I windfoil in ocean swells and love the downwind carving and acceleration off the swells. On one of the winging discussions someone mentioned that if you are foiling in swells winging is better. Is that true and if so why? I have full control in swells, very rarely crash, can fly through jibes off a swell. What can I do, if anything, with a wing that I cannot do windfoiling?

Tack on the foil. Many advanced wingers can do it. Possible on windfoil race gear, but may require Balz Muller-kind of skills on free ride gear.

Winging in 25+ knots is a lot easier than windfoiling. But some very good windfoilers have not problem windfoiling in very strong winds, and others rarely get very strong wind, so this may not apply to you.

Go out on smaller gear and carve harder. My wife used to windfoil on a 90 l board, which seemed small. She now wings on a 50 l board that looks like a skateboard to me.

Completely ignore the "wind motor" when playing with swell. Just put it behind you, let it fly on its own, and ignore it. Some windfoilers may argue this point.

Most of these points are what I see watching others, not what I do. My foil skills with a sail are still better than with a wing (except when it's really windy). If I would not see what can be done winging every day on the water, I might have given up on it, since it does not come easily to me. But I see much better wingers every day, and get just enough wing sessions where the magic is even better than in a great windfoil session to keep trying.

Winging on swell is more like surf foiling....you flag the wing behind and surf on the swell energy. Windfoiling on a swell is more like wave sailing where you can use the power of the sail and its a bit harder to completely get the sail to go neutral and lose all its power and purely surf. But windfoiling you can use the rig power in the carves. Just a different feel, pros and cons for each.

A drop drift anchor has been developed for winging if you're into that type of thing. Get on a wave, let go of the wing, the anchor holds the wing so it doesn't fly off downwind. Your left to ride the swell unhindered, then paddle back out to collect the wing, rinse and repeat.
winging is about swell and waves, traveling directly downwind unhindered by a sail in front of you, the wing is just trailing behind.

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mr love said..
Winging on swell is more like surf foiling....you flag the wing behind and surf on the swell energy. Windfoiling on a swell is more like wave sailing where you can use the power of the sail and its a bit harder to completely get the sail to go neutral and lose all its power and purely surf. But windfoiling you can use the rig power in the carves. Just a different feel, pros and cons for each.

100% agree. I usually sail with foil slalom, and only when is impossible to sail with foil slalom (too much wave , to much wind or unstable wind), I sail with freefoil. For me the high wind is not a problem. I enjoy a lot the power of the sail in the swell in wave riding, the turns feels more agressive. With wing you have more freedom of movement, is more like surfing. Wing and freefoil are different feelings but both are good options in swell.

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mr love said..
Winging on swell is more like surf foiling....you flag the wing behind and surf on the swell energy. Windfoiling on a swell is more like wave sailing where you can use the power of the sail and its a bit harder to completely get the sail to go neutral and lose all its power and purely surf. But windfoiling you can use the rig power in the carves. Just a different feel, pros and cons for each.

Agree completely Martin. Having originally come from a wave sailing background, having the power of the sail in my hand while wave wind foiling feels completely natural.

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John340 said..

mr love said..
Winging on swell is more like surf foiling....you flag the wing behind and surf on the swell energy. Windfoiling on a swell is more like wave sailing where you can use the power of the sail and its a bit harder to completely get the sail to go neutral and lose all its power and purely surf. But windfoiling you can use the rig power in the carves. Just a different feel, pros and cons for each.

Agree completely Martin. Having originally come from a wave sailing background, having the power of the sail in my hand while wave wind foiling feels completely natural.

As above, have had a few sessions recently where wingers were prone foiling before the wind came in.
When it did come in their wave rides were much the same but with the wing they didn't need to pump their way back out. Personally I will stay with wave windfoiling as I intend to fin when conditions are not suitable for foil, which seems rare

It is naturally easier to de- power the wing vs. sail, ideally you want to power, de-power on demand to give yourself the feel of free fly on the waves..
In my opinion, only reef warrior as a brand explored and got most answers on equipment/style of windfoil riding the swell, waves.
Board short but relatively wide, no foot straps, foil position more forward, foil with short fuseage / same size as wingers use, very small specialized sails, limited harness use, ultra low boom position, if you got those ingredients, I feel, you got some advantages over wingfoil, like easier access to power,upwind and acceleration when you want it and no swimming if the wind dies

Wings have a VERY thick leading edge compared to the thickness of a sail mast. Thus, a wing never completely de-powers compared to a sail. The thick leading edge still pulls. Winging friends of mine talk about this.

