I wish! Storm sailing
And to demonstrate that you do not need a windwing go to the rather incredible minute #2!!!!

so good

Ooooh, to be young again!
At least younger than 71 anyways.

Is Balz Muller just way ahead of everyone else on the foil, or are we just not seeing footage of others at his level?

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2keen said..
Is Balz Muller just way ahead of everyone else on the foil, or are we just not seeing footage of others at his level?

I think he is way ahead. His mate on slingshot gear is pretty close...

A number of factors. He is a very good freestyler and has been foiling for quite some time. He's also embraced Freeride foiling when everyone else was / is still focused on racing. The board he developed together with MB boards is uniquely designed to do this sort of foiling.

This is incredible.

Notice he has front footstraps very much inside, and only one back strap. Should backstraps in the middle be renamed from Chicken straps to Balz straps?

Or maybe only if you can do an aerial 360.

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oscardog said..
This is incredible.

Notice he has front footstraps very much inside, and only one back strap. Should backstraps in the middle be renamed from Chicken straps to Balz straps?

Or maybe only if you can do an aerial 360.

He is also using MB boards, either the freestyle 92L or the new 89L Pegasus foil board. Both very narrow (58 and 55). The development direction seems very wise: the Pegasus is narrow but with a healthy area in front of the mast. The Freestyle board is 200 long, the foil specific Pegasus 170.






I would really like to at least be good enough to use something as narrow as that!!!

????
2nd day I used a 98 liter 242x62 liter board with Naish foil. Anyone can ride those narrow boards, providing they can ride a narrow WSboard

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LeeD said..
????
2nd day I used a 98 liter 242x62 liter board with Naish foil. Anyone can ride those narrow boards, providing they can ride a narrow WSboard

Not true. That boards length seems also ill suited to the Naish foil / foiling in general.

What in the world are you talking about?
Old 242 board has lots of nose kick.
New 200 boards are pretty flat in the nose.
No big diff. Certainly not swing weight.

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LeeD said..
????
2nd day I used a 98 liter 242x62 liter board with Naish foil. Anyone can ride those narrow boards, providing they can ride a narrow WSboard

Good for you, although a 242x62 does not seem to have much to do with a 200x58 or170x55 board ...

I am sure I could "ride" a narrower board. The question is how much harder it is with respect to a a larger foil board. The interest is because if such a board was a double-purpose one, like the MB freestyle above, it would be a very interesting option in places like the Bay Area where during the season 12-25 knots wind are the norm. Balz was a very early proponent of using a standard board for foiling, and he might have a point (of course at his level a foil specific board like the Pegasus makes sense.)

But one thing at a time: I still suck at foiling! My Flikka is on the smallish side (117 Liters, 207x77, with very square outline) but boards narrower than 70 cm are still considered the domain of high-wind/expert foiling, and there is probably a reason for that!!!

Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.
He foils where it's got wind near shore.
At Berkeley, the slog in sub 4 mph breeze is around 200 yards.

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LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

All you need is being able to uphaul....in 1-5 mph breeze.
More volume is to encourage you to go out in marginal days, where lots of slogging is needed.
After now 72 or so days, give me a 160 liter foil board anytime!

Sorry LeeD but when it comes to foiling,
width equals stability!!

I have to agree with LeeD on this one. Maybe it's because I am a year older than he is.

Width equals stability when slogging or uphauling. When up on the wing, width means leverage.

My 75 cm wide foil board has enough float, but it is still tippy for my weight. However, when I am up flying, the board is perfect.

My 100.5 cm formula board (160 liters) is super easy for slogging and uphauling, but it is a little kaddywhompus when up on the wing. It works, but I have had to move the footstraps inboard to get a normal freeride stance.

If you waterstart your foiling gear, the width does not mean a heckuva lot. Within reason, of course.

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segler said..
I have to agree with LeeD on this one. Maybe it's because I am a year older than he is.

