I can imagine this beeing asked before, but could not find the thread.

With the aim to eventually do both,which path is better for a fin windsurfer to start foiling?

With the right kit windfoiling as you will already know how to waterstart, uphaul and gybe. Location plays a part too. Whichever you choose flat water and steady wind help a lot. Make sure that you get gear suitable to your size, height, weight.

I started with windfoiling, and later added winging. I (and others) have recommended the same path to other windsurfers in the past, even if they were dead-set that they wanted to wing.

Based on my experience and what I have seen with other learners, I would not do this anymore. If someone definitely wants to wing, I would recommend to skip the windfoiling step. Yes, there is some similarity when it comes to foil control, but there are also big differences. Foil control on the wing is a lot more natural, and easier to learn. Many of the things we may do windsurfing are counter-productive when foiling (for example sheeting out in a gust - fine on the slapper, a sure-fire recipe for a crash on windfoil). So you have to unlearn a few things you do automatically if you foil with a sail - but not with a wing.

The best argument to start windfoiling rather than winging can be cost. If you have a board and sails you can use, all you need to get is a foil, which can be a cheap second-hand one. But in the long run, you'll probably get a windfoil board and maybe foil-specific sails, so that argument falls away. It depends a bit on your local market, too. Wingfoil beginner boards and older, but usable, wings can sometimes be quite cheap, since people quickly upgrade.

In your shoes, I'd look at the conditions you typically have. If you have ocean waves, big windswell, or chop, then winging it is. Maybe 9 out of 10 foilers who start with a sail and then try the wing will end up winging in these conditions. But if you have mostly flattish water, then perhaps start foiling with a sail. Going fast windfoiling on flat water is quite a rush, even if the numbers from the GPS are much lower that what you might see windsurfing at places like Lake George.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
I started with windfoiling, and later added winging. I (and others) have recommended the same path to other windsurfers in the past, even if they were dead-set that they wanted to wing.

Based on my experience and what I have seen with other learners, I would not do this anymore. If someone definitely wants to wing, I would recommend to skip the windfoiling step. Yes, there is some similarity when it comes to foil control, but there are also big differences. Foil control on the wing is a lot more natural, and easier to learn. Many of the things we may do windsurfing are counter-productive when foiling (for example sheeting out in a gust - fine on the slapper, a sure-fire recipe for a crash on windfoil). So you have to unlearn a few things you do automatically if you foil with a sail - but not with a wing.

The best argument to start windfoiling rather than winging can be cost. If you have a board and sails you can use, all you need to get is a foil, which can be a cheap second-hand one. But in the long run, you'll probably get a windfoil board and maybe foil-specific sails, so that argument falls away. It depends a bit on your local market, too. Wingfoil beginner boards and older, but usable, wings can sometimes be quite cheap, since people quickly upgrade.

In your shoes, I'd look at the conditions you typically have. If you have ocean waves, big windswell, or chop, then winging it is. Maybe 9 out of 10 foilers who start with a sail and then try the wing will end up winging in these conditions. But if you have mostly flattish water, then perhaps start foiling with a sail. Going fast windfoiling on flat water is quite a rush, even if the numbers from the GPS are much lower that what you might see windsurfing at places like Lake George.

Agree if the goal is winging, then best just to start their instead of going through the trials and tribulations of windfoiling

Winging will offer much quicker setup and pack down compared to windfoil, and less gear to carry around with you. Plus no board smashing catapults when the mast hits the board nose.

If you already have a set of wave/freeride rigs (5.0 - 6.5m2 no-cam or 2 cams max) and want to start windfoil with minimal investment: don't make the same mistake as many beginners in the past ... don't use your current windsurf boards even if it's deep tuttle compatible and big enough, you really need to invest into a dedicated board .. much much better. Many switched to wingfoil because of a pre-2020 equipment nightmare!

