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Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

duplicate with "Topic worthy of discussion" thread.

Well if you do try it slingshot wind foil boards are going for cheap

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Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

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WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

I specifically design my board to comfortably stand on it when the wind goes to zero and seas still have big swells/using my sail to counter balance my weight to some degree. For my 130 lb, the minimum is 114l*173cm*80 cm.. When that happens wingers are swimming, even experts.

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Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

One guy in particular is very good, but no amount of skill (that I've seen) is going to keep you floating in no wind on a 50L board. Not a big deal, they chill in the water waiting for the next wind line. We were both ripping around in 30 knot winds. I was a tad faster on my 700, but couldn't tell what his wing size was. Guessing in was 3.5ish, I was on a 3.7. Whatever the case, they stay close to the launch site. I go way upwind/downwind as I like to "travel", but can still get home if the wind turns off. Similar with the kiters. I've seen them self rescue a couple of times for a long swim home. BUT, the kites are incredibly efficient in the right hands. They can grab wind up high when there's very little at the surface. Also, kite strings dont weigh anything. You can run a 14 sq meter without a 35' tall mast

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WsurfAustin said..

Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

One guy in particular is very good, but no amount of skill (that I've seen) is going to keep you floating in no wind on a 50L board. Not a big deal, they chill in the water waiting for the next wind line. We were both ripping around in 30 knot winds. I was a tad faster on my 700, but couldn't tell what his wing size was. Guessing in was 3.5ish, I was on a 3.7. Whatever the case, they stay close to the launch site. I go way upwind/downwind as I like to "travel", but can still get home if the wind turns off. Similar with the kiters. I've seen them self rescue a couple of times for a long swim home. BUT, the kites are incredibly efficient in the right hands. They can grab wind up high when there's very little at the surface. Also, kite strings dont weigh anything. You can run a 14 sq meter without a 35' tall mast

Like I said, poor equipment choice unless that winger is only interested in aerial rotations. Put them on a mid length or DW board and they'll sail circles around you in any conditions.

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Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

One guy in particular is very good, but no amount of skill (that I've seen) is going to keep you floating in no wind on a 50L board. Not a big deal, they chill in the water waiting for the next wind line. We were both ripping around in 30 knot winds. I was a tad faster on my 700, but couldn't tell what his wing size was. Guessing in was 3.5ish, I was on a 3.7. Whatever the case, they stay close to the launch site. I go way upwind/downwind as I like to "travel", but can still get home if the wind turns off. Similar with the kiters. I've seen them self rescue a couple of times for a long swim home. BUT, the kites are incredibly efficient in the right hands. They can grab wind up high when there's very little at the surface. Also, kite strings dont weigh anything. You can run a 14 sq meter without a 35' tall mast

Like I said, poor equipment choice unless that winger is only interested in aerial rotations. Put them on a mid length or DW board and they'll sail circles around you in any conditions.

A larger board helps a winger slogging home, but it's still easier on a windfoil.

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Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

One guy in particular is very good, but no amount of skill (that I've seen) is going to keep you floating in no wind on a 50L board. Not a big deal, they chill in the water waiting for the next wind line. We were both ripping around in 30 knot winds. I was a tad faster on my 700, but couldn't tell what his wing size was. Guessing in was 3.5ish, I was on a 3.7. Whatever the case, they stay close to the launch site. I go way upwind/downwind as I like to "travel", but can still get home if the wind turns off. Similar with the kiters. I've seen them self rescue a couple of times for a long swim home. BUT, the kites are incredibly efficient in the right hands. They can grab wind up high when there's very little at the surface. Also, kite strings dont weigh anything. You can run a 14 sq meter without a 35' tall mast

Like I said, poor equipment choice unless that winger is only interested in aerial rotations. Put them on a mid length or DW board and they'll sail circles around you in any conditions.

Wingers also slog. Their slogging looks more painful than windfoiler slog. Maybe that is because most windfoilers use non-sinkers boards and now every winger is trying to go as small as possible.

Having slogged a bodyweight +20L windfoil board and a bodyweight +10L DW wingfoil board I'll take the latter. It's easier and faster plus a lot better at pumping through a lull.

