I currently have a Moses 790 front wing (low aspect, 790 span, 1550 cm^2 area) and I'm using it with a 65 cm wide freeride board with a narrow tail. I think the lower limit for me with this setup is around 12-13 knots, it depends on the gusts. The volume and tail width, along with my skill level, prevent me from getting significant board speed and up onto the foil in lower winds.

I think I will be getting a proper foil board soon, probably in something 75 to 80 cm wide. I also hope to get a new foil setup, maybe a carbon mast and longer fuselage and a higher aspect front wing.

What I'm wondering is if with a wider/proper foil board if I'm likely to be able to foil with the moses 790 in 8-10 knots, or if I'm more likely to foil with something like a high aspect 900 or 100cm wide front wing on a ~100cm fuselage? I think an 800 front wing will work well in for my common 14 to 20 knots, but I'm wondering what I should plan/budget for lighter winds.

Big board with 9 meter sail and hi aspect 1200+ foil would add early foiling.
Here, with 8 racers, 7 odd windfoilers, and 10 wingers in lightwind days, earliest foiler is using 790, SS Wiz 105, 160 lbs., 24 years old, superb pumper.
About the same 8 knots, F4 900, Formula board, 8.0 sail, 22 years old, 160 lbs great pumper.
Common theme is "great pumper, lightweight, 6'2", young and energetic".

Oh, haven't seen this guy at the beach in3 months.
170 lbs., 3rd overall CalCup, 9 meter NP Glide, Starboard 177, F4 1000, 6'1" and 40 years old.
And ex windsurf shop employee.

I find this amazing (start at 17:00, seems like the auto youtube link doesn't pick up the time stamp): ?t=1020
I can't do that. Whenever I try pumping, my board just gets washed over with water and I can't get anything moving. I keep trying though!

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shmish said..
I find this amazing (start at 17:00, seems like the auto youtube link doesn't pick up the time stamp):

?t=1020
I can't do that. Whenever I try pumping, my board just gets washed over with water and I can't get anything moving. I keep trying though!

What a great video and great guy.

So, being an intermediate foiler how would lightwind performance vary between a Moses 790 wing (similar to SS i76) and a high aspect 950/1000 ish wing?

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shmish said..
So, being an intermediate foiler how would lightwind performance vary between a Moses 790 wing (similar to SS i76) and a high aspect 950/1000 ish wing?

Assuming you are wiling to rig big I think you would get slightly better light wind performance out of the race foil. but its a lot of sail area to handle and you will mostly be sailing upwind and downwind. You get an 1100 though and I reckon you could have similar foil time with a much smaller sail. You just will be going slow.

Mostly you need to decide what type of riding you want to do and then get a light wind set up to do that. could be freeride or freerace.

I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

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KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

Thanks for posting this. I'm thinking of switching to Axis. How much do you weigh? How early can you get going and with what kind of board?

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shmish said..
I currently have a Moses 790 front wing (low aspect, 790 span, 1550 cm^2 area) and I'm using it with a 65 cm wide freeride board with a narrow tail. I think the lower limit for me with this setup is around 12-13 knots, it depends on the gusts. The volume and tail width, along with my skill level, prevent me from getting significant board speed and up onto the foil in lower winds.

I think I will be getting a proper foil board soon, probably in something 75 to 80 cm wide. I also hope to get a new foil setup, maybe a carbon mast and longer fuselage and a higher aspect front wing.

What I'm wondering is if with a wider/proper foil board if I'm likely to be able to foil with the moses 790 in 8-10 knots, or if I'm more likely to foil with something like a high aspect 900 or 100cm wide front wing on a ~100cm fuselage? I think an 800 front wing will work well in for my common 14 to 20 knots, but I'm wondering what I should plan/budget for lighter winds.