If you really want to try both windfoil/wingfoil .. many brands offer now models for both worlds ... with double US box and deep tuttle. Such boards work a bit better for windfoil, but I read many positive comments that it's pretty good for wingfoil beginners as a first board: 75cm width, around 2m long, 110-130 liters). So, it would make sense to invest in a freemove/freeride foil (US box format for more adjustment) that works well for both disciplines.

Whatever discipline you start with, you need 13-16 kts to begin and learn well . don't search to fly in light wind conditions . With such a board/foil combo, you could borrow a wing to a nice rider during his break time and have a feel of the discipline with minimal investment!

Warning: Don't think you will use and prefer your windsurf equipment as soon as it reaches a steady 16 kts .. when you get addicted to foiling ... your windsurf sessions will shrink a lot!

At this point I would try to rent/borrow kit from someone else at the common spots first and go with what my buddies were doing. Personally I tried winging and windfoiling at about the same time, windfoiling first by a bit, but ended up doing more windfoiling for now. There's a small core group of windfoilers here and another group of wingers that share launch spots and we tend to get along. Some overlap.

And as Lezardo said, a dedicated board is really the move. While I learned on a hybrid board it made a big difference to use a dedicated foil board regardless of discipline. If winging I would get the basics down on someone else's or a rental before buying a smaller volume board. Because when I tried a 114l foil board I found that winging it was no issue (could've gone smaller) but windfoiling it was a struggle unless it was pumping and I could waterstart.

FWIW,
The SS Wizard 114 is built for both wind and wing foil. I don't ever intend to wing, but it's been a great foiling board. I almost always up- hual (largest sail is a 5.2). The V3 114 is also about half price from what I paid a couple years ago.

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..
Personally I tried winging and windfoiling at about the same time, windfoiling first by a bit, but ended up doing more windfoiling for now.

If I'm not mistaken aeroegnr lives at a spot where the wind is often marginal. I find windfoiling in marginal conditions a lot easier than winging. There are multiple reasons for that. My 7.0 windfoil sail feels light (compared to slalom sails) and is very easy to pump, while my 6.5 wind is difficult to pump for my limited skills because the wing tips often touch the water; when the wind drops below foiling strength, being on a 140 l windfoil board is a lot easier than on a 115 l wing board; and turning without falling is a lot easier with the windfoil gear (partly due to board size, partly due to windsurf experience). If our wind was marginal most of the time, I'm not sure I'd wing at all. But we often get days with > 20 mph wind, and I find often winging to be easier and more fun when the wind is strong.

All that is quite personal. The best local wingers can get going on smaller gear than I can (with a sail), even after adjusting for weight differences, and keep going better through lulls. But it takes quite a bit of skill and practice (and/or talent) to get to that level. Many of the intermediate wingers I see are not much better at getting going in marginal conditions than I am.

So if you mostly get marginal conditions, maybe start with windfoiling, whereas frequent stronger winds would be a reason to go winging. If your name has any relation to your weight, that might be another pointer towards windfoiling, since large sails are easier to find than large wings .

Thanks guys.
The aim is to complement windsurfing on lighter days. Ocean sailing mostly.
I like the look of both sports, so no preference.

I would need boards. My current boards are not suitable.

And being heavy - 100kg- although the "name" is more related to appetite than my roundness, as I am pretty long too , I like the look of these "double bed" foil boards. They seem easy to uphaul.
Not sure what to look , sizewise, in wings.

So there would be no synergy accross boards. What about foils? Can the same foil be used?

WsurfAustin, that may make sense for lighter guys and also flat water. At 90kg though when the wind died on me I couldn't uphaul on the 114 with the swells, and ended up having to do a bit of a swim. Didn't have the same problem with slogging a wing on it. But also maybe I just really sucked at uphauling .

Boardsurfr, yup you are spot on. Most of my foiling is on 9.0/race 7.0/freeride. So yeah it's mostly in marginal conditions.

Select to expand quote

Obelix said..


