im having trouble foiling..here is the set up
starboard free foil 150 {2021} 75cm alu mast with a flange at the board end 95cm fuselage 800 front wing 330 rear wing gtr foil set ?? foot straps all the way back on the board mast track at the back as well..
under 12kts of board speed I can put both feet in the back strap n she still wont fly looks like the board is doing a manual across the water
first of all does the flange on the mast move it has 2 screws though it???
what tool should I be using to set the mast angle ive tried to use a protractor and spirit level but not close enough
id like to start with the mast angle as the upgraded parts ie a plus fluselage and bigger front wings are any expensive way to work out whats going on
thanks mick

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mmm13b said..
im having trouble foiling..here is the set up
starboard free foil 150 {2021} 75cm alu mast with a flange at the board end 95cm fuselage 800 front wing 330 rear wing gtr foil set ?? foot straps all the way back on the board mast track at the back as well..
under 12kts of board speed I can put both feet in the back strap n she still wont fly looks like the board is doing a manual across the water
first of all does the flange on the mast move it has 2 screws though it???
what tool should I be using to set the mast angle ive tried to use a protractor and spirit level but not close enough
id like to start with the mast angle as the upgraded parts ie a plus fluselage and bigger front wings are any expensive way to work out whats going on
thanks mick

Not sure what you mean by mast angle.

Are you an experienced foiler or is this your first set of gear?

If you are a beginner I would start with these steps
Remove back straps
You want to be powered, as you get better you will decrease your sail size as you learn to pump the sail/foil
If the board is picking up speed Psuedoplaning, but not rising then move the sail universal back, if the board lifts too easily move universla forward.
IF the board is getting on the foil but you are breaching move your back foot forward to control leverage over the foil.

By manual do you mean it is sailing along with a suck tail and the nose in the air? This would be quite unusual..

Mick,
The combination of 800 front, standard 95 fuse and 330 rear, is a pretty high lift set up. I find it produces too much lift for me (78kg). I am adjusting my stab with home made shims to keep the thing down.
If you are at the club tomorrow, I could have a go on your gear and give you some feedback if you like?

hey the door yes 1 back strap is off and I stand on the other one have a piece of rope around the foil mast to back strap already 3 on the bottom of the lake don't want mine to be 4
im all the way back in the mast track already when she does fly its all good
manual -wheelie-mono yes board is sucked in the tail and high in the front

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mmm13b said..
hey the door yes 1 back strap is off and I stand on the other one have a piece of rope around the foil mast to back strap already 3 on the bottom of the lake don't want mine to be 4
im all the way back in the mast track already when she does fly its all good
manual -wheelie-mono yes board is sucked in the tail and high in the front

And if you shift your weight forward does the board level out and stop doing the wheelie thing?

You say sometimes it flies fine, what is different at those times?

It sounds to me like you are not going fast enough. The GTR is a fast foil, you probably need to be doing 15 kts or so for it to feel comfortable. I can slow it down to around 12 before it stalls but then I am in the "Wheelie" position.

Where are you putting your mastfoot? Once I placed it way to much to the back and I had the same wheelie effect. The board had some speed, the tail sunk down, nose tipping to the air but wouldn't lift. I went back on shore and placed it in the middle. Then the board would fly but was unstable, so I placed it even more to the front and found the sweetspot.

You need some pressure to keep the nose of the board down, both when taking off and when flying. It's all a balance game so make sure your rig sits in the right spot. Hope this helps!

Mast angle should not be an issue. You simply install the "foil box" head into the "foil box" and FULLY seat it with tight screws. The SB instructions for your board talk about this. When fully seated, the angle is fixed. You want ZERO looseness in the finbox. Zippo, zero.

Take off ALL your footstraps for now and figure out where your feet are located for balanced flight. Foiling strapless is easy anyway.

Start with your sail mast base at 107 cm in front of the front fin screw. You can later tweak from there.

And, as was mentioned above, you do need board speed to fly. Size your sail accordingly. Get your board planing first with your weight forward to keep from flying. Then quietly shift weight to your back foot and ease it up into low flight. If you are planing at over about 12 kts, you have enough speed to fly. At first fly really low and tick the wave tops to help stabilize the board. I call this "training wheel mode." The board's pitch angle should be no more than a few degrees from dead level. Don't worry, you will overdo it many times and crash. This is part of the fun. However, you will figure it out. We all did.

