Hello everyone.
I recently built myself a new windfoil board intentionally much more compact (190 X 71 x 130 ish liters) vs my previous one (210 cm x 76 x 130 ish liters), rode it once and discovered without surprise they behave very much differently.
I know I have to adapt myself to the new equipment, but I would like to leverage the experience many of you may have with respect to this. I have seen that some have mooved progressively to very compact boards, up to 155 cm in lenght, and I would appreciate if you could give some advice to shorten the adaptation period.

attached some picture of the two boards in comparison.
The first try revealed that:
-the board is easily uphaulable, and this was one of my concern. The board tends to come to the wind but nothing to really worry about, I managed easily to bare away and move downwind even in rough seas.
-the board is quite sensitive to longitudinal weight shift, and the nose tend to sink, while the generous volume on the stern make it easy to put both feet into the straps from still, eveng though when doing so the board tend to come to the wind if not compensating with exposing the sail to the wind.
-slogging seems to be more challenging vs a 'windsurfish' kind of board, for sure an adaptation is needed in this area, volume is not an issue there is plenty, comfort and fatigue is an issue instead so far.
-getting airborn seems to be more difficult if you are passive on the board. It should be easier to pump on the foil provided using good technique given the possibility to get early into both straps, but I was not able to do so so far given the very challenging conditions I rode the board in this first try (very gusty 0-25 knts and massive waveish sea state).

I am 172 cm tall, 74 kg in weight and use sails from 6.7 to 4.2 so far first try was made with 5.7 (quite on the big side that day), use fanatic flow 1000 foil and 800 aero free front wings.

I would appreciate any help from the short boards experts over there..thank you so much in advance!

cheers

Edoardo

Definitely not an expert but I ride the foilx145, which is similar at 193cm long x 71cm wide. It took some getting used to, and used the infinity 76 then moved to phantasm 926.

I moved my foil very forward, and have used straps in both the inboard and outboard positions. Like you state, all the tail volume makes it easy to slog in the straps (when they are inboard, not as easy when outboard).

It does not plane passively unless quite powered up. Usually on a few pumps in decent power. It took me a while to find the "groove" of rhythm to get it. Once in air though, it feels way better than my longer Blast that I was using. Getting in both straps and pumping is quickest way but may not be easy unless in flatter water.

I'm 90kg and don't have a problem tacking it now after getting used to it, even did some slogging helitacks just to see but it really does take getting used to. I don't fear uphauling in swell as it has plenty of volume for me.

If underpowered and waiting for a gust I do adopt a "warrior stance" similar as described for shortboards: www.severnesails.com/dyno-board-setup-with-simon-bornhoft-part-16-how-to-prepare-for-waves/

Also another note about straps: Looks like yours are fairly outboard. I found in that case that I can get my rear foot between the rear straps to pump or fly more reachy/downwind.

I think reef warrior brand with windsurf wave foiling (WWF) concept got it right 4-5 years ago with short boards, bigger foils, small sails and no foot straps. My latest from custom Tillo photo on diff thread 175x80 114 l, stands a lot closer to mast foot, with no foot straps to worry about and pad covering whole board, it's easy to find, and fine tune your preferred stand

thank you aeroegnr for your feedback, I resonate with what you mention , I got similar impressions, I just need to ride more and elaborate.
miamiwindsurfe thanks for your inputs, though I do not have so frequently good waves in my neighborod, so my windfoil style is more freeride oriented, some speed, good carves jibing, and straps are part of it. Also on the foil size I used a SS infinity 76 at the beginning then moved to a faster foil with more glide, using almost 2 sqm sails les than my windsurfing buddies generally. straps very close to the mast would mean to have high manouverability at the expence of stability so of speed, I feel I am sort of middle ground kind of foiling. In making the board I built in some space for experimenting with different set ups, I can move the foil 5 cm since mounted on tracks and can move footstraps almost 12 cm and the mast base 20 cm range, so will see what will come, but too many changes will put me in crysis so I started from where I was on my old board. I do have inboard footstraps position and a center strap on the back, not tested yet though.

