I am very newbie foiler, now. So the question is naive maybe.
The doubt I have: How do you all know if your foil is at optimal high above the water? The problem I could see the judging the depth of the foil is quite tricky and may lead to serious consequences.
I come with another invention to help, maybe something like me , maybe even a professional racer.
Let imagine that our foil mast have few inbuild electrodes, or other sensor that could detect how deep or high above water we are,
then produce acoustic signal, changing pitch relatively.
It could be continues frequency change or according to our scale CDEFG...
this way sailor could hear how deep , above the water he is and adjust position automatically. Possibly the taller the mast is the importance is most critical.
This acoustic feedback may help us to foil at optimal deeth , specific to gear and water conditions.

I am sure the future foil generation will come with automatic , computerized ailerons that will stabilize the depth automatically.Then sailor could go full on power without worry about jumping our of the water full speed.

Maybe also this acoustics could be made mechanically, be whistle changing pitch depending on the high above the water? The purpose of device: for newbie - could speed up the process of e-learning foiling
for racers- there must be the optimal high that provide minimum resistance , maximum speed - like car or bike racer that tune up all his senses with sound of the motor reving.

Look up definition of invention!!!!!!!
You only have ideas.
Isn't crashing and slowly being able to tame the beast until you can go fast, gybe well and if you want do freestyle tricks and ride waves part of the challenge and fun. If you want to go fast on the water with no learning or skill required, go buy a sit on jet ski.

I've wondered about that too Macro. A sonic distance sensor you'd think would be real handy. After a while you get to feel the gurgle as the foil gets too high, you might catch it but it's occasionally a bit late. I'm mostly just rough guessing the height I'm flying at. Moths use a wand to sense height. Why don't they do it acoustically? Maybe batteries are forbidden in the rules?

Alternatively could the breaching characteristics be softened by venting the foil via an inlet on the strut about 150mm above? Or a T section stabilizer that would break clear before the main foil. A biplane rear foil if that was too dramatic.

Trouble with all these good ideas, they've probably alrady been thought of but before anybody has got around to doing something they've learned to cope.

I think IMOC60 type self stabilising foils on semi-planing/semi-foiling hulls might have potential on free foiling boards.

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Ian K said..
I've wondered about that too Macro. A sonic distance sensor you'd think would be real handy. After a while you get to feel the gurgle as the foil gets too high, you might catch it but it's occasionally a bit late. I'm mostly just rough guessing the height I'm flying at. Moths use a wand to sense height. Why don't they do it acoustically? Maybe batteries are forbidden in the rules?

Alternatively could the breaching characteristics be softened by venting the foil via an inlet on the strut about 150mm above? Or a T section stabilizer that would break clear before the main foil. A biplane rear foil if that was too dramatic.

Trouble with all these good ideas, they've probably alrady been thought of but before anybody has got around to doing something they've learned to cope.

I think IMOC60 type self stabilising foils on semi-planing/semi-foiling hulls might have potential on free foiling boards.

I have also another doubts about actual foil design.
Why is mounted at the back and then extended to the front ?
If you use this design to airplane then such plane becomes unflyable, incontrollable,
At least till the electronics arrived and fly by wire to the latest jet fighters. Why we could not install foil mast closer the the mast base , the extend to the back.
Such design will be similar to typical airplane design with is perfectly stable in flight. I am almost sure that existing design prevent anybody to be able to react quickly enough to the smallest changes at speed 50 ktn. One small adjustment and you fly or sink instantly. But if you reverse design as I said then changes in vertical hight will be very incremental not dramatic, of even could be self stabilizing.

First foil near the mast base


first foil even in front of the mast base !!!Vertical stability should be phenomenal

If you want to speed up learning, use the right gear: a decent freeride foil and a formula (or similar) board. I have seen average windsurfer have very nice control within the first few sessions on such gear. In contrast, I have seen better windsurfers struggle more to get to the same level of control on short foil-specific boards. There are big differences between learners, of course, but having people learn on boards intended for intermediates to advanced sailors is a bit like teaching windsurfing to a 100 kg beginner on a 120 l board.

Once you're past your first 10 sessions (which may require more time on the water and less time posting here), the height control becomes automatic. After that, height problems are pretty much limited to changes in water structure or wind. I find gusts and lulls easy to deal with, but every now and then, a steep wave will still kick my foil all the way out of the water, and cause a crash. To compensate for that, you'd need more than height sensors and acoustic indicators - you'd need something like front- and back-looking cameras and pretty sophisticated AI, since you need to make adjustments before hitting that piece of chop, or (what's usually harder) before the chop coming from behind lifts you.

