So we have seen that WindFoiling in anything but the lightest winds is evolving and the ideal weight for iQ racing seems to be above 80kg and maybe even as high as 100kg.

Short of 'bulking up' what can lighter riders do?

Are weight vests like those used in speed sailing an option?

Select to expand quote

berowne said..

Are weight vests like those used in speed sailing an option?

no ;

50 COMPETITOR CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT Rule 50.1(a) is changed to: (a) Competitors shall not wear or carry clothing or equipment for the purpose of increasing their weight. However, a competitor may wear a drinking container that shall have a capacity of no more than 1.5 litres.

imagine hitting the nose of your board with an 8kgs piece of lead

I know a handfull of smaller guys that used to race Laser's with weight vests. The all have back injuries from it.

Interesting question, even if it does not apply to IQ foil racing due to rules. I've always wondered a bit about the "heavier is faster" rule in fin surfing, since lighter sailors can use smaller equipment to reduce resistance. With foils, that's not an option in IQ foil racing, and probably limited in open classes, since the drag from fuse and mast will be the same, regardless of weight, even if a lighter foiler could use a smaller front wing and stab. More weight with a given foil means more speed, assuming similar skills.

I doubt, though, that the ideal weight will go up towards 100 kg. In races that are held at the lower wind limits, where even the lighter guys have to pump like crazy to get going, a 100 kg guy would have a serious handicap. The final at the Engadinwind 2020 on Lake Silvaplana a few years ago, where Iachino could not get going and therefore did not medal, even though he was at the top after the regular races, is an example. No big surprise that tall and skinny RS:X sailor Kiran Badloe won that race.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
I know a handfull of smaller guys that used to race Laser's with weight vests. The all have back injuries from it.

I remember a quote from Peter Hart at a Sotaventos speed event in the early 90's when all speed sailors wore lead.

"Weight vests are needed to go very fast and scientifically proven to ruin your back"...

Ideal weight for the Mistral one design and RSX olympic classes was about 75 kg.
Tendency for IQ foil seems to be 95/100 kg.

You could argue that if this is the case the IQ foil is not very well designed as "athletes" (pun intended) need to gain weight to be competitive.?

Maybe -for 2028- limit the sail size to 8m for men and 7 for woman?
Or, weight classes like sub 80 kg/plus 80 kg.?

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..
I doubt, though, that the ideal weight will go up towards 100 kg. In races that are held at the lower wind limits, where even the lighter guys have to pump like crazy to get going, a 100 kg guy would have a serious handicap. The final at the Engadinwind 2020 on Lake Silvaplana a few years ago, where Iachino could not get going and therefore did not medal, even though he was at the top after the regular races, is an example. No big surprise that tall and skinny RS:X sailor Kiran Badloe won that race.

With respect to iQFoil, I mostly agree with this. Iachino has said that with a 9.0 sail, big guys are not competitive in light winds.

And while that day at Silvaplana the light winds favoured a (then-light) Badloe, I do know that since the sunset of RS:X, both Badloe and T. Goyard have bulked up (somewhere north of 80kg, but nowhere near 100kg, as I understand).

extract of www.windmag.com/actu-nicolas-goyard-titre-mondial-iqfoil-belle-recompense-travail-effectue-interview

"On the physical part, after Israel, I was at 90-91 kilos and I knew it would be a lot for iqfoil so I gradually lost weight to reach 87-88 at the start of the competition and finally 86 on the last day! "

More about the weight gaining : www.letelegramme.fr/voile/pierre-le-coq-en-iqfoil-il-faut-prendre-15-kg-16-08-2021-12808052.php

And here is his brother Thomas , former RSX sailor about his weight gaining from 73 to 92 kg to be competitive in IQ foil www.sudouest.fr/sport/voile/iq-foil-le-secret-de-la-planche-a-voile-volante-par-thomas-goyard-10732325.php

*The weight. Yes, you have to grow, I went from 73 to 88 kilos since Tokyo and I live 92. It's not easy, even if I starved myself to stay at 73, it was not my natural weight. So I did bulking, weight gain. To gain so quickly, it's not just muscle, there's fat too, and it's hard, I've lost my breath, I don't climb stairs anymore"

The same article explains how former olympic champion Charline Picon in RSX class (gold in Rio / silver in Tokyo) did not switch over to the IQ foil since "she would have to put on too much weight to be competitive."