Cheers

Edoardo

Even when I was race windsurf foiling, I got rid off back foot strap, it was in the way and not doing much. Front foot strap usage is questionable at best for freeride wind foil in my opinion, i don't even use harness or harness lines anymore, if i wanted to race upwind for couple of miles, or I decide to learn wind foil front loops at the age of 62, i would start using foot straps/harness again... Low drag reducing pressure on your arms and smooth ride made those things optional, look at all the wingers.

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miamiwindsurfe said..
Even when I was race windsurf foiling, I got rid off back foot strap, it was in the way and not doing much. Front foot strap usage is questionable at best for freeride wind foil in my opinion, i don't even use harness or harness lines anymore, if i wanted to race upwind for couple of miles, or I decide to learn wind foil front loops at the age of 62, i would start using foot straps/harness again... Low drag reducing pressure on your arms and smooth ride made those things optional, look at all the wingers.

I had anorher session Yesterday, very light Wind 8-13 knt, i was on 5,7 Sail and 1000 front Wing. For pumping the board in the air i feel i Need the front straps to push- pull the board, the Need of the back strap Is questionable. To be onest i Like the feeling of being connected to the board expecially when charging on Sail size, though i Will give It a try soon. Noticed the short board Is much more nervous vs the longest One i had even if the geometry of straps, foil and uj positions are the same...less inertia Is the only possibile cause. Moreover i had touch downs resulting in catapults that i would have avoided with the longer board...probably Need to adjust my technique. Slogging was not a problem once i got my position dialed, pretty satisfied of that.

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dimacced said..

miamiwindsurfe said..
Even when I was race windsurf foiling, I got rid off back foot strap, it was in the way and not doing much. Front foot strap usage is questionable at best for freeride wind foil in my opinion, i don't even use harness or harness lines anymore, if i wanted to race upwind for couple of miles, or I decide to learn wind foil front loops at the age of 62, i would start using foot straps/harness again... Low drag reducing pressure on your arms and smooth ride made those things optional, look at all the wingers.

I had anorher session Yesterday, very light Wind 8-13 knt, i was on 5,7 Sail and 1000 front Wing. For pumping the board in the air i feel i Need the front straps to push- pull the board, the Need of the back strap Is questionable. To be onest i Like the feeling of being connected to the board expecially when charging on Sail size, though i Will give It a try soon. Noticed the short board Is much more nervous vs the longest One i had even if the geometry of straps, foil and uj positions are the same...less inertia Is the only possibile cause. Moreover i had touch downs resulting in catapults that i would have avoided with the longer board...probably Need to adjust my technique. Slogging was not a problem once i got my position dialed, pretty satisfied of that.

1000 front wing, meaning 1000cm2, in this case for light winds i would say foil is too small, a 1300-1500cm2 i would choose depending on shape. My biggest sail 5.1, I'm 135lb and if there's a gust of 7-8kn, i can foil. Again, i don't use front foot straps anymore or harness. Small boards are more responsive=nervous, definitely skill level needs to be there.

Seconding larger front wing. I run mine with the ptm 926 (1250cm2). If it's really light like 8-13kt I would want a 7.0 cammed at 90kg. I'm definitely not as skilled as miamiwindsurfe but smaller wings like that do feel very nervous until you're used to them, and will be harder to fly and jibe with smaller sails. (I'm still touching down on my jibes, not fully clean on them by any means but getting there on this shortboard setup).