A dedicated foil board will give a more balanced "front footed" feel, placing the DT box over your rear straps. If you have tracks even better. I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast, then the i76 is twice that distance. I'm only 65kgs but would often foil in 8-15kts on a 5m sail and wizard 105L. The moses stuff is still very good and you can use the slingshot phantasm wings on that fuse which gives you so many options you just need to make sure to get the front wings COL(center of lift) between your feet or a bit forward of that closer to front foot depending on the board you get.
Another option if you already like the low aspect surf wings is the 873 I have one but am yet to try it on the new setup.

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Faff said..

KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

Thanks for posting this. I'm thinking of switching to Axis. How much do you weigh? How early can you get going and with what kind of board?

The first axis wing that I bought was the HPS 930 with the 370 tail now running the 380 much faster,what I soon found was that needed to be my light wind wing I have since moved on to the HPS 830 for everything from 3.4 to 5.0. I am kind of old school when it comes to judging the wind speed don't own a wind meter just kind of look at the water texture and try to see how gusty it is.I have had the 930 going with out any whitecaps in sight but that's in smooth water when its choppy your mileage may vary.Riding the slingshot 114 wizard my weight 83kg and always in a full suit where I live on the Oregon coast USA.One final thought wings like the infinity 76 or better yet the phantasm 730 will always have a place in my foiling because they have such a huge range the high aspect wings are fun you get hooked on the glide and speed down winding on them is a blast.

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KDog said..

Faff said..

KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

Thanks for posting this. I'm thinking of switching to Axis. How much do you weigh? How early can you get going and with what kind of board?

The first axis wing that I bought was the HPS 930 with the 370 tail now running the 380 much faster,what I soon found was that needed to be my light wind wing I have since moved on to the HPS 830 for everything from 3.4 to 5.0. I am kind of old school when it comes to judging the wind speed don't own a wind meter just kind of look at the water texture and try to see how gusty it is.I have had the 930 going with out any whitecaps in sight but that's in smooth water when its choppy your mileage may vary.Riding the slingshot 114 wizard my weight 83kg and always in a full suit where I live on the Oregon coast USA.One final thought wings like the infinity 76 or better yet the phantasm 730 will always have a place in my foiling because they have such a huge range the high aspect wings are fun you get hooked on the glide and speed down winding on them is a blast.

One thing that's holding me back is that Axis doesn't seem to have a wing of around 800-900 cm2. I still want to windfoil in 20+ knots and I don't think you need wings bigger than 1000 for that. Yet Sabfoil discontinued the 720 and I think their smallest non-race windsurfing wing is 1100 cm2. Maybe these newer wings have more range?

BTW, have you considered Axis PNG wings or is HPS the default for windsurfing?

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KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

For me the limitation with high aspect wings is the extreme width inhibits tight turns and carves.
I cut down my Phantasm PTM 926cm to 830cm - lost a little early flight and glide but improved rail to rail playfulness a bunch.

I reckon Tony aced it with the Infinity 76 - proven to be an amazingly capable freeride/surf wing with a huge range - the design was years ahead of its time and still current (with a few refinements) in the Phantasm PTM 730

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azymuth said..

KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

For me the limitation with high aspect wings is the extreme width inhibits tight turns and carves.
I cut down my Phantasm PTM 926cm to 830cm - lost a little early flight and glide but improved rail to rail playfulness a bunch.

I reckon Tony aced it with the Infinity 76 - proven to be an amazingly capable freeride/surf wing with a huge range - the design was years ahead of its time and still current (with a few refinements) in the Phantasm PTM 730

Wingfoilers seem to turn tight on high aspect wings.

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Faff said..
Wingfoilers seem to turn tight on high aspect wings.

I've noticed that too - any ideas why?
Perhaps the geometry/physics is quite different.

Be super interested to hear from anyone who windfoils and wings at a good level

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azymuth said..

Faff said..
Wingfoilers seem to turn tight on high aspect wings.

I've noticed that too - any ideas why?
Perhaps the geometry/physics is quite different.

