Hi, I'm looking to update my Slingshot Hoverglide gear and move to a new platform. Currently running a 90cm mast. I'm ocean riding and focus on swell riding when possible - windfoil and wingfoil. I'm considering the SABFoil system as have been able to demo the gear (90cm mast) and like the front wings on offer.
Are many of you swell riders running a 90cm mast or a longer one? It's a big step up in price for the 100cm+ mast and I'm not too sure it'll be good for winging. I would appreciate the extra length windfoiling on waves but wonder if a skilful rider can easily run a 90cm mast in swell.

Any thoughts/experience would be appreciated.

I ride 90cm in the ocean and big chaotic harbor chop and it's as long as I want to deal with. Every cm you add to the mast makes it harder to launch, retrieve and navigate. I have a mate that kite foils a 70cm mast in the ocean. He is cracking the lip and surfing the area that I traverse to get into deeper water! He has ride height skills that are at another level, those are skills I want to learn. Shorter is lighter, stiffer and lower take off drag.

I ride 103 in swell and 92 on flat water. Extra length means a can carve harder also gives some latitude for mistakes if your timing is off chasing down swells from behind.

Hi AB

It is a good question,,

Think there would be opinions from both sides ( foilers using longer or shorter masts ) :)

From my experience the 90cm mast, will be perfectly fine ( for both wind as wing )
Not sure the extra $ spend on a 100+ mast is justified, but I do 100% understand the thought around it , with the thoughts as giving you a bit more 'security' before the foil is breaching in waves.

I would spend the extra $ on 2 different fuselages ( longer for wind and shorter for wing )

I used to have the exact same thoughts as above regarding the longer masts must be a lot better ( before testing everything )
Luckily I could and have tested a lot of the different combos ( short mast / long mast / alu / carbon etc )

What I ended up using is 85cm masts for all ocean / swell foiling as flat water and have to admit that I never feel it is a problem ( about the feeling that the foil is close to jumping out of the water ). I mostly foil open ocean and carving down winders in the swell

Another way you can look at it ( this is my view ), is that regardless of mast length you always aim to ride it with the water line in the middle of the mast. So the difference is not 10cm ( from a 90 to a 100cm mast ) , but 5cm ( extra before foil is breaching, if you riding the mast height in the middle ),,. Again this is just how a look at it,,

Also Utc comments above on the extra length is valid and can be 'painful' as you have to go a bit deeper to get up etc.

JD: not sure if the longer masts will make you carve harder?
Not having a go, but can't think why a 100+ would be better than a 85cm.

J

Sail Repair,
A practical limit to how hard most can carve is keeping the wing tips in the water and the hull out of the water. Here are two set ups with the only difference being mast length. So, a longer mast can carve harder.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..
Sail Repair,
A practical li,it to how hard mere mortals can carve is keep the wing tips in and the hull out of the water. Here are two set ups with the only difference being mast length. The longer mast can carve harder.

Cant argue with your diagram!
I have foiled both 103 mast and 92 mast and it's my opinion that while the longer mast gives more room for error and can theoretically be banked over further it's not as reactive as the shorter mast.
For tight carves I prefer the 92.
Windfoiling is one thing, very few wingers out there on masts longer than 90

Like Simon said, your theory / diagram is 100% correct, and I expected that this would be answer to my question.

However, in 'real time on the water' I feel the limit to carving hard / tight is always the front wing 'giving up' ( like a spin out sensation, when you push it too much ), not the mast length / and 'limited' banked position.

This is with all my front wing ( 920 / 720 / 550 )

Also like Simon pointed out shortly,
I could argue the 85-92cm shorter mast is better for carving as it is more 'reactive' / better feeling

Again the diagram is correct / but on the water it is a different sensation

J

I went from 900 to 1050 mast & it's a game changer in the ocean.
I was always breaching when the board would clip the top of a wave & foil out on the face.
I got good at not crashing & generally recover from breaches most times now ??

The discussion here is very similar to the discussion that revolves around harness lines.
There are so many variables depending on your location, condition, skill level and your style most importantly.
It's a very personal matter because everybody has their own style.
My style might not work for your style.
I suggest you dig down deep and figure out what you're end game is.
Nine times out of 10 people will tell you what you need to hear so they can sell you something.
Personally I spent a lot of time and money figuring out what my style was.
But in the end that's what makes it special for me now that I have found my style.
With windfoiling you have to want it to become proficient.
There is no easy way you must pay your dues.
It took a lot of physical pain and hundreds I mean hundreds of hours on the water.
To get to the point where I'm at now but I'm very happy and I'm still growing.

Just because a kite foiler is using something that works for him doesn't mean it'll work for you.
Just because of Winger uses something that works for him doesn't mean it will work for you.
Be very careful comparing sports and people's advice from other disciplines in the sport.
Kites and wings pull from the top.
A windsurf sail pushes down on the board.
But the bottom line is this is just my opinion and my opinion is not even worth a penny. But if we cross paths on the water you'll understand when this junkyard dog chases you down.
This is not a journey for the faint of heart or one who is a bit tight with their wallet.
GWARN

Select to expand quote

Gwarn said..
The discussion here is very similar to the discussion that revolves around harness lines.
There are so many variables depending on your location, condition, skill level and your style most importantly.
It's a very personal matter because everybody has their own style.
My style might not work for your style.
I suggest you dig down deep and figure out what you're end game is.
Nine times out of 10 people will tell you what you need to hear so they can sell you something.
Personally I spent a lot of time and money figuring out what my style was.
But in the end that's what makes it special for me now that I have found my style.
With windfoiling you have to want it to become proficient.
There is no easy way you must pay your dues.
It took a lot of physical pain and hundreds I mean hundreds of hours on the water.
To get to the point where I'm at now but I'm very happy and I'm still growing.

Just because a kite foiler is using something that works for him doesn't mean it'll work for you.
Just because of Winger uses something that works for him doesn't mean it will work for you.
Be very careful comparing sports and people's advice from other disciplines in the sport.
Kites and wings pull from the top.
A windsurf sail pushes down on the board.
But the bottom line is this is just my opinion and my opinion is not even worth a penny. But if we cross paths on the water you'll understand when this junkyard dog chases you down.
This is not a journey for the faint of heart or one who is a bit tight with their wallet.
GWARN

Totally agree,I remember my first couple of years windsurfing there was always that guy that would tell you how to rig your sail or your fin was junk.only advice I give is if someone asks.As far as my wallet I took it outside and shot it and gave it a decent burial.

As for sensation on the water, having a longer mast gives me the ability to sail free and carve harder then I can with shorter masts....

My most used foil has been the phantasm ptm926. With that foil on flat water with a low entry it is indeed possible to push it too far with a hard carve without breaching the tip. When you do that, it puts on the brakes and really kills you exit speed. As someone who does a lot of tight jibes I will say while this is possible, it is quite rare. Far more likely in gusty, choppy conditions is breaching the tip of the foil. With the 926, this is not catastrophic, the foil makes a slurping sound and slides a little -actually quite fun to do. Unfortunately, this also ruins your efficiency and slows your exit speed, so best done in a gust. A longer mast allows you more latitude to avoid breaching the tip in real world conditions while still giving you the option to throw some spray and slide around when you want to.

Thanks for all the replies.

J and 2 Keen provided helpful insight as they confirmed that skilful riders can use 90cm masts swell riding.

Gwarn - some people do actively seek advice from others in order to consider it and create an informed opinion. It works for me.

I'm on the 103 coming from a 92. I like the extra length/forgiveness in deep chop. I can push faster and turn harder without having to be perfect. It's also just fun flying high