My experience is that sensitivity comes from a shorter sail universal to foil mast distance. Its hard to tell but looks like that mast track is very far back compared to the other board. I would separate the sail universal and foil mast as far as possible and see how it feels. As you do this you might want to do it without straps so you can figure out where your feet need to be. Then go in and put straps back on

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thedoor said..
My experience is that sensitivity comes from a shorter sail universal to foil mast distance. Its hard to tell but looks like that mast track is very far back compared to the other board. I would separate the sail universal and foil mast as far as possible and see how it feels. As you do this you might want to do it without straps so you can figure out where your feet need to be. Then go in and put straps back on

thank you thedoor to jump in the discussion; I started with geometry from where I was coming from, so distance of foil mount, from uj and footstraps are identical to the ones I had on the older board. I started the test with 5 cm sail closer to foil thyen moved 2.5 cm forward, but didn't change much I would say. Yes the UJ track is 5 cm more back on this board, but I never used the most forward position on the old one, this track gets up to 120 cm from stern of the board which I never used on the old one so I should be covered.
I am afraid that being the board more compact, you feel much more the foil than with the other, just because of the less inertia of the board with 20 cm less on the front, but is to early to say, I noticed that each time I ride it I learn a lot, progression is very steep and feet are getting by themselves where they need to be. Straps seem to be ok, very easy to put feet in even from still intuitively and pumping on the foil is very easy, board is very reactive and the high volume concentrated on the back and the full vertical long straight rails make pumping a dream, while pumping the sail the feet naturally get the foil pump as well and with a puff you are on the air. On the other side though should you be passive you never get up in the air I am afraid.
For the moment I am pleased with the results, very interesting potential I would say. The most concern I have at the moment are touchdowns; I made more of them in two tiny sessions than in 4 years with the old board. It seems that whenever I touch the water at speed I catapult with that short nose...there is something I still need to learn. Slogging was another concern, but disappeared, It is very easy to uphaul and slog in, just need to find the right place for the rear foot, the front one being in the strap.

What does your nose rocker look like? From the pic it looks kind of flat?

This is a newer version of mine but I haven't stuck a landing like that and catapulted hard on mine yet. It tends to bounce off even in swells.

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dimacced said..

thedoor said..
My experience is that sensitivity comes from a shorter sail universal to foil mast distance. Its hard to tell but looks like that mast track is very far back compared to the other board. I would separate the sail universal and foil mast as far as possible and see how it feels. As you do this you might want to do it without straps so you can figure out where your feet need to be. Then go in and put straps back on

thank you thedoor to jump in the discussion; I started with geometry from where I was coming from, so distance of foil mount, from uj and footstraps are identical to the ones I had on the older board. I started the test with 5 cm sail closer to foil thyen moved 2.5 cm forward, but didn't change much I would say. Yes the UJ track is 5 cm more back on this board, but I never used the most forward position on the old one, this track gets up to 120 cm from stern of the board which I never used on the old one so I should be covered.
I am afraid that being the board more compact, you feel much more the foil than with the other, just because of the less inertia of the board with 20 cm less on the front, but is to early to say, I noticed that each time I ride it I learn a lot, progression is very steep and feet are getting by themselves where they need to be. Straps seem to be ok, very easy to put feet in even from still intuitively and pumping on the foil is very easy, board is very reactive and the high volume concentrated on the back and the full vertical long straight rails make pumping a dream, while pumping the sail the feet naturally get the foil pump as well and with a puff you are on the air. On the other side though should you be passive you never get up in the air I am afraid.
For the moment I am pleased with the results, very interesting potential I would say. The most concern I have at the moment are touchdowns; I made more of them in two tiny sessions than in 4 years with the old board. It seems that whenever I touch the water at speed I catapult with that short nose...there is something I still need to learn. Slogging was another concern, but disappeared, It is very easy to uphaul and slog in, just need to find the right place for the rear foot, the front one being in the strap.

I would of thought less swing weight would make a difference but not an excessive difference. Either way when I first when to "smaller" more compact board I was surprized how far backwards my skills went, so far backwards that I nearly didn't stick with it. Sounds like you are getting used to it and with more time on water all will be well.

Maybe you could shim the top of your mast inside the tuttle box to make the board ride nose high for softer touch downs?