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..
Maybe -for 2028- limit the sail size to 8m for men and 7 for woman?
Or, weight classes like sub 80 kg/plus 80 kg.?

Perhaps smaller sail sizes would make sense simply since sailors are getting better at foiling than when the IQ foil became a class? I can't see weight classes for an olympic class, though, since that would double the number of medals.
Are there examples of sailing classes changing specifications over time? I don't mean windsurfing, where we obviously had a bunch of different boards. I mean smaller changes within the same class, like changing the allowed sail sizes.

Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

Select to expand quote

fjdoug said..no ; 50 COMPETITOR CLOTHING AND EQUIPMENT Rule 50.1(a) is changed to: ........may wear a drinking container that shall have a capacity of no more than 1.5 litres.

Easy. Fill that 1.5L drinking container with lead. 17.25kg.

They didn't specify what the drinking container could carry

Then if that fails, a lead lump lined with plastic and with 1.5L of water in the middle and a straw. Rule makers are silly, they don't think enough.

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

There are not many good riders in the PWA (slalom) that could qualify for a 75kg limit. Most top riders (men) are around 90 kg and considered overweight. Weight isn't that important, rather fat. Unless you are a long distance runner, most athletes that need strength will be overweight (whatever that means).

PWA is an "open" competition .

IQ foil is a "one design" class just like the former olympic RSX.

So tell me then : since like RSX the IQ foil is developed from zero, why would an athlete who was competitive on RSX be expected to gain 15 kg just to reach the same competitivness in IQ foil ?

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

Your data is out of touch with reality:
www.topendsports.com/events/summer/science/athletics-100m.htm#:~:text=Weight%20changes%20over%20time,(207%20lb)%20Usain%20Bolt.

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

Your data is out of touch with reality:
www.topendsports.com/events/summer/science/athletics-100m.htm#:~:text=Weight%20changes%20over%20time,(207%20lb)%20Usain%20Bolt.

You're a funny guy : comparing IQ foil sailors to 100 m sprinters

Select to expand quote

powersloshin said..
imagine hitting the nose of your board with an 8kgs piece of lead

Couldn't be much worse than what I do already!

Select to expand quote

Mark _australia said..

Then if that fails, a lead lump lined with plastic and with 1.5L of water in the middle and a straw. Rule makers are silly, they don't think enough.

Mmmm... lead lined drinking bottles.. should be mandatory at the next olympics in rome! What could possibly go wrong.
OK Mark... you did say plastic lined but takes the fun out of it.

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

Your data is out of touch with reality:
www.topendsports.com/events/summer/science/athletics-100m.htm#:~:text=Weight%20changes%20over%20time,(207%20lb)%20Usain%20Bolt.

You're a funny guy : comparing IQ foil sailors to 100 m sprinters

Pick any sport that isn't ultra endurance with very specific muscle use (ie: cycling and marathon) you'll see both weight and performance increasing over time. Usain Bolt would look like a freak compared to the sprinters of 50 years ago and he'd crush the best of them as well. Same with swimmers, etc, etc.
RSX requiring eating disorders to be competitive is an indication of how poorly it was designed, IQfoil allowing a more overall athletic build closer to other total body sports shows that it's design was better thought out.

I hate to break it to any bean poles out there but 180cm and 75kg ISN'T what an athlete has looked like for decades now. If that's you maybe take up cycling or marathon.

Select to expand quote

Grantmac said..

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..

Bellerophon said..

Grantmac said..
Sounds like IQfoil allows people at a healthy weight to be competitive compared to RSX which required unhealthy calorie restriction.

I'm sorry but using OBEJCTIVE criteria, there's only a very small percentage of the overall population who would be more healthy weighing 90+kg than 75kg.
Also, whe're talking about ATHLETES, not the general overweight population.

Your data is out of touch with reality:
www.topendsports.com/events/summer/science/athletics-100m.htm#:~:text=Weight%20changes%20over%20time,(207%20lb)%20Usain%20Bolt.