So there would be no synergy accross boards. What about foils? Can the same foil be used?

You can share foils, it may be worth considering. One thing you would want for windfoiling is a longer fuse. I know that wingers sometimes use shorter fuses so with the same wing, tail, and mast, you could eventually switch. Also it's worth picking a platform that has been staying somewhat consistent so that you can go up/down in front wing size (and also fuse length and trim).

That may be easier to do with some of the wingfoil setups, as the major windfoil brands seem to have changed mast/fuse connections quite a bit and also varying on discipline. The Phantasm setup I have could go for either but I haven't winged it personally. I did wing the previous gen slingshot setups, and learned windfoil on them, but then they changed the connections a bit. There may be something more "optimum" out there.

Phantasm has a large range now and have wing and wind applicable foils. I see far more windfoilers on phantasm here than wingers though.

I'm less familiar with the starboard wing setups, only their windfoil setups, and they have different masts/board connections and all that and it's confusing. Even their windfoil race setups currently have about 3 different sometimes incompatible wing generations (pre-evo, evo, and evo mkII) so if I want to upgrade to a newer gen front I need at least another $300 fuse and maybe a new tail if I want a mkII. A bit tedious.

I agree with many others on here to make sure you get a foil board rather than stick a foil in a fin board. Use your wave sails or free ride sails at this stage, and get a nice big freeride foil to get you up early and going in light air at the start. Later you can decide if you want to move to something higher aspect to go a bit faster or something more surf oriented. Myself and Subsonic are also in WA and are out on foils any chance we get, so if you wanna drop by when we are rigging we are happy to chat with you about gear set up etc.

Keep in mind that launching a windsurf foil can be a real pain in a shorebreak.

Select to expand quote

Maddlad said..
I agree with many others on here to make sure you get a foil board rather than stick a foil in a fin board. Use your wave sails or free ride sails at this stage, and get a nice big freeride foil to get you up early and going in light air at the start. Later you can decide if you want to move to something higher aspect to go a bit faster or something more surf oriented. Myself and Subsonic are also in WA and are out on foils any chance we get, so if you wanna drop by when we are rigging we are happy to chat with you about gear set up etc.

Thanks. Have no idea at the moment so it would help.
I can relate to starting on a friendly gear and large foils.

With what's brewing in the competition activities this season, I may finish the season on the fin, then clear the shed a bit before I get more equipment.

Select to expand quote

Obelix said..
So there would be no synergy across boards.

Not so fast! There are some dual-purpose boards that seem to work well enough for learning. One of our locals who is a bit heavier than you started on a Fanatic Stingray LTD 130 (or maybe 145, not sure). He made quick progress windfoiling first, and later winging. He still does both on this board.

I'm maybe 5 kg lighter than you are and started windfoiling on a Fanatic Stingray 140 (still available as Duotone Stingray HRS 140). I later used the same board (and a few others that came and went) to start winging. This one is an older version designed before winging took off, so it's not as great for winging. The newer Stingray LTDs are shorter, have large EVA pads, and a bunch of other changes specifically for winging. I think they are good boards to get started with windfoiling and winging. You'll end up with a smaller wing board if you get better, but you could keep the Stingray for windfoiling.

Select to expand quote

Obelix said..
Thanks guys.
The aim is to complement windsurfing on lighter days. Ocean sailing mostly.
I like the look of both sports, so no preference.

I would need boards. My current boards are not suitable.

And being heavy - 100kg- although the "name" is more related to appetite than my roundness, as I am pretty long too , I like the look of these "double bed" foil boards. They seem easy to uphaul.
Not sure what to look , sizewise, in wings.

So there would be no synergy accross boards. What about foils? Can the same foil be used?

Lighter wind and a bit more weight both point towards windfoiling, while ocean points towards winging in the long run. So a dual-purpose board like the Fanatic/Duotone Stingray LTD 145 may make sense for you.