Another us vs them thread ,being one of the few free ride windfoil people in my area I can say that wing has quite a few advantages over windfoil like more compact lighter gear and riding with the wing way easier to tack than a sail. As far as getting on foil that's mostly rider technique I live in a windy area average day I'll rig a 4.2 with 1000 sq. Cm. Foil or smaller and my SS 115 board guys on wings are on 5.5 or5.0 and the newer mid size boards mostly things seem equal as far as getting on foil top speed upwind ability is this a good comparison don't know just thought I would throw that out there.Will I stick with windfoil yea don't really feel like making another change at my age and really wing or sail as the saying goes most people are just mowing the lawn anyway

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Grantmac said..
Having slogged a bodyweight +20L windfoil board and a bodyweight +10L DW wingfoil board I'll take the latter. It's easier and faster plus a lot better at pumping through a lull.

But the beauty of windfoil is that we don't need to be on small boards even in windy conditions. Admittedly I'm on the smaller side but I use a body weight + 50l board for higher winds (it handles 30+ kts just fine). I've raced a body weight plus 120l board in 25 kts. Small boards can be fun but they absolutely aren't necessary. It's much easier for me to float out and wait for the wind than my wing friends and while I'm bobbing around mess with some freestyle moves.

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Paducah said..

Grantmac said..
Having slogged a bodyweight +20L windfoil board and a bodyweight +10L DW wingfoil board I'll take the latter. It's easier and faster plus a lot better at pumping through a lull.

But the beauty of windfoil is that we don't need to be on small boards even in windy conditions. Admittedly I'm on the smaller side but I use a body weight + 50l board for higher winds (it handles 30+ kts just fine). I've raced a body weight plus 120l board in 25 kts. Small boards can be fun but they absolutely aren't necessary. It's much easier for me to float out and wait for the wind than my wing friends and while I'm bobbing around mess with some freestyle moves.

I could not agree with you more Paducah, I ride about 45l above my weight by design even if it is gusting into the 30's. Focusing on the small gear is one of the often cited reasons for the decline of windsurfing from its peak in the beginning of the sport.

A couple of years back I picked up a beginner windsurf board (used Starboard Start for $300) with the idea of teaching anyone that was interested. I think I am up to 20 people now that have learned the basics for free. There are about four of them that got gear and sail on their own. It has been so fun and rewarding! I love riding that super tanker myself, I have learned all manner of freestyle moves on it and those skills are starting to improve my foiling.

The other way I have been sharing the stoke is to keep enough of my old gear around as I upgrade so that I can offer a complete foil and board as a loaner to a windsurfer looking to foil. I made a whole village of friends that way one winter in Florida. Right now I am dreaming up what a beginner windfoil board should look like..

Everyone of us understands that it is teaching new people and especially the kids about our sport that will keep the sport alive.... We can't leave teaching to the shops, there are not enough of them anymore. I can only think of a handful of businesses offering windsurfing lessons in the entire continental US.

It is up to us... Let's get to it...

Don't know where you're getting the idea that you need a small board to wing? Some of the best local wave riders are on bodyweight plus boards.

A lot of this sounds like judging the sport by watching people on poor gear choices or who just don't know what they are doing.

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Grantmac said..
Don't know where you're getting the idea that you need a small board to wing? Some of the best local wave riders are on bodyweight plus boards.

A lot of this sounds like judging the sport by watching people on poor gear choices or who just don't know what they are doing.

All this defensiveness and arguing from a simple statement about wingers kneeling down in waves/no wind? I sometimes go supping in waves, it's a significantly larger platform to stand and balance on than a wing foil board, but it's still a hell of a lot easier to get around kneeling down than standing up in the waves. It's easy enough to get upright when you want to start riding the waves. I wouldn't say it's a measure of skill level whether someone chooses to kneel in waves/not enough wind, it's just easier.

windfoiling is a different scenario, you need to counter balance the rig, and it counterbalances you, hence you stand up. I think the OP is probably referring to the overall scenario. it's probably quite taxing on the knees, and body overall being the only link between the wing and the board, perhaps a harness and harness line might help reduce the load on the body and help them to stick with the winging, if they're not using them already?

not a winger, but it might be easier to shlog out on your knees through small chop/swell, and then get up & going on a less floaty/partly submersed board than on a corkier one...

Not sure why all the noise around wind v wing is required. Yeah winging is the new thing but windfoil is far from dead. Still plenty of freeride options...
My largest ride is 111 ltr and can always get home when the wingers are on their knees. That said, plenty of skilled wingers flying around me in 8 knots....doesn't bother me as when the wind is up we are all smiling especially when I am on newly acquired 93ltr Foilstyler and 3.3 freek.