Be super interested to hear from anyone who windfoils and wings at a good level

I can't say I can wing at a good level but I found that it is quite difficult to turn the board while on swell when the wing is flagged. If I keep it power like a sail I can carve much better. Not sure if this is a skill thing, or power thing. Seems like I can put more weight into board shifts when I have the sail/wing to lean against.

You can see the difference in my carvability in this vid from about 2.45 min on. At about 3.30 I switched to unflagged position and was actually able to get the board to turn

I agree when you start to windsurf foil with high aspect wings that are close to a meter wide they don't nearly turn as well kind of a flat turn in the jibe although the smaller ones can be banked over more? As for tight turns on the wing they use a lot shorter fuse. than we do and don't have the weight of the sail attached to the board I also don't have a lot of wing experience but that's my two cents. Faff as for the axis HPS I chose those because that series is their fastest wings they do make a 700 and 680 HPS but I think you would lose some of the glide that I like so much in the 830.The axis lineup of wings is huge and can be confusing but most of those are either to big or slow for windsurf foiling

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CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

I believe one of the reasons HA foils work so well with wing foiling is because of the much shorter fuse most wing foilers use, which makes turning easier. For instance wing foilers use 50 to 70. cm. long fuses while wind foilers use 75 to 115cm. long fuses and in some cases longer.
For wing foiling racing longer fuses are now being used.

A wide foil board will make it harder to get up in light winds due to increased drag when on the water. I find the Goya Bolt 135 at 80 cm wide can be pumped up in 8+ knots by just pumping the foil (AFS W95 with F1080 cm2 wing), the F1080 is fairly high aspect, and that is with an 8.0 Aerotech Freespeed sail, my weight is 86 kg. A 9.0 sail does not help. Low aspect big wings have more lift, but also more drag, so go slower once in-flight. The down side to narrow tailed slalom boards like the Bolt is you have to step forward of the front foot strap to keep the board level (and tail out of the water) while pumping the foil in 8ish knots, until you get enough forward speed to start to plane, then you can step back and pump the foil more aggressively to break free of the water and get in the air.

Back to the original question where he says "The volume and tail width, along with my skill level, prevent me from getting significant board speed and up onto the foil in lower winds."

The solution to that is a wider board. For any foiling you have to get some board speed in order to lift into flight. A narrow tail makes it harder to get the speed. Get a dedicated foil board with something like 85 cm width, keep using the 790, and watch your foiling transform into a beautiful thing.

I use the Stingray LTD 140 with a SAB 950 wing (1350 cm2) on the 900 fuselage. Even with this I prefer to get the board planing before I lift it into flight. I shim it with -0.5 deg so that I have to lift it rather than it lifting on its own. Very easy to control pitch this way. It rides through gusts without trying to breach.

I wonder if that always applies.
At 72 kg, with a 1220 foil and 5 meter sail, I foil up WAAAY sooner with a 73 cm board with full tail rocker over a Starboard 162 or 167 Formula board.
122 board planes, then foils at 14 with pumping.
Formula, with same sail, needs another 3 knots wind to start to plane.
Yes, a 8 meter sail solves the Formula problem.
But a 6 meter sail aids the 122 a lot.
This carries over to wingfoil. Too big a board requires MORE power to get planing.
Case in point. At 72 kg, with 6 meter Naish wing, I foil up a lot sooner and much easier on 105 Beluga compared to 140 Pocket Rocket, same 1580 front wing. The 80 cm wide PocketR has tons of drag, almost no rail bevels, and little tail bevel......made for bigger dudes with bigger foils and wings.

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shmish said..

CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

Where is the point 1/3 from the leading edge of your 790 located on your deck? Did you move your straps, mastbase all the way back? Did you shim the stab?

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azymuth said..

KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

For me the limitation with high aspect wings is the extreme width inhibits tight turns and carves.
I cut down my Phantasm PTM 926cm to 830cm - lost a little early flight and glide but improved rail to rail playfulness a bunch.

I reckon Tony aced it with the Infinity 76 - proven to be an amazingly capable freeride/surf wing with a huge range - the design was years ahead of its time and still current (with a few refinements) in the Phantasm PTM 730

JJ, you chopped up your new wing
That is brave of you we need pioneers in our sport. Would love to see pics please.

