

I'll have to try my NP RSS 8.4 one day when windy as might be a good option if it works.

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Krusty said..
I think I'd be using a 9.5 comfortably up to about 20knots, although this also has a lot to do with water conditions, somewhere with big wind chop and waves really limits your ability to keep the 9.5 out of the water. The key to doing well on a windy race course is being able to sail fast and keep out of the water! It really depends on skill in the end though some guys could hold onto a 9.5 in 25knots plus and still be at the front of the fleet and many others will be falling off everywhere as soon as the winds hits 15knots.

75kgs + 9.5m + 20knots - I'd like to see that! I'm 90+kgs and I'm comfortably powered up with a 7.0 in 20knots.

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sausage said..

Krusty said..
I think I'd be using a 9.5 comfortably up to about 20knots, although this also has a lot to do with water conditions, somewhere with big wind chop and waves really limits your ability to keep the 9.5 out of the water. The key to doing well on a windy race course is being able to sail fast and keep out of the water! It really depends on skill in the end though some guys could hold onto a 9.5 in 25knots plus and still be at the front of the fleet and many others will be falling off everywhere as soon as the winds hits 15knots.

75kgs + 9.5m + 20knots - I'd like to see that! I'm 90+kgs and I'm comfortably powered up with a 7.0 in 20knots.

Sausage but that's on a short board right?

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scottydog said..

sausage said..

Krusty said..
I think I'd be using a 9.5 comfortably up to about 20knots, although this also has a lot to do with water conditions, somewhere with big wind chop and waves really limits your ability to keep the 9.5 out of the water. The key to doing well on a windy race course is being able to sail fast and keep out of the water! It really depends on skill in the end though some guys could hold onto a 9.5 in 25knots plus and still be at the front of the fleet and many others will be falling off everywhere as soon as the winds hits 15knots.

75kgs + 9.5m + 20knots - I'd like to see that! I'm 90+kgs and I'm comfortably powered up with a 7.0 in 20knots.

Sausage but that's on a short board right?

Yeah short board. I'm not talking 20knot gusts here, I'm talking a solid 20knot breeze irrespective of board type.

Yeah figured that. On a heavy long board can easily add a whole lot of knots to the wind range. It's not fun, but you just have to fight the rig, the board behaves being so heavy. Same setup on a shortboard would be impossible!

9.5m + 40 knots......

Not 40 knots. The anerometer is sitting on about 28 then flicks to a microsecond to 38; probably a glitch.

In a real 30 knots + - as determined by professionally set-up and maintained big-boat instruments rather than a hand-held anerometer - the little pieces of white water on the crests are coming off and being blow downwind in sheets of spray. That's a nice 25 knots or so in the vid, in the gusts.

Anyone who claims that is 40 is welcome to come and do a Sydney to Hobart and meet a real 30+ knots.....

Who really knows, probably 30 gusting upwards which is mad enough to me! Sure looks windy on the vid, the flat water from the sheltering makes it deceptive, but does make it doable vs open ocean with swell to contend with. Be curious to know if it was warm or cold air also as that factors in a lot also.

Found a write up on it, they claiming up to 50 knot gusts! I'm sure the local weather reports could be looked up for verification or not.

$1000 Winner Takes All Speed Session as Wind Gusts to 50 Knots. It didn’t take long for the Race Committee to pull the plug on racing today. The committee boat anchored and with a few minutes their bow roller was bent out of shape as the first 40 knot gust came through. White caps transformed into vapor as the sea became streaked with white lines…The AP over A went up and racing was cancelled for the day. The forecast for tomorrow is more of the same. The medal races are scheduled for 1200hrs as usual. We’ll keep our fingers crossed on that.In the meantime, a <1000 Winner Takes All Speed Session was organized inside the sea wall. 18 guys and 6 women went out to see what they could lay down over the 100 meter course. The strongest gust registered on the race committee boat was 50 knots plus as the sailors showed some impressive board handling skills.The rules are simple. Sailors had to use RS:X Class legal equipment to make 2 runs.

The fastest run scoops the prize money.

Men <1000. Women <1000Peak speed for the guys was 31.86 knots and the girls was 25.92 knots

And the winners are

RS:X Men Speed Session

1. NED8 Dorian van Rijsselberge – 31.86 knots
2. RUS4 Dmitrii Polishchuk – 29.97 knots
3. NOR7 Sebastian Wang-Hansen – 29.70 knots

RS:X Women Speed Session
1. POL1279 Hanna Zembrzuska - 25.92 knots
2. POL09 Agnieszka Bilska – 25.38 knots
3. POL8 Zofia Klepacka – 24.30 knots

Actually interesting a member called Upthere posted this back in 2012 on Seabreeze.

if you think its boring look what we got up to when it was unsafe to race at the worlds in Cadiz Spain this year, a select few nutters still went on a make shift speed course in over fifty knots at times, we raced most days over 25 knots and one day of racing we sailed in 35 to 40 Knots. This may not seem that crazy but we are no Antoines or Bjorns weighing over 115kg we are all around 75kg and we sail 9.5 m2 from 3 knots to now 40 knots. I have done all types of windsurfing speed, slalom and waves and i have never experienced thrills like i have on the RSX its truly is crazy