So, when they are out surfing downwind on waves while flagging their wings, their wings are still pulling with just enough power to help maintain downwind flight. This is important for river chop/swell that is not as big as open ocean swell.

They also say that your ability to fly downwind with a flagged wing depends A LOT on your choice of foil. Speed and glide are critical. If your speed is too high you outrun the wave and cannot stay on the slope. If you speed is too low the wave passes you by and you cannot keep up.

On the Columbia they crank hard upwind for 2 or 3 miles, then turn and "surf" back downwind those 2 or 3 miles with flagged wings that they never have to sheet in. This works even for the mere 2 foot chop that you get on the river on the "light" days (15-20 mph winds).

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miamiwindsurfe said...

Board short but relatively wide, no foot straps, foil position more forward, foil with short fuseage / same size as wingers use, very small specialized sails, limited harness use, ultra low boom position

The short fuse will result in lower stability. Do you make any other adjustments for that or do you view that as part of the package?

Also, what is your sail mast to foil distance?

TIA

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miamiwindsurfe said..
It is naturally easier to de- power the wing vs. sail, ideally you want to power, de-power on demand to give yourself the feel of free fly on the waves..
In my opinion, only reef warrior as a brand explored and got most answers on equipment/style of windfoil riding the swell, waves.
Board short but relatively wide, no foot straps, foil position more forward, foil with short fuseage / same size as wingers use, very small specialized sails, limited harness use, ultra low boom position, if you got those ingredients, I feel, you got some advantages over wingfoil, like easier access to power,upwind and acceleration when you want it and no swimming if the wind dies

Casey over at Reef Warrior definitely has the WWF thing figured out. I'm completely loving the one off board he help me design. 6'4"x31" and 144 liters. More stable than my Levitator 150, which I loved! The Reef Warrior is so much fun for me. I wish I could ride it to it's potential. Bigger foil, tiny sail, tons of fun!

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BullroarerTook said..

miamiwindsurfe said...

Board short but relatively wide, no foot straps, foil position more forward, foil with short fuseage / same size as wingers use, very small specialized sails, limited harness use, ultra low boom position

The short fuse will result in lower stability. Do you make any other adjustments for that or do you view that as part of the package?

Also, what is your sail mast to foil distance?

TIA

If foil is forward enough, best if you have tracks on the board, regular fuselage that wingers use is fine, no stability issues. I use gong, I think reef warrior is on go foils. Mast track position and foil position are very individual though. my latest custom 172x80 114l, think width is very important to give you different options for stands, most boards are too narrow in my opinion.

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mr love said..
Winging on swell is more like surf foiling....you flag the wing behind and surf on the swell energy. Windfoiling on a swell is more like wave sailing where you can use the power of the sail and its a bit harder to completely get the sail to go neutral and lose all its power and purely surf. But windfoiling you can use the rig power in the carves. Just a different feel, pros and cons for each.

I think Mr Love puts it very well.
I would add, building on others thoughts IMHO there are a few general types of Wave foiling both wingers and windfoilers enjoy. I don't think anyone is better than the other but I do think it's cool that not much of any of this was going on 5 years ago. So here is my 2 cents worth:

1) Downwind going down the swells turning both ways with the sail or wing flagged. Turning the power on or pumping from time to time to help get to the next swell. Remember even with a wing it is more in front of you and if you want to change directions you have to switch hands. But the idea is to be riding only the foil using the power of the swell. From my experience wingers are all over this but I would add those looking for the pure surfing feel are moving away from using the wing to SUP or Prone foils, some with small electric drives to help get them up on foil allow them to use smaller foils. I would also add that in light winds I have chatted with folks that prefer wind foiling over winging in these conditions because the wing kind of gets back winded and gets in the way.

2) Downwind going up and down the swell in one direction with the power on in each carve. I find most windfoilers love doing this as I believe we take advantage of being able to transfer power directly from the sail to the board. Not to say I have not seen wingers grinning while doing this.