Later, when you overcome the terror of being in the air, you can fly higher.

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tbwonder said..
It sounds to me like you are not going fast enough. The GTR is a fast foil, you probably need to be doing 15 kts or so for it to feel comfortable. I can slow it down to around 12 before it stalls but then I am in the "Wheelie" position.

yes I think that's the biggest problem is the speed needed to foil ohh and instead of a mast rack of 1.5 -2 deg mine was at like 25 deg I think the flange /collar is wrong does it move? 107cm ive been looking for that number

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mmm13b said..

tbwonder said..
It sounds to me like you are not going fast enough. The GTR is a fast foil, you probably need to be doing 15 kts or so for it to feel comfortable. I can slow it down to around 12 before it stalls but then I am in the "Wheelie" position.

yes I think that's the biggest problem is the speed needed to foil ohh and instead of a mast rack of 1.5 -2 deg mine was at like 25 deg I think the flange /collar is wrong does it move? 107cm ive been looking for that number

Seems strange that it would be that much off. Please put foil on board and send us a photo

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mmm13b said..

tbwonder said..
It sounds to me like you are not going fast enough. The GTR is a fast foil, you probably need to be doing 15 kts or so for it to feel comfortable. I can slow it down to around 12 before it stalls but then I am in the "Wheelie" position.

yes I think that's the biggest problem is the speed needed to foil ohh and instead of a mast rack of 1.5 -2 deg mine was at like 25 deg I think the flange /collar is wrong does it move? 107cm ive been looking for that number

That angle difference would entirely explain why it won't fly. but thats a really extreme angle for it to be sitting on. Somethings missing, or completely out of whack.

check all the bolts that hold the assembly together (and the holes they pass through/into)

Is the flange seating on the board completely when the foil is bolted in?

If the foil is assembled correctly, and the flange is completely flush with the bottom of the board, the angle of the mast to the board surface should be very close to 90 degrees for your SB foil. Then, the angle of the fuselage to the mast should also be 90 degrees.

If all of that is correct there is no way the board would ride at 25 degrees to the water surface. Something is wrong here.

Yes, please assemble it all and post a photo.

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Subsonic said..
Is the flange seating on the board completely when the foil is bolted in?

morning yes the flange goes flush with the board. Andy had a good look at it yesterday his maths says it not too bad angle wise..But he did work out that the flange was stopping the foil going all the way into the box it stops close to 1cm short oh dear this flange thing wish it would undo and move.
.the SB mast is pointing backwards say 80 deg we put a slingshot mast with a flange in it and nearly 90 deg to the board ???

A 1 or 2 degree difference between board and fuse angle is fine, much more than that will give you grief when you're trying to get airborne. Do you have an iphone or samsung? A lot of the time they have a level app on them (in measure app on iphone) that'll show you some numbers. Its not deadly accurate, but much better than eyeing it in. If you do, bolt the foil in, flip the board upside down, open the app up then put it on the board just in front of the foil, see what it reads. then put it onto the square section of the fuselage and see what the difference is between them.

Have you tried unbolting the flange? Im pretty sure starboard tuttle heads can be unbolted and taken off the foil mast completely. If the flange is seating on the board surface completely then the mast angle off the board should be very near 90 degrees (like the slingshot foil)

as others have said, a picture speaks a thousand words...

Did I read that right? The flange stops 1 cm above the board? That is bad news. It means the fitting is topping out on the inside, and it not seated against the front and rear tapered rounds. This is a recipe for disaster. Everything will too easily move, and you will break screws and probably also the finbox.

You have to figure out a way to fully seat the front and back tapered rounds in the finbox. Either get a board with a deeper finbox, or get a foil with a shallower tuttle fitting. The overall best solution is to match board brand with foil brand, since they designed them to work together. When you mix brands, all bets are off.

Also, I think you said the mast is angled at 80 degrees. That will explain why the foil does not fly. It is pointing about 10 degrees down. You would have to use massive back foot pressure to overcome that, and then, if you did get it to fly at all, it would fly excessively nose-high.

Here's the thing. Most foil tuttle fittings have a slope on top, but many of the new boards have a level top inside the too-shallow finbox. If your foil is topping out inside the box, it will angle the mast rearward. Again, disaster.