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Swindy said..
Look up definition of invention!!!!!!!
You only have ideas.
Isn't crashing and slowly being able to tame the beast until you can go fast, gybe well and if you want do freestyle tricks and ride waves part of the challenge and fun. If you want to go fast on the water with no learning or skill required, go buy a sit on jet ski.

If you apply your concept to physics, that work of all theoretical physics scientist is completely useless. Unless they to the end of galaxy make a measurements of black holes, inside stars etc where only implemented experiment make sense. Einstein had also only ideas, didn't make any practical bomb by himself....

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Macroscien said..
first foil even in front of the mast base !!!Vertical stability should be phenomenal

Long board => easy touch down & breach handling.
Long fuselage => very good vertical stability.

But those come with drawbacks. What some describe as "more stability", others describe as "slow to turn" and "boring".

Your two-wing design looks very much like the earliest tries to get windsurf boards foiling from the 1980s. You get most of the stability from a long fuse - racers use 115 cm, compared to less than 80 cm for most freeride foils. If you watch a race, you'll very rarely see any breaches - and many foil racers have pretty limited experience on foils.

Hello,

I think I got the design you are speaking about, a front wing with a adjustable flap to increase power depending on high, rear stabiliser with adjustable angle when sailing. Over 10years ago was working on the production of these nice piece of kit, compare to them windfoiling look basic but some time plug and play system is nice no worries it will ride

Height control becomes a non-issue on flat water after very little time with the foil.
Height measuring devices are only useful on fast water.
A foil that is too stable makes navigating swells more difficult, not less.

I dont think your invention is a solution to a real problem. Ride height is a nonissue for most foilers who have a few sessions under their belt (varying from 1 to 20 depending on prior experience with windsurfing, learning rate, age and type of kit)

20 sessions! You did mention age amongst the variables I suppose .

I still think you've just learnt to cope. Here's a lidar range finding module for $42. weighs 11 grams runs on 5 volts. Flush mount it just in front of the strut. Drive a sound module in your hemet to suit. Maybe silent in an adjustable height band, humming if a little if high or low. Maybe a linear VCO. Racers might find they gain 10 metres on the upwind leg by aiming for B# and on the downwind leg, middle C. After a while they'd develop perfect pitch. It'd warble nicely in choppy water but still be better than hit and miss.

Be handy for me during the gybe, you lose horizon reference, you're slowing down, you're banking, the sail locks your view momentarily....

What's the current solution...Get a longer strut.

acroname.com/store/r438-tfmini-plus?sku=R438-TFMINI-PLUS&gclid=Cj0KCQiAwf39BRCCARIsALXWETzVDVByViQ9ttTnjoY44AETI21dPI5Wyi-B4jo_qmPlN0Hr-z1K5U0aAjP9EALw_wcB#specs

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Macroscien said..
I am very newbie foiler, now. So the question is naive maybe.
The doubt I have: How do you all know if your foil is at optimal high above the water? The problem I could see the judging the depth of the foil is quite tricky and may lead to serious consequences.
I come with another invention to help, maybe something like me , maybe even a professional racer.
Let imagine that our foil mast have few inbuild electrodes, or other sensor that could detect how deep or high above water we are,
then produce acoustic signal, changing pitch relatively.
It could be continues frequency change or according to our scale CDEFG...
this way sailor could hear how deep , above the water he is and adjust position automatically. Possibly the taller the mast is the importance is most critical.
This acoustic feedback may help us to foil at optimal deeth , specific to gear and water conditions.

I am sure the future foil generation will come with automatic , computerized ailerons that will stabilize the depth automatically.Then sailor could go full on power without worry about jumping our of the water full speed.

Maybe also this acoustics could be made mechanically, be whistle changing pitch depending on the high above the water? The purpose of device: for newbie - could speed up the process of e-learning foiling
for racers- there must be the optimal high that provide minimum resistance , maximum speed - like car or bike racer that tune up all his senses with sound of the motor reving.

taaroa is working on a front foil with stabs and several sensors (one of them is located on the mast head and measure how high you are foiling). Taaroa is currently working on the prototype. Look this up on their website
I remember reading an article from a windsurfing magazine several years ago with a board that had front and rear foils (one mast in the back or center of the board and another mast closer to the front). The board reminded me of the elix board. As far as I know, that system never took off.

Sounds overly complicated. Once you learn how to foil, it's fun to adjust the height based on varying wind conditions. Just a little pressure with you feet and learning how high you are, are all part of the fun. Although I think it'd be fun to get a little bolt on foil propeller for days where the wind is dead.