Those still loyal to windfoil just need to hunt a little more for gear to get the right setup for their kicks

Mr Keen - how's the Sabfoil 909 going?

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Roy said..
Mr Keen - how's the Sabfoil 909 going?

Haven't used anything else since I got it!
My 899 and 940 are now redundant, should have been on the 769 today in 20-25 knots but the 909 is so dependable.
Use it in 10-25+ with sails 5.2 to 3.3

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Mr Keen said..
Not sure why all the noise around wind v wing is required. Yeah winging is the new thing but windfoil is far from dead. Still plenty of freeride options...
My largest ride is 111 ltr and can always get home when the wingers are on their knees. That said, plenty of skilled wingers flying around me in 8 knots....doesn't bother me as when the wind is up we are all smiling especially when I am on newly acquired 93ltr Foilstyler and 3.3 freek.


Those still loyal to windfoil just need to hunt a little more for gear to get the right setup for their kicks

Nice!!. Finally got to use my 3.0 in 30+knots. So much more fun when not struggling in overpowered conditions.

Looks like our next therapy session for windsurfing's low self-esteem will be a group session

go to 7:50 for why kite foilers are moving away

The migration of participation from one sport to another has always been a feature of blue water sports as the next shinny toy became available. Eg Windsurfing to kite surfing. Windsurfing to wind-foiling. Kite surfing to wing-foiling. Wind-foiling to wing-foiling. Kite surfing to kite-foiling. Surfing to wing-foiling. Surfing to prone-foiling. SUP-downwind to foil-downwind. Wing-foiling to foil-downwind. Wing-foiling to para-foiling. Wing-foiling to foil drive.

Some participants are attracted to the shinny new toys. Others are more than happy with their current ride. All the new shinny toys make it harder for the older sports to attract new adherents.

At my local we have windsurfers, kite surfers, wind-foilers, kite-foilers, wing-foilers, para-foilers, foil-drivers and foil-downwinders all having fun. There is great camaraderie between the different users as we all share a same stoke.

I hear that North is introducing a windsurf foil fuselage in the spring of '25.

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John340 said..
All the new shinny toys make it harder for the older sports to attract new adherents.

That's true, but not because the new toys are new and shiny. Just having more options means each option will get fewer new participants. The bigger thing, though, is how cool it looks. I have windsurfed for decades, and it's hard to recall anyone ever sitting at the beach to watch windsurfers. Watching windsurfers is a bit like watching someone mow the lawn. Kiting had a big advantage there - the kites are much more visible, many of us have fond memories of flying kites, and the jumps look cool. It's pretty common to see beach goers watch kites. It's still not something I'd want to do, after hearing too many stories about accidents. It still happens - we just had a 29-year old expert kiter die nearby, in rather typical (that is, not crazy) conditions.

Winging stands out not just because of easy access, but also because it looks and feels cool (maybe not to everyone, but to many). I've had beach goers comment that they love to watch us when we go out winging. The main comment regarding windsurfing was "are you a beginner?", after someone watched one of the best light wind freestylers . Windsurfing is very deceptive there - a great session feels as good as anything else on the water, but rarely looks like it. I remember seeing top PWA wave guys going out in 30 knots and concluding "that's why I don't wave sail". When I see a good winger playing with chaotic chop and having an absolute ball, it just makes me more stubborn to learn this wing thing, even though it does not come natural to me. But every now and then, I at least get a glimpse of what kind of fun is possible.

Windfoiling shares some of the "bad" characteristics of kite foiling and windsurfing. It looks a bit cooler than windsurfing, but has entry barriers (for non-windsurfers) that are also quite high. Slogging when the wind drops is a lot easier than when winging, since the penalty of using a big board does not really exist with the sail. I'm still on a relatively large wing board (+25 l), but for windfoiling, I can add another 25 l without any penalty. That larger board also add a lot of width, length, and stability since it's not as fat, so getting home when the wind dies is just a lot easier. But somehow, winging has me much more motivated to get better than windfoiling ever did, even though my toys are neither shiny nor new anymore.

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boardsurfr said..

John340 said..
All the new shinny toys make it harder for the older sports to attract new adherents.