The flange on the foil's tuttle fitting is your guide. Do whatever it takes to get the flange completely flush with the board, touching it from front to back. And tight. This will mean it is seated and angled properly.

please post some pictures

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segler said..
Did I read that right? The flange stops 1 cm above the board? That is bad news. It means the fitting is topping out on the inside, and it not seated against the front and rear tapered rounds. This is a recipe for disaster. Everything will too easily move, and you will break screws and probably also the finbox.

You have to figure out a way to fully seat the front and back tapered rounds in the finbox. Either get a board with a deeper finbox, or get a foil with a shallower tuttle fitting. The overall best solution is to match board brand with foil brand, since they designed them to work together. When you mix brands, all bets are off.

Also, I think you said the mast is angled at 80 degrees. That will explain why the foil does not fly. It is pointing about 10 degrees down. You would have to use massive back foot pressure to overcome that, and then, if you did get it to fly at all, it would fly excessively nose-high.

Here's the thing. Most foil tuttle fittings have a slope on top, but many of the new boards have a level top inside the too-shallow finbox. If your foil is topping out inside the box, it will angle the mast rearward. Again, disaster.

The flange on the foil's tuttle fitting is your guide. Do whatever it takes to get the flange completely flush with the board, touching it from front to back. And tight. This will mean it is seated and angled properly.

I read it slightly different to that. I read the flange is hitting the board completely, but theres still room in the box (i.e; the flange is stopping the foil going into the box completely). Which is normal when the foil box top is square and the tuttle head is not.

But maybe your interpretation is closer to the truth, if the "flange" is taken to mean the whole tuttle head. It does sit as a clearer explanation for whats going on, putting aside that the tuttle head angle hitting the top of the box would mean the flange wasn't flush with the bottom of the board...

sorry guys had to do that work thing for a day or so
1st pic is of board pretty level front to back
2nd pic is of the flange flush with the bottom
3rd just how far mast is off from 90deg

andy did put his phone on the board n fuselage and angle was pretty close to right but stand back and it looks wrong as on spirit level..
as for the combination a starboard free foil board and a starboard gtr foil should be ok yeah??
the

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Subsonic said..

segler said..
Did I read that right? The flange stops 1 cm above the board? That is bad news. It means the fitting is topping out on the inside, and it not seated against the front and rear tapered rounds. This is a recipe for disaster. Everything will too easily move, and you will break screws and probably also the finbox.

You have to figure out a way to fully seat the front and back tapered rounds in the finbox. Either get a board with a deeper finbox, or get a foil with a shallower tuttle fitting. The overall best solution is to match board brand with foil brand, since they designed them to work together. When you mix brands, all bets are off.

Also, I think you said the mast is angled at 80 degrees. That will explain why the foil does not fly. It is pointing about 10 degrees down. You would have to use massive back foot pressure to overcome that, and then, if you did get it to fly at all, it would fly excessively nose-high.

Here's the thing. Most foil tuttle fittings have a slope on top, but many of the new boards have a level top inside the too-shallow finbox. If your foil is topping out inside the box, it will angle the mast rearward. Again, disaster.

The flange on the foil's tuttle fitting is your guide. Do whatever it takes to get the flange completely flush with the board, touching it from front to back. And tight. This will mean it is seated and angled properly.

I read it slightly different to that. I read the flange is hitting the board completely, but theres still room in the box (i.e; the flange is stopping the foil going into the box completely). Which is normal when the foil box top is square and the tuttle head is not.

But maybe your interpretation is closer to the truth, if the "flange" is taken to mean the whole tuttle head. It does sit as a clearer explanation for whats going on, putting aside that the tuttle head angle hitting the top of the box would mean the flange wasn't flush with the bottom of the board...

and yes there is room between the top of the mast and the top of the tuttle box in the board yes the mast top is tapered
could it be as simple as the foil is old design n the board is new..a new foil set up has been mentioned and a plus fluselage
Tibor is lending me his supercruiser hope that makes a difference
thank you ever one for your help

I looked at this foil set up at the weekend. The mast fits the board correctly. The flange fits snuggly against the board. The tuttle head does not bottom out in the deep tuttle box. Because the flange stops the mast going any further in it is impossible to tell if both tapers of the tuttle box are fully engaged. However the mast feels firm and there is no noticeable movement in any direction. The angle between mast and board is with 0.5 degrees of the same mast in my board.
Unfortunately there was not enough wind for me to have a ride.
The GTR foil with its relatively small 800 front wing is not the easiest thing to learn on.