The i76 was the best. Ever since selling that kit I've been trying to replicate that feel. Tony deffiently knows where to put the front wings. Before tracks this was even more important. 4.5 inches is the magic number from front wing trailing edge to mast leading edge. Then move the HA wings forward from that measurement.

Super stoked the phantasm and moses wings are compatible with each other you literally have over 15 wing options(I'm probably missing some).

moses 679, 720, 799, 790, 873, 1100, 950, 945, 940...slingshot 730, 926, 928, 684, 835, ptm 730.

Just to be clear all fits on one fuse

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shmish said..

CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

Yeah that Moses fuselage was not a good design unfortunately. Likely getting one of the newer ones would gain you more than a new wing. You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling.

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Grantmac said..

shmish said..

CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

Yeah that Moses fuselage was not a good design unfortunately. Likely getting one of the newer ones would gain you more than a new wing. You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling.

The 790 goes on the current 90 cm fuse. You must be thinking of the very first 83 cm fuse.

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CAN17 said..

azymuth said..

KDog said..
I cant comment on the Moses 790 but have lots of time on the slingshot 76. I did start using the axis HPS 930 it's about 1200 sq cm what I found was it did foil up about the same as the 76 but once on foil it was just so easy to keep it flying really has a very low stall speed.These bigger high aspect wings will fool you if you look at just sq cm,but I think span and AR play a bigger part.Depending on your brand of choice I think high aspect is the way to go for light wind free foiling if your like me and only use a 5.0 as my big sail.

For me the limitation with high aspect wings is the extreme width inhibits tight turns and carves.
I cut down my Phantasm PTM 926cm to 830cm - lost a little early flight and glide but improved rail to rail playfulness a bunch.

I reckon Tony aced it with the Infinity 76 - proven to be an amazingly capable freeride/surf wing with a huge range - the design was years ahead of its time and still current (with a few refinements) in the Phantasm PTM 730

JJ, you chopped up your new wing
That is brave of you we need pioneers in our sport. Would love to see pics please.

The i76 was the best. Ever since selling that kit I've been trying to replicate that feel. Tony deffiently knows where to put the front wings. Before tracks this was even more important. 4.5 inches is the magic number from front wing trailing edge to mast leading edge. Then move the HA wings forward from that measurement.

Super stoked the phantasm and moses wings are compatible with each other you literally have over 15 wing options(I'm probably missing some).

moses 679, 720, 799, 790, 873, 1100, 950, 945, 940...slingshot 730, 926, 928, 684, 835, ptm 730.

Just to be clear all fits on one fuse

don't forget the new moses 899

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..

shmish said..

CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

Yeah that Moses fuselage was not a good design unfortunately. Likely getting one of the newer ones would gain you more than a new wing. You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling.

Yup, with my setup I am heavily backfooted. If I take my foot out of the back strap to jibe, I'm almost guaranteed to lose flight unless I'm ultra quick getting my foot down again (using straps because I need leverage to go upwind with the narrow board). I don't think there is any upgrade path for me with this setup. A new fuselage would also require a different mast. Kind of frustrating. I want a different fuselage and wing but I don't really care about the mast. Maybe another season and loading the foil with more lift and leverage I would want a stiffer carbon mast.

The group I foil with are using Sabfoil race setups. I want a similar experience but I don't need premium race gear and associated price tag. Their go to front wing is 800 and fuselage is 115cm ish, I believe this helps with the upwind performance. Sabfoil has a nicely priced "slalom" setup with a 101cm fuselage and 800cm wing and carbon mast. I wonder what the difference would be between 101 and 115 fuselage, we're generally doing a lot of upwind and downwind reaches, not so much racing back and forth. And to the question of this post, would I also get a 1000 cm wing, or keep my 790 setup for lightwind.