Width equals stability when slogging or uphauling. When up on the wing, width means leverage.

My 75 cm wide foil board has enough float, but it is still tippy for my weight. However, when I am up flying, the board is perfect.

My 100.5 cm formula board (160 liters) is super easy for slogging and uphauling, but it is a little kaddywhompus when up on the wing. It works, but I have had to move the footstraps inboard to get a normal freeride stance.

If you waterstart your foiling gear, the width does not mean a heckuva lot. Within reason, of course.

Hard to tell what LeeD means because he often talks in quarter long sentences, but I think he was saying the opposite, that a narrow board is not any more difficult to use than a wide one. We are talking narrow, not 75-80, Balz uses a 55-58 wide board in the videos. My intuition says that that is not the case, and, say, a sub 65 board would be harder to use. But I'd be happy to be wrong. An easy foil like the Moses 790/720 might not be any more difficult to use on a small board. We'll see soon I am sure.

Narrow board, rec foil, centered straps.
Wide board, race foil, outboard straps.
Most of us can slog a 54cm wide board.

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duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

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gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

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duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

Why are you selling(compared to Moses)?

"Width equals stability" is probably oversimplifying things
Sam Ross in his video on foil gybing talks about the back foot, move it back and across the board
He says feet wider to control lift
On a narrow board (50-60cm) you simply can't place your feet wide wide enough apart to create stability for an easy gybe.
Balz Muller proves with good technique it can be done and made look easy
As for outboard straps on Formula boards, well that's a different story

Once again, you fail to account for different foil characteristics

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gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

Why are you selling(compared to Moses)?

Given my baffling difficulties with foiling, the 790 is easier. Its reaction times are slower and it seems very hard to get in trouble with it. The Noe is more sporty, probably faster, but it might take more wind/sail to keep going. I waited for a bit to see if Taaroa was coming up with a 790-style option, but it was not happening and so last October I got the Moses . I do not need two complete foils so I can sell the Taaroa and get the 720 if I ever progress enough to need a faster wing. The Noe is a very good foil. An advanced foiler friend of mine tried it and liked it a lot.

A narrower board is less stable. I have 3 boards 69-70-72cm wide and all 180 long, and am working on a 65x130 prototype currently. I use mine with a very stable foil laterally, but also on testdays beginners seem to have no significantly more trouble with it than with a "regular" board of 77-85 wide. It is a tad less stable /more playful than a wider board ofcourse, but I think the change in length compared to a bigger foilboard results in more difficulties/instability than the change in width.

I think comparing to a formula is an unfair comparison, for formula is not in the regular size category anymore. Yes its stable, but it actually becomes very unstable if you rig below 8m2 and is a lot nastier to jibe than a pocketboard.

It is important you take sailsizing into account. I think the reason for these horrorstories about small boards being more unstable than they are, is because in the beginning everyone gets their 70 wide slalomboard out, puts a foil (most often a very unstable but cheap one like a pryde alu) in it and rigs their 7.8; thats not going to work. If you pair a small board with a small sail (for 70 wide say sub 5m for the best results), it will be alot easier to manage.

I dont understnd why people always want to put too big sails on foilboards. Too big a sail (or too small, 3.0 for a 70 wide becomes very small) leads to a lot of instability.

Tldr; a boards' width is not very highly correlated with its required skilllevel, given you use the board for its intended purpose and with the intended sails.

This Guy ^^^ He knows. High skill level, races, free ride, huge experience with a large range of foils/boards/sails/combos. Wealth of knowledge, willing to share it.

LeeD, says a lot, not much makes sense.

Truth bombs

Those who don't comprehend, just do not understand!
If you can ride a 60cm windsurfboard, you can ride that same width but a bit more volume foil board. In 8-15 mph, it's just as easy or difficult as riding a 73cm foil board.
The difficult part is when wind is 1-5, and then balance becomes probamatic.
Rec freeride foil. Not PWA race gear.