3) Riding ground swell at 90 degrees to the wind. Wingers love to flag the wing and go for that "surfing" feel carving back and forth on the face with the wing behind them however I have seen some that also like to add more power to their carves by using the wing. On a wind foil you can also turn both ways and flag the sail or use the power of the sail to drive through the carves. IMO if you like that wave sailing feel powering though carves windfoiling is closer to the same while that pure surfing feeling is closer to wing foiling.
As you can appreciate the strength/direction of the wind and speed of the swell impacts how the apparent wind effects the rider when on the wave more than windsurfing. If the wind is lighter and the swell bigger/faster, then going down the line causes back winding problems for those bigger sails/wings. With a sail sheeting in, like on a bottom turn, helps; with a wing holding a 6m out of the way is bit of a bother. If the wind is more over the back of the wave getting backwinded coming up the swell toeside is likely easier to deal with on a wing. I believe these are some of the reasons why we see most foilers carving back and forth rather than going down the line like windsurfers or surfers.
Also when I go down in a breaking wave I like that I separate from my kit and/or can usually water start quickly.

So like Mr Love said there are all many pros and cons with wing vs sail but I think they are all sort of minor; and many have fun on both. It really comes down to what you like to do.

Let's see everybody's foil wing that they use along with the wind and water conditions and sail sizes?

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Gwarn said..
Let's see everybody's foil wing that they use along with the wind and water conditions and sail sizes?

I don't have any pictures, but my go to foil is the Axis BSC 1060 with the 440 Freeride stab and windsurfing fuse. For 10-16mph I'm on the older Naish lift 5.7. And if it's 14-20mph I'm on the 4.7 Lift. 18-24mph I use a Hot sails Maui Microfreak 3.8. Board is a custom from Reef Warrior. 6'4"x31" and 144L. Water conditions are generally ranging choppy to nice waves and swells on Lake Michigan.

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Gwarn said..
Let's see everybody's foil wing that they use along with the wind and water conditions and sail sizes?

For my 85kgs I have a 1 board, 2 foil, 1 stab, 3 sail quiver - Predator 110, Phantasm PTM926 (span 926mm, area 1260mm2), Sabfoil Onda 940 (span 940mm, area 1100mm2), Phantasm 400 Stab, Duotone Supersession 6.0 & 5.0 and Naish Force 5 4.0. My local is Moreton Bay which can generate up to 1.5m wind swell. We also travel north to Mooloolaba and south to Byron Bay to access Pacific Ocean swell.

926 & 6.0 - 9 to 14kts
926 & 5.0 - 11 to 17kts
940 & 5.0 - 12 to 20kts
940 & 4.9 - 15 to 25kts

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Gwarn said..
Let's see everybody's foil wing that they use along with the wind and water conditions and sail sizes?

Phantasm G800 using it on the Oregon coast opean ocean downwinding and wave also works anywhere the water is rough with current present like the gorge,run it with carbon 103 mast sails 3.4-5.0. Also like the Axis HPS 700 for windy flat water run it with 90cm aluminum mast and smaller sails 4.2 and down.

Custom board as I wrote earlier, I'm down to 2 sails, 3.1,4.4 goya cypher, gong 2 front wings, aspect 8 1000 cm2 and aspect 6 1550 cm2, few stabs. That set covers 7-8kn to 30+kn. Miami/Cabarete

I'm fairly proficient in both sports. WingFoil is much better in real breaking waves. More surf feel and able to ride the wave energy and get out in bigger surf. I'm currently using the same foil for both sports. 1000cm2 (80cm span). Smaller tails for winging and bigger tail for windsurf. For me I like mowing the lawn on the windfoil gear, blasting around on flat water rivers and for powered up carves. Winging is my go to in ocean and riding any waves.

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baldy123 said..
I'm fairly proficient in both sports. WingFoil is much better in real breaking waves. More surf feel and able to ride the wave energy and get out in bigger surf. I'm currently using the same foil for both sports. 1000cm2 (80cm span). Smaller tails for winging and bigger tail for windsurf. For me I like mowing the lawn on the windfoil gear, blasting around on flat water rivers and for powered up carves. Winging is my go to in ocean and riding any waves.

Nice boost on the wing gear

I'm like you and prefer to pick equipment on conditions of the day, I have had some really nice DTL on wind foil but if its cross onshore and choppier you can surf it more on wing foil.