Good. The photo shows the flange pressed against the bottom of the board, and you said that there is room inside the finbox. OK, good.

There is nothing else you can do about that part of the assembly.

Now the question remains. Does the mast (strut) extend at, or nearly at, 90 degrees out from the board? Try to get a carpenters square to see this.

If it is 90 degrees, now look to see whether the fuselage is 90 degrees to the mast (strut).

If all these things are 90 degrees, your foil assembly geometry is correct, and the board should remain close to level in flight. Maybe a few degrees off, but certainly not 10 degrees or 25 degrees.

Can you post a photo that shows the whole assembly of foil and bottom of board so we can see all this and eyeball whether everything is 90 degrees? Thanks.

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tbwonder said..
I looked at this foil set up at the weekend. The mast fits the board correctly. The flange fits snuggly against the board. The tuttle head does not bottom out in the deep tuttle box. Because the flange stops the mast going any further in it is impossible to tell if both tapers of the tuttle box are fully engaged. However the mast feels firm and there is no noticeable movement in any direction. The angle between mast and board is with 0.5 degrees of the same mast in my board.
Unfortunately there was not enough wind for me to have a ride.
The GTR foil with its relatively small 800 front wing is not the easiest thing to learn on.

The GTR at my 72 kg was easy to ride (95cm fuse). Even the original Alu GT at 75 is pretty easy. The 800 wings take just a bit more speed to get up but generate a surprising amount of lift even for someone 85ish kg. It's not the easiest, to be sure, but the 95cm version has a fair amount of longitudinal stability.

I'd love to see the foil measured with a phone that had a level app instead of trying to eyeball a bubble level that may or may not be calibrated correctly.

The back of the flange looks like it's a couple of mm off the board - not sure if that's because of rocker or the foil isn't seated evenly.

To measure the angle of the IQFoil (per instructions Gonzalo Costa Hoevel-who works with starboard-gave me via email), you want to put the level right behind of the front wing (see red mark on picture).
I downloaded an app called bubble level. I used a good quality 4 feet long level to check how accurate the app was, and it was perfect.
the good thing about the apps, is that you can zero in the app so you don't need to level the board bottom totally horizontal first.
so first place the phone on the back of the board (right in front of the mast) and zero it; the put the phone right behind of the front wing and voila, you have the angle.
the fuselage has to be tween 1 and 2.5 degrees in relation to the bottom of the board (ideal between 1.5 and 2, also per email). This angle also works with the race setup (basically the same as the iqfoil) and it should work with yours.

Those levels and bubble levels all depend on the level of the board initially.

For this discussion, what I want to know is the ANGLES. 1. Angle between mast/strut and board bottom. 2. Angle between mast/strut and fuselage.

Get a carpenters square (or steel square) and simply hold it up to those two places to see whether they are 90 degrees. If they are, then the board will ride nearly level in flight.

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segler said..
Those levels and bubble levels all depend on the level of the board initially.

For this discussion, what I want to know is the ANGLES. 1. Angle between mast/strut and board bottom. 2. Angle between mast/strut and fuselage.

Get a carpenters square (or steel square) and simply hold it up to those two places to see whether they are 90 degrees. If they are, then the board will ride nearly level in flight.

No, the phone apps don't need the board to be horizontal, that is why they are so handy. You can zero the app at whatever angle the phone/bottom of the board is so when you place the phone on the fuselage you have the angle you are looking for. The starboard mast is not supposed to be at 90 degrees. In his case, since he has the mast with a flange, as long as all the flange is touching the board, the mast angle should be fine.

You wrote "as long as all the flange is touching the board, the mast angle should be fine."

If, that is, the bolted connection between the top flanged fitting and the top of the mast/strut is correct. The first and third photos above show the fitting and connection, but not much of the mast/strut. The figure 80 deg was mentioned. Every SB foil I have ever seen has a 90 deg (or nearly 90 deg) angle coming off the board, and a 90 deg angle between mast/strut and fuselage. The picture above labeled ADJUST definitely looks like 90 deg by eye. It is possible that SB mislocated the holes to cause a non-90 deg sweep in the assembly.

Sailworks once measured angles on a big bunch of foils. The AFS-2 has a VERY swept-forward mast/strut by design, but every other foil (brands and models) had very close to 90 deg.

Get a steel square, hold it up there at those two spots, and post pictures.