I am waiting patiently for the Taroa with the automated wings and the others that are working on this. Moths, Cup boats and airplanes use them to great advantage. Simple windsurfing ended with teak booms. All of us that learned on fixed wings will be able to use the new tools at a higher level.

How does the sensor know I'm about to jibe and want to loose height as I turn? Will it get confused by cross chop from a boat wake perpendicular to the wind chop? How is it going to react as I go downwind over very tightly spaced chop? My fear is that the system will work fine in relatively flat water but get easily confused in very complex conditions, exactly the time you don't want it to.

As we've learned from the promise of self-driving cars, humans are actually pretty good at reading multiple inputs and making adjustments. We were promised roving fleets of self-driving taxis by this year and we've seen how that still isn't a thing.

To me, this is like a gyroscopic device designed to keep your bicycle upright. Turns out that we do that already pretty well. I applaud the efforts and I'm sure we'll learn a lot along the journey but this isn't something I feel like I need to spend money on (same for efoils).

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bluemoose said..
How does the sensor know I'm about to jibe and want to loose height as I turn? Will it get confused by cross chop from a boat wake perpendicular to the wind chop? How is it going to react as I go downwind over very tightly spaced chop? My fear is that the system will work fine in relatively flat water but get easily confused in very complex conditions, exactly the time you don't want it to.

As we've learned from the promise of self-driving cars, humans are actually pretty good at reading multiple inputs and making adjustments. We were promised roving fleets of self-driving taxis by this year and we've seen how that still isn't a thing.

To me, this is like a gyroscopic device designed to keep your bicycle upright. Turns out that we do that already pretty well. I applaud the efforts and I'm sure we'll learn a lot along the journey but this isn't something I feel like I need to spend money on (same for efoils).

I don't t think they use gyroscopes:
www.taaroa-hydrofoil.com/up-product

they are testing it for windfoiling and wingers; considering that wingers pump the foil/board pretty aggressively, I am not sure how that would work. Looking forward to see it in person some day.

Fully automated might be a bit much. Maybe the need for intermediates to want height indication is related to the tradition of having no control surfaces on surfboards and windsurfers? It certainly simplifies construction and maintenance but is that philosophy a bit overboard now that we've replaced a simple fin with a foil setup?

You can ride a bicycle just on weight distribution. If you practice you can get quite good at it. But handlebars aren't going away. Motorbikes could be designed such that the motor responded to weight sensors beneath the seat. But weight shift, although a lot can be done with it, is not as responsive as a twist grip.

Maybe AA's project to foil at 66 knots will include twist grip height control? That would be a game changer.

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Ian K said..
Fully automated might be a bit much.

Maybe AA's project to foil at 66 knots will include twist grip height control? That would be a game changer.

Yep, i don't think fully automated is a great idea. Theres just too much going on for it to compensate for, not to mention that making it all work is where all the fun comes from. If you want to play passenger get a jet ski.


but i reckon it'd be worth designing a system to allow stabilizer adjustment on the fly. it'd be quite handy to be able to go to max for upwind, but be able to lose a little lift for downwind legs.

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WillyWind said..

bluemoose said..
How does the sensor know I'm about to jibe and want to loose height as I turn? Will it get confused by cross chop from a boat wake perpendicular to the wind chop? How is it going to react as I go downwind over very tightly spaced chop? My fear is that the system will work fine in relatively flat water but get easily confused in very complex conditions, exactly the time you don't want it to.

As we've learned from the promise of self-driving cars, humans are actually pretty good at reading multiple inputs and making adjustments. We were promised roving fleets of self-driving taxis by this year and we've seen how that still isn't a thing.

To me, this is like a gyroscopic device designed to keep your bicycle upright. Turns out that we do that already pretty well. I applaud the efforts and I'm sure we'll learn a lot along the journey but this isn't something I feel like I need to spend money on (same for efoils).

I don't t think they use gyroscopes:
www.taaroa-hydrofoil.com/up-product

they are testing it for windfoiling and wingers; considering that wingers pump the foil/board pretty aggressively, I am not sure how that would work. Looking forward to see it in person some day.

I think you misread my post. I was using gyroscopes for a bicycle as an analogy for a self-righting system that might make sense to the uninitiated but isn't really necessary in practice.

You do point out a problem that re-enforces my concerns - quite often, we don't want to ride level and pumping a foil is a prime example.

Subsonic's idea of a remote control for stab angle I could go for. What works upwind can be a handful off the wind.