That's true, but not because the new toys are new and shiny. Just having more options means each option will get fewer new participants. The bigger thing, though, is how cool it looks. I have windsurfed for decades, and it's hard to recall anyone ever sitting at the beach to watch windsurfers. Watching windsurfers is a bit like watching someone mow the lawn. Kiting had a big advantage there - the kites are much more visible, many of us have fond memories of flying kites, and the jumps look cool. It's pretty common to see beach goers watch kites. It's still not something I'd want to do, after hearing too many stories about accidents. It still happens - we just had a 29-year old expert kiter die nearby, in rather typical (that is, not crazy) conditions.

Winging stands out not just because of easy access, but also because it looks and feels cool (maybe not to everyone, but to many). I've had beach goers comment that they love to watch us when we go out winging. The main comment regarding windsurfing was "are you a beginner?", after someone watched one of the best light wind freestylers . Windsurfing is very deceptive there - a great session feels as good as anything else on the water, but rarely looks like it. I remember seeing top PWA wave guys going out in 30 knots and concluding "that's why I don't wave sail". When I see a good winger playing with chaotic chop and having an absolute ball, it just makes me more stubborn to learn this wing thing, even though it does not come natural to me. But every now and then, I at least get a glimpse of what kind of fun is possible.

Windfoiling shares some of the "bad" characteristics of kite foiling and windsurfing. It looks a bit cooler than windsurfing, but has entry barriers (for non-windsurfers) that are also quite high. Slogging when the wind drops is a lot easier than when winging, since the penalty of using a big board does not really exist with the sail. I'm still on a relatively large wing board (+25 l), but for windfoiling, I can add another 25 l without any penalty. That larger board also add a lot of width, length, and stability since it's not as fat, so getting home when the wind dies is just a lot easier. But somehow, winging has me much more motivated to get better than windfoiling ever did, even though my toys are neither shiny nor new anymore.

Hate to break it to you but no-one thinks winging looks cool mate. I mean i dont mind if you wanna bring your blow up dolls out in public and hang them over your head like umbrellas, but that doesnt mean others think its cool.

Agree, winging looks not cool or fun at all (unless jumping ), especially on a wave. Wave sailing on a windsurfer with the radical bottom and top turns, including some nice spray that flies around looks epic. On a foil, the feeling is great but it looks super lame!

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ptsf1111 said..
On a foil, the feeling is great but it looks super lame!

This!! I have no interest in winging in waves/ swell but on windfoil it's the most fun you can have with your clothes on (for me)
Who gives a ratz if it doesn't look cool to most...
Amongst my peers it does as they will appreciate the nuances, as it would for the winging community.
My goals personally are to continue the foiling journey and relocate to a location that will get me back to my roots wave sailing on a fin also.
The reality is folks will choose their poison, taking the easy option unfortunately has not been good for windsurfing/ foiling so far but I am sure eventually it will go full circle....

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Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Grantmac said..

WsurfAustin said..

Lindz1510 said..

?si=__UK6XdvCStfzfaW
Has this been anyone else's experience? I've spent too much money already on wing ding gear and foil drives but wondering if windfoiling might be easier on the knees :)

I sail on a lake with huge lulls between the big gusts, which means a lot of re starts. We have a lot of wingers. They all seem to have to get on their knees either due to low board volume, or its just to hard to balance with no wind in boat driven waves. Nothing wrong with that, but my knees can't do that. My board has just enough volume(114L) to slog around comfortably without dropping the sail.

Honestly it seems like your wingers are either not very good or are only interested in freestyle.
With correctly sized and well ridden wingfoil gear there really isn't a condition where your 114 would have any advantage.

Now if you were on race foil gear perhaps but that gap is narrowing fast.

One guy in particular is very good, but no amount of skill (that I've seen) is going to keep you floating in no wind on a 50L board. Not a big deal, they chill in the water waiting for the next wind line. We were both ripping around in 30 knot winds. I was a tad faster on my 700, but couldn't tell what his wing size was. Guessing in was 3.5ish, I was on a 3.7. Whatever the case, they stay close to the launch site. I go way upwind/downwind as I like to "travel", but can still get home if the wind turns off. Similar with the kiters. I've seen them self rescue a couple of times for a long swim home. BUT, the kites are incredibly efficient in the right hands. They can grab wind up high when there's very little at the surface. Also, kite strings dont weigh anything. You can run a 14 sq meter without a 35' tall mast

Like I said, poor equipment choice unless that winger is only interested in aerial rotations. Put them on a mid length or DW board and they'll sail circles around you in any conditions.

Not IME.

For whatever reason, wings can't go downwind for crap(the fun part). I bear off and blow past them when they are dragging the wing behind them pumping the board like crazy.