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duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

Why are you selling(compared to Moses)?

Given my baffling difficulties with foiling, the 790 is easier. Its reaction times are slower and it seems very hard to get in trouble with it. The Noe is more sporty, probably faster, but it might take more wind/sail to keep going. I waited for a bit to see if Taaroa was coming up with a 790-style option, but it was not happening and so last October I got the Moses . I do not need two complete foils so I can sell the Taaroa and get the 720 if I ever progress enough to need a faster wing. The Noe is a very good foil. An advanced foiler friend of mine tried it and liked it a lot.

Ah... I see. Was just curious as to your experience As I have some Taaroa Foils - Haven't used them yet, but there are a bunch of new wings called the UP series 1250, 1600, 1900 - look very nice. So if you don't end up selling your Noe, you will have options very soon... Moses look nice too.

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gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

Why are you selling(compared to Moses)?

Given my baffling difficulties with foiling, the 790 is easier. Its reaction times are slower and it seems very hard to get in trouble with it. The Noe is more sporty, probably faster, but it might take more wind/sail to keep going. I waited for a bit to see if Taaroa was coming up with a 790-style option, but it was not happening and so last October I got the Moses . I do not need two complete foils so I can sell the Taaroa and get the 720 if I ever progress enough to need a faster wing. The Noe is a very good foil. An advanced foiler friend of mine tried it and liked it a lot.

Ah... I see. Was just curious as to your experience As I have some Taaroa Foils - Haven't used them yet, but there are a bunch of new wings called the UP series 1250, 1600, 1900 - look very nice. So if you don't end up selling your Noe, you will have options very soon... Moses look nice too.

Yes, they are even offering a titanium fuselage now! (bit spendy ). Moses is hard to beat quality and look wise, but Taaroa has some very nice touches, like the metal inserts for the wings bolts, and it a big step up with respect to Slingshot or, say, a 2018 JP aluminum. I think the Noe is actually a good foil for a beginner.

Select to expand quote

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

gorgesailor said..

duzzi said..

LeeD said..
Volume and narrowness is only a factor in 1-8 mph winds.

hum ... I think very few can wind foil in 1-8 mph (0.8-7 knots) and anyway a narrow board will be more reactive than a large one ... maybe that is good and we are all doing the wrong thing, but you do not see many sub 70 cm wide boards marketed for beginner/intermediates ...

Is that your Taaroa foil? Did you try it?

Yes, it is my Taaroa Noe. It is good, goes pretty fast and is very controllable even at my incredible level of foiling ineptitude! I am selling it (it is on the US e-bay at a very good price) because I got a Moses 790 this year and eventually I'll be getting the 720 ...

Why are you selling(compared to Moses)?

Given my baffling difficulties with foiling, the 790 is easier. Its reaction times are slower and it seems very hard to get in trouble with it. The Noe is more sporty, probably faster, but it might take more wind/sail to keep going. I waited for a bit to see if Taaroa was coming up with a 790-style option, but it was not happening and so last October I got the Moses . I do not need two complete foils so I can sell the Taaroa and get the 720 if I ever progress enough to need a faster wing. The Noe is a very good foil. An advanced foiler friend of mine tried it and liked it a lot.

Ah... I see. Was just curious as to your experience As I have some Taaroa Foils - Haven't used them yet, but there are a bunch of new wings called the UP series 1250, 1600, 1900 - look very nice. So if you don't end up selling your Noe, you will have options very soon... Moses look nice too.

Yes, they are even offering a titanium fuselage now! (bit spendy ). Moses is hard to beat quality and look wise, but Taaroa has some very nice touches, like the metal inserts for the wings bolts, and it a big step up with respect to Slingshot or, say, a 2018 JP aluminum. I think the Noe is actually a good foil for a beginner.

Exciting times! ... more to come too. Love the stab adjustment system as well...