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thedoor said..
Mostly you need to decide what type of riding you want to do and then get a light wind set up to do that. could be freeride or freerace.

Thats the 1st question which needs answering.
Balz Muller is amazing in light winds, so are the IQFoil racers. A very different approach to sailing, so the kit is very different.

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shmish said..

Grantmac said..

shmish said..

CAN17 said..
I found the 790 very backfooted compared to the infinity 76 foil(which I really liked) as the 790 wing is about 2.25 inch closer to the mast,

ah, so it's not just me. My foil stops flying when I take my back foot out of the rear strap, no matter how quickly I try to do it.

Yeah that Moses fuselage was not a good design unfortunately. Likely getting one of the newer ones would gain you more than a new wing. You should have almost all your weight on the front foot and mast base when foiling.

Yup, with my setup I am heavily backfooted. If I take my foot out of the back strap to jibe, I'm almost guaranteed to lose flight unless I'm ultra quick getting my foot down again (using straps because I need leverage to go upwind with the narrow board). I don't think there is any upgrade path for me with this setup. A new fuselage would also require a different mast. Kind of frustrating. I want a different fuselage and wing but I don't really care about the mast. Maybe another season and loading the foil with more lift and leverage I would want a stiffer carbon mast.

The group I foil with are using Sabfoil race setups. I want a similar experience but I don't need premium race gear and associated price tag. Their go to front wing is 800 and fuselage is 115cm ish, I believe this helps with the upwind performance. Sabfoil has a nicely priced "slalom" setup with a 101cm fuselage and 800cm wing and carbon mast. I wonder what the difference would be between 101 and 115 fuselage, we're generally doing a lot of upwind and downwind reaches, not so much racing back and forth. And to the question of this post, would I also get a 1000 cm wing, or keep my 790 setup for lightwind.

I don't think that a carbon mast is really necessary. A cheap one won't be stiffer than a good aluminium one. An expensive one will be really, really expensive and probably only worth it if you are racing.

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shmish said..


Yup, with my setup I am heavily backfooted. If I take my foot out of the back strap to jibe, I'm almost guaranteed to lose flight unless I'm ultra quick getting my foot down again (using straps because I need leverage to go upwind with the narrow board). I don't think there is any upgrade path for me with this setup. A new fuselage would also require a different mast. Kind of frustrating. I want a different fuselage and wing but I don't really care about the mast. Maybe another season and loading the foil with more lift and leverage I would want a stiffer carbon mast.

The group I foil with are using Sabfoil race setups. I want a similar experience but I don't need premium race gear and associated price tag. Their go to front wing is 800 and fuselage is 115cm ish, I believe this helps with the upwind performance. Sabfoil has a nicely priced "slalom" setup with a 101cm fuselage and 800cm wing and carbon mast. I wonder what the difference would be between 101 and 115 fuselage, we're generally doing a lot of upwind and downwind reaches, not so much racing back and forth. And to the question of this post, would I also get a 1000 cm wing, or keep my 790 setup for lightwind.

That's not right the board should not go down if your back foot comes out of the strap. On a balanced setup you should have to weight your front foot with your back foot in front of the straps going into a gybe or even almost in between the front and back straps depending on how powered up you are.

Is your DT box behind your back straps?

If your still looking at upgrading boards I would get something with tracks and if your mast is not pedestal get a adapter that allows you to use your tuttle mast on the board with tracks. That's the easiest low cost option I can think of.

The slingshot phantasm stuff looks good but is very expensive $450USD for a 90cm alu mast. The wide body masts are about $2000usd for the 103W.

A lower cost option is getting a phantasm fuse (which is about the only item they sell that's reasonably priced) then get a project cedrus mast(~1000usd) and see if they can make a adapter that works with the phantasm fuse. They are definitely capable but they might not have designed it yet. They make adapters for just about every foil on the market for $100usd. So every time you upgrade foils you can keep your mast and spend $100 for a new adapter. I have no affiliation with PC but have heard good things about there masts. Have a look at gunnar biniasch on YouTube.