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Hydrosurf said..
Maybe you could shim the top of your mast inside the tuttle box to make the board ride nose high for softer touch downs?

Hi Hydrosurf, that is a possibility should I realyze the board is riding with the nose down, though I beleive till now the limit it's me, so I guess I need time to adapt first and then when I have a decent control I will probably be able to better understand what is going on.

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thedoor said..

dimacced said..

thedoor said..
My experience is that sensitivity comes from a shorter sail universal to foil mast distance. Its hard to tell but looks like that mast track is very far back compared to the other board. I would separate the sail universal and foil mast as far as possible and see how it feels. As you do this you might want to do it without straps so you can figure out where your feet need to be. Then go in and put straps back on

thank you thedoor to jump in the discussion; I started with geometry from where I was coming from, so distance of foil mount, from uj and footstraps are identical to the ones I had on the older board. I started the test with 5 cm sail closer to foil thyen moved 2.5 cm forward, but didn't change much I would say. Yes the UJ track is 5 cm more back on this board, but I never used the most forward position on the old one, this track gets up to 120 cm from stern of the board which I never used on the old one so I should be covered.
I am afraid that being the board more compact, you feel much more the foil than with the other, just because of the less inertia of the board with 20 cm less on the front, but is to early to say, I noticed that each time I ride it I learn a lot, progression is very steep and feet are getting by themselves where they need to be. Straps seem to be ok, very easy to put feet in even from still intuitively and pumping on the foil is very easy, board is very reactive and the high volume concentrated on the back and the full vertical long straight rails make pumping a dream, while pumping the sail the feet naturally get the foil pump as well and with a puff you are on the air. On the other side though should you be passive you never get up in the air I am afraid.
For the moment I am pleased with the results, very interesting potential I would say. The most concern I have at the moment are touchdowns; I made more of them in two tiny sessions than in 4 years with the old board. It seems that whenever I touch the water at speed I catapult with that short nose...there is something I still need to learn. Slogging was another concern, but disappeared, It is very easy to uphaul and slog in, just need to find the right place for the rear foot, the front one being in the strap.

I would of thought less swing weight would make a difference but not an excessive difference. Either way when I first when to "smaller" more compact board I was surprized how far backwards my skills went, so far backwards that I nearly didn't stick with it. Sounds like you are getting used to it and with more time on water all will be well.

Indeed, me too I though I was going to be in trouble much more. It seems this is going to be a good platform to progress on, I probably just need some more session before judging, I was impressed by the quick progress and how easily I got adapted, given the massive design difference between the two boards I rode so far.

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aeroegnr said..
What does your nose rocker look like? From the pic it looks kind of flat?

This is a newer version of mine but I haven't stuck a landing like that and catapulted hard on mine yet. It tends to bounce off even in swells.

I see the new starboard foilX, this board is designed to wing-wind foil so has some of the characteristics of the two, and likely will not be optimal for either of the two sports. The rocker line resembles a rocking chair, volume distribution has changed vs previous model, you can see that is more on the center and diminishes on the back, this again is for winging, my volume is more on the back, consequently straps and foil position on my board are far back because my design is for wind -foiling in mind only.
Yes my rocker line is pretty straight from behind the mast base to the stern, it has 12 cm rocker on nose and a 4 cm bevel at the and with sharp/full edges so it should bounche out as well...need to practice before to get to a verdict. For sure the fact that is 20 cm shorter than mine previous contributes quite a lot on having less gentle touch downs, this is unavoidable.
Starboard design is prettier though. mine is rough without any attention to aestetics :-) at all

Ahh yeah, I think yours is gonna be a sweet ride once you have it figured out. The beauty of it is you can change it how you like as you already know how. Then, you can paint it up and make it crazy colors if you want, leave as is, or whatever.