You can definitely get started on the same foil. Most beginners start with slower, bigger, fatter foils for a good reason. For your weight, you are looking at 2000 cm2 or larger. Starting windfoiling on smaller, faster race-type foils is also possible, but those will not be suitable to learn winging, and lots of beginners are quite happy to be slow at the start.

Winging fuselages are typically shorter than windsurf fuselages, but it's ok to start winging with a (non-race type) windsurf fuse. You'll want to switch to a shorter one once you get better, but you'll probably start thinking about different (faster, more lively) foils then, too. Check if you can get a starter foil second-hand for a good price. If you buy new, check what the upgrade options for wings and fuselages are. Brands differ a lot there - some give you lots of compatible options for the same mast and fuselage, and fuselages of different length, so upgrades are reasonable. Others, like Starboard, have different mounting systems for different disciplines, and then change their fuses often, so you end up with a whole bunch of incompatible gear. Unless you love collecting stuff and money is no issue, stay away from those brands.

Select to expand quote

aeroegnr said..
WsurfAustin, that may make sense for lighter guys and also flat water. At 90kg though when the wind died on me I couldn't uphaul on the 114 with the swells, and ended up having to do a bit of a swim. Didn't have the same problem with slogging a wing on it. But also maybe I just really sucked at uphauling .

Boardsurfr, yup you are spot on. Most of my foiling is on 9.0/race 7.0/freeride. So yeah it's mostly in marginal conditions.

For sure. I'm 140lbs. It's pretty much the minimum volume for me to slog home when the wind dies.
I would love the 90L, and it would work on some days, but I don't want to chance having to swim.
If I find one cheap enough, May save it for those few days the wind never drop below 18 knots.

The good thing is you are going to get into foiling. Foiling is fun!.
As others have said get the right gear. For learning bigger is better when it comes to the foil and board.
My option is that the two disciplines are more the same than different, although they are different.

From my experience and what I have seen from others if you are a competent windsurfer the fastest way to get on a foil is windfoiling as the good windsurfers are usually flying over 100m within 30 min. Given there is enough wind, they are on a big wide board without foot straps and a big foil. While the same crew usually take close to a week to figure out how to fly a wingfoil. However most figure out wingfoiling jibes faster than windfoiling jibes as when wingfoiling you do not have to switch your feet during the transition.

After that I think it's about what is the most fun for you. And in my opinion both types of foiling are expanding into every discipline. A few years ago most wingers I know where only into surfing swells, now many of them are racing. While I know windfoilers that have moved from speed to riding swells. Resulting in wingfoilers and windfoilers often using the same foil for the same disciplines

As I continue my journey through windfoiling going now for 5-6 years, I can share some of my experience... First, if you want to windfoil, you need to decide what kind of windfoiling you want to do, race/free race or freeride/ wave, equipment is very different between those 2. Bigger boards, Tuttle box,bigger sails, long fusillage, racy front/ back wings for racing, etc. Or smaller board, sails, double track foil attachment ( I used tuttle box for years, recently gave up, just no way to balance foil correctly, specifically if you want to use wing shorter fuselage), shorter fuselage, larger wings. Pros for windfoil vs wing, if you're a decent windsurfer, shorter learning curve, flight has on the average more power to it, and if wind dies you don't have to swim to get back

My windsurfing mates split about 50/50 when choosing between wind and wing foil. The learning curve for winging group was much harder and longer. In the end, both groups love what they are doing.

Select to expand quote

miamiwindsurfe said..
First, if you want to windfoil, you need to decide what kind of windfoiling you want to do, race/free race or freeride/ wave, equipment is very different between those...

Agree generally with everything else, however, choices only need to be made at the beginning. I enjoy both the racy side of things (despite being slower than molasses) and freeriding on smaller kit. Each brings its own joy and I'm not willing to part with either. I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford both types of kit, though, and it's certainly not without a price tag.