You're a funny guy : comparing IQ foil sailors to 100 m sprinters

Pick any sport that isn't ultra endurance with very specific muscle use (ie: cycling and marathon) you'll see both weight and performance increasing over time. Usain Bolt would look like a freak compared to the sprinters of 50 years ago and he'd crush the best of them as well. Same with swimmers, etc, etc.
RSX requiring eating disorders to be competitive is an indication of how poorly it was designed, IQfoil allowing a more overall athletic build closer to other total body sports shows that it's design was better thought out.

I hate to break it to any bean poles out there but 180cm and 75kg ISN'T what an athlete has looked like for decades now. If that's you maybe take up cycling or marathon.

You (should) know that the 90+ kg of a contemporary 100m sprinter is a totally different 90+ kg of the average IQ sailor.

Ever heard of "lean body mass" ?

I'm no expert but i'm guestimating these 100 m athletes have less than 8% body fat.
Not so in IQ sailing where you'd have a hard time finding a rider with less than the double of that amount, simply because it's weight that's beneficial : ANY weight.
No need for them to grow the fast twitch muscles of a sprinter since IQ sailing IS an endurance discipline -wether you like it or not- as opposed to the fully anaerobic 10sec dash of the 100m sprinters where they have to move THEMSELVES.

Here's Thomas Goyard "brother of" admitting he has gained (mostly) fat goiing from RSX to IQ foil
www.sudouest.fr/sport/voile/iq-foil-le-secret-de-la-planche-a-voile-volante-par-thomas-goyard-10732325.php?

You're comparing apples to oranges, 2 TOTALLY different disciplines which require TOTALLY different morphology.

Easy, drop the min. wind limit to Starboard advertised "FOILIng stArts At 5 knOts" and watch them burn fat into muscles with relentless pumping

As far as I know, races don't start unless theres at least 7 knots average, but maybe I don't have the correct info? Drop that limit to 5 kt or even lower and put your money where your mouth is, IQ foil class And do a video of wind measurement from a drifting boat showing 5 knots average and someone pumping to get foiling in such conditions. Only a handful of athletes are able to do that.

I'd agree the current implementation encourages extra weight. Any (body) weight. Therefore the participants, especially women, don't resemble the typical muscular/lean athlete body type. RSX was another extreme though with riders sporting a ski jumper or road cyclist skinny physique :)

Select to expand quote

FormuIa said..
Drop that limit to 5 kt or even lower and put your money where your mouth is, IQ foil class And do a video of wind measurement from a drifting boat showing 5 knots average and someone pumping to get foiling in such conditions. Only a handful of athletes are able to do that.

I DID IT ! Took 22-23 MASSIVE PUMPS but I bounced up in 4-5 kts. No record of the boat measurement though. Just have a look at the water though.


Just don't ask me to do it again!!!!!

Select to expand quote

berowne said..

FormuIa said..
Drop that limit to 5 kt or even lower and put your money where your mouth is, IQ foil class And do a video of wind measurement from a drifting boat showing 5 knots average and someone pumping to get foiling in such conditions. Only a handful of athletes are able to do that.

I DID IT ! Took 22-23 MASSIVE PUMPS but I bounced up in 4-5 kts. No record of the boat measurement though. Just have a look at the water though.

Just don't ask me to do it again!!!!!

Very cool, did you tweak the mast base back and have a lot of shim on the foil or no?

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..
PWA is an "open" competition .

IQ foil is a "one design" class just like the former olympic RSX.

So tell me then : since like RSX the IQ foil is developed from zero, why would an athlete who was competitive on RSX be expected to gain 15 kg just to reach the same competitivness in IQ foil ?

By the same token, why would an athlete who participates professionally in windsurfing be expected to lose 15 kg to windsurf in the Olympics? It's like saying pro hockey or basketball players should have to respect a weight limit to participate in the Olympics.