Going compact is a bit challenging at first as you have to adapt your riding style. I would say it gets closer to winG riding style, espacially considering take off : 90% foil pumping, the sail is just leverage. As soon as you get some forward momentum, you let the board pop out by making a small hop, then glide it downward so it converts its height into more forward momentum. Bounce on the water and repeat. Straps are useful for this.

I chose to go inboard straps (even switched to single aft strap since this pic was taken). Here are my two boards.


The 'large' one is a Tiny like 1.9m long for about 110l. The smaller is now my all condition board. It is 1.7m long for 100l. I weight 70kg.


IMHO, aft outboard straps doesn't go well with compact, so try removing yours and place your back foot on the center line. It really gives a good feedback of the way the foil is working underwater.

Definitely, aft UJ gives more responsiveness to the kit. Also reduce the side effect of the rig, so you can ride more 'upward', or body aligned with the foil mast (witch can be tilted).

Rake always need precise adjusting, whatever your riding style is.

Edoardo, Great to hear your enjoying the challenge of your new board
I think everything's that's been written is on point.
When it comes to short boards;
they can uphaulded and slogged (provided they have sufficient volume)
they need to be popped up onto the foil
they are more reactive
You have found all these things out, now you just need time to get familiar with it. My advice would be just sail the new board till you have it wired

I recently picked up a Tabou Magic Carpet which I have windfoiled in light wind. Despite setting the UJ / foil mast distance the same as my custom board, it's no where near as reactive. I put it down to difference in swing weight Tabou 195cms Custom 170cms

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miamiwindsurfe said..

dimacced said..

miamiwindsurfe said..
Even when I was race windsurf foiling, I got rid off back foot strap, it was in the way and not doing much. Front foot strap usage is questionable at best for freeride wind foil in my opinion, i don't even use harness or harness lines anymore, if i wanted to race upwind for couple of miles, or I decide to learn wind foil front loops at the age of 62, i would start using foot straps/harness again... Low drag reducing pressure on your arms and smooth ride made those things optional, look at all the wingers.

I had anorher session Yesterday, very light Wind 8-13 knt, i was on 5,7 Sail and 1000 front Wing. For pumping the board in the air i feel i Need the front straps to push- pull the board, the Need of the back strap Is questionable. To be onest i Like the feeling of being connected to the board expecially when charging on Sail size, though i Will give It a try soon. Noticed the short board Is much more nervous vs the longest One i had even if the geometry of straps, foil and uj positions are the same...less inertia Is the only possibile cause. Moreover i had touch downs resulting in catapults that i would have avoided with the longer board...probably Need to adjust my technique. Slogging was not a problem once i got my position dialed, pretty satisfied of that.

1000 front wing, meaning 1000cm2, in this case for light winds i would say foil is too small, a 1300-1500cm2 i would choose depending on shape. My biggest sail 5.1, I'm 135lb and if there's a gust of 7-8kn, i can foil. Again, i don't use front foot straps anymore or harness. Small boards are more responsive=nervous, definitely skill level needs to be there.

Yeah, I guess this is where we are different in the kind of foiling we do, the 1000 cm2 is my biggest wing, I use it from 10 knts to 20, then preferring the 800cm2. In 10-15 knts I normally use a 5.7 sail, that is why I use straps and harness lines, it is more similar to windsurfing, even though not so charging, if I put the 800 in the same wind range I would need the 6.7 sail and it would be definitely charging similar to windsurfing so straps and harness lines are needed to lock to the board. I understand the no straps, no harness concept of windfoiling with small sails and big wings, but where I leave there are no good waves, at least not so ofthen so going straight with such kit would be boring. I had an infinity 76 I started with, it was flying well but quite slowly that is why I changed for the fanatic 1000 which was even getting airborn quicker. I set my board for being possible to explore different possibilities, so I will eventually also explore the no straps, no harness one, just starting from where I was to avoid getting lost along the process, I need something to compare myself and the board to.

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2keen said..
Edoardo, Great to hear your enjoying the challenge of your new board
I think everything's that's been written is on point.
When it comes to short boards;
they can uphaulded and slogged (provided they have sufficient volume)
they need to be popped up onto the foil
they are more reactive
You have found all these things out, now you just need time to get familiar with it. My advice would be just sail the new board till you have it wired

I recently picked up a Tabou Magic Carpet which I have windfoiled in light wind. Despite setting the UJ / foil mast distance the same as my custom board, it's no where near as reactive. I put it down to difference in swing weight Tabou 195cms Custom 170cms

Thank you 2Keen for jumping in, so nice to have your feedback that is really resonating with my experience so far; same setting as you said with 2 different boards, totally different feeling; very stable and locked the long board, much more sensitive, free and unstable the short one, so now I need to understand what would be a setting for charging speed with the new board versus one for manoeuverability. I discovered that in ordewr to separate stability from balance is essential to have the ability to move the foil to balance and to move the UJ indipendently from that need since they have two different target: UJ to foil distance is the key for calming down board nervousness, foil mast base position is key to balance weight vs lift once straps are locked. Moving the foil just 1 cm forward is much more effective vs moving the UJ back to increase lift, this make possible to obtain both balance and stable flight, I move the UJ forward to my golden std of 115 from stern and move foil fw only 1-2 cm to balance the weight of the sail...going to test today.

cheers

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6u1d0 said..
Going compact is a bit challenging at first as you have to adapt your riding style. I would say it gets closer to winG riding style, espacially considering take off : 90% foil pumping, the sail is just leverage. As soon as you get some forward momentum, you let the board pop out by making a small hop, then glide it downward so it converts its height into more forward momentum. Bounce on the water and repeat. Straps are useful for this.

I chose to go inboard straps (even switched to single aft strap since this pic was taken). Here are my two boards.


The 'large' one is a Tiny like 1.9m long for about 110l. The smaller is now my all condition board. It is 1.7m long for 100l. I weight 70kg.


IMHO, aft outboard straps doesn't go well with compact, so try removing yours and place your back foot on the center line. It really gives a good feedback of the way the foil is working underwater.

Definitely, aft UJ gives more responsiveness to the kit. Also reduce the side effect of the rig, so you can ride more 'upward', or body aligned with the foil mast (witch can be tilted).

Rake always need precise adjusting, whatever your riding style is.

Hi 6u 1d0 thank you for your precious feedback, your description of the pumping phase is perfectly aligned with what I felt happening, the board is very reactive to that. I will explore one by one yor suggestion moving forward, I just need to keep a tidy approach to avoiud getting lost changing to many things at a time. I will let you know how it goes.

cheers

Hello gents, I had another session yesterday; initially very light wind 8-10 knt, I used 1000 fron wing with 6.7 sail the foil moved forward 2 cm, the UJ @115 cm from stern as I was use to do with my old board.
The first thing I wanted to test was the ability to handle the 6.7 from the board, and this test was positive, uphauling no problem, slogging was not only possible but even enjoiable I would say, also jibing and tacking where bot possible and jibing even better than on previus board, much smooter and if needed on the spot. Sailing upwind while slogging was very nice, position very much similar to the one I am using with my sea lion for the same purpose: sail forward, board banked upwind, butt on the aft to compensate sail pull and avoid loading front of the board, nice and sweet, relaxing I would say so that if a gust arrives you are ready to pump and go and not exhausted by the slogging as sometimes happens.
I got a few puffs and got airborn, very nice and stable, I was just not relaxed since I didn't know what to expect from the board which shown god stability but more sensitivity on the roll. Then sudedenly wind changed some gust at 15 knots I flew some miles out and then back to get 25 knts of gusts with 6.7! really too much, was getting airboarn from in the arness without any pump, I just survived, was not really able to evaluate this portion of the session, too many things going on and was on survival mode, I normally would have been on a 4.2 in that conditions.

Continuing experimenting,...so far very impressed by the board...very unexpected