As well, you keep mention having to be 90+kg and you've quoted NG saying he thinks is the proper weight for him.
"On the physical part, after Israel, I was at 90-91 kilos and I knew it would be a lot for iqfoil so I gradually lost weight to reach 87-88 at the start of the competition and finally 86 on the last day! "

As a light and small guy, I had to come to terms a long time ago that my size and weight would limit my ability to compete seriously in a lot of sports. That's just the way it is. While there are people whose talent transcends size (eg Messi), by and large, power and size tend to be a benefit in athletic competition (e.g C. Ronaldo at 85kg and he isn't overweight). It even does in cycling when the terrain literally isn't up a mountain. Races like Paris-Roubaix and the Spring Classics in no way favor the 70kg riders. Riders like Cancellara, Boonen, Sagan and van Baarle (this year's winner) were/are around 78-82kg which really isn't so far from NG's 86 and counter your suggestion that athletes over 75kg are somehow fatter than they should be.

Sure the current crop of IQfoil sailors are carrying fat, because they were RSX sailors very recently and fat is easy to gain. Big muscular sailors simply couldn't win RSX in average conditions and dropping a bunch of muscle for the Olympics make no sense.

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

Are there examples of sailing classes changing specifications over time? I don't mean windsurfing, where we obviously had a bunch of different boards. I mean smaller changes within the same class, like changing the allowed sail sizes.

Very little and at glacial pace. The IOC and WorldSailing like stability in Olympic classes, so changes are few and far between and that I can recall, primarily driven by technology. For example, in its long Olympic life, the Finn class went from wood to aluminium to carbon masts. Similarly sail and hull materials/builds have changed in other classes.

Other than than, as I recall, the 49er mainsail did get a redesign (along with a carbon mast) not too long ago, so it wouldn't be out of "precedent" for the iQFoil sails to be changed in the future (and quite possible the foils themselves as well).

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..
So tell me then : since like RSX the IQ foil is developed from zero, why would an athlete who was competitive on RSX be expected to gain 15 kg just to reach the same competitivness in IQ foil ?

I don't know to what extent sailor weight is/was a consideration in the design of the kit (wind minima and being able to put on the show on the TV's rather than wind's schedule are very important ones).

But like with most sports, sailing classes or positions in team sports, an ideal body type emerges as the sport/class develops. The Finn class favoured heavier sailors; now that that class is out of the Olympics, those same sailors are faced with a similar decision in reverse: lose weight to be competitive on the Laser or Nacra17, or give up Olympic class competition.

@ Grantmac & Paducah

You keep comparing totally different disciplines.
The fact remains that in windsurfing extra weight is a benefit : ANY weight , be it muscles or fat.
(extreme example the weight carried (up to 20 kg) at the speed strip in Namibia..)

Not so in your examples of cycling an atletics. These guys would be crazy to carry along the extra fat as it's just dead weight to them.

Also, nothing wrong with weight classes : lighter types would not have to gain unhealthy fat to stand a chance and the heavier guys can remain healt..eeuh heavy.
I mean, even in tug-o-war they have a weight limit, for obvious reasons.

I hope we can agree that the olympic title should go to the athlete with the best technique, tactics an aerobic level and not the one who benefits carrying the most (dead) weight ?

Select to expand quote

Bellerophon said..
I hope we can agree that the olympic title should go to the athlete with the best technique, tactics an aerobic level and not the one who benefits carrying the most (dead) weight ?

I think this will happen regardless, the best overall sailor will win. Already in 2024 or by 2028, the top contenders will probably be in a similar weight class. Weight is just one of the factors, apart from being fit overall, one needs good tactics, skills, technique, starts, etc., otherwise, a sumo wrestler could win :)

There are examples of Olympic sailors who moved from Laser to Finn and gained as much as 25 kg to be competitive That came with a hefty health toll though.

Though sometimes physique differences are mitigated (eg. ski jumping with the length of the skis related to weight), other sports simply require a particular physique to be competitive at the highest level. Basketball, American football, volleyball, dating on Tinder, etc. A lot of times it's a height "requirement" that's near impossible to change, compared to weight :)

It is a hangup from pre foiling days.
The Olympic class was fixed too soon and should probably of had another cycle before fixing an olympic OD for foiling, to iron out the problems
But it's fashionable and there was a lot of pressure to change away from the awful rsx. The problem now is the developmemt has slowed right down in the wider foiling community, the emphasis has switched to learning to sail what's available, rather than developing a better "thing". The Olympics is a curse as well as a benefit