Same with me, guys. 19 out of 20 sessions are foil now. It just feels like a better way of doing it. If it blows its arse off all the time where you live this ratio will be different. Where I live (Newcastle) we just don't get 20+kts very often but we do get plenty of 8-16kts. Also, I have a 8M foil sail that I use in 8-25 kts which simplifies things a whole lot. If you have the money I would prioritise investing in a foil board. It makes progressing much easier and, in the unlikely event that foiling doesn't float your boat, you will have no problem selling it. If you don't, I reckon an old, wide slalom board will work well.
Around here foils outnumber fins easily. In 15kts if your a good fin sailor and can muscle your 8.4 and 80cm wide board you will probably have an ok time. If you're on a foil in 15kts you don't have to be that good (or big, strong) to have a super exhilarating, satisfying session with a much smaller sail (depending on foil type).

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Harrow said..

LeeD said..
With your smallest sail, you will be out of control OP in 12-20 mph winds.

Wow. I've only used the 4.7 twice, and that was in 30+ knots.

Normally I'd use the 5.3 in 25 knots, 5.9 in 22 knots, 6.6 in 18 knots.

What would be the typical sails used for my 66kg with the Wizard 125 and Infinity 76 foil combination for different wind ranges? What would be the lowest wind speed I could expect to get up?

Thanks.

Before you expect miracles, with a normal board and 66kg you should be able to get going in 12-13 knots (average, so with a little bit more in the gusts) or so with 6.6, and 18 knots with 5.3.

Foiling will ofcourse help you get going earlier, no doubt about it, but seen as you are objectively speaking a late planer, the effect of the foil on your sailable days will not be as big as it could be. A foil really starts amplifying your early planing potential if you have a good technique (look at it as an exponential curve, the better your technique, the exponentially earlier you'll get flying on the foil). For now, I estimate you'll be able to get going with a sail about 1-1.5m smaller than you normally would in the same wind.

If you work on your technique, with 66kg you should be able to get going with 5.3 in 10-11 knots easily, but it won't start out that way, and once you do get going in 11 knots with 5.3, you might also get going in 12-13 knots with 6.6 on the normal board.

As for boards / foils, seen as you ride small sails, and the slingshot infinity foils are also very forgiving for sailors with a little more passive planing technique, the slingshot might be a very good match for you. If you have the chance, since you'll be able to float anyway, also try the 105L Wizard! Smaller is better in my opinion, although it will "glide" a little bit less than the 125 when getting on the plane due to the very short length.

I still prefer the fin in good conditions. The foil is a session saver.

I own slingshot gear and I'd recommend NP, the quality is far higher and price lower plus you can fit powerbox. I wouldn't worry about box strength unless I was very heavy on a wide board.

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Boston! said..
Same with me, guys. 19 out of 20 sessions are foil now. It just feels like a better way of doing it. If it blows its arse off all the time where you live this ratio will be different. Where I live (Newcastle) we just don't get 20+kts very often but we do get plenty of 8-16kts. Also, I have a 8M foil sail that I use in 8-25 kts which simplifies things a whole lot. If you have the money I would prioritise investing in a foil board. It makes progressing much easier and, in the unlikely event that foiling doesn't float your boat, you will have no problem selling it. If you don't, I reckon an old, wide slalom board will work well.
Around here foils outnumber fins easily. In 15kts if your a good fin sailor and can muscle your 8.4 and 80cm wide board you will probably have an ok time. If you're on a foil in 15kts you don't have to be that good (or big, strong) to have a super exhilarating, satisfying session with a much smaller sail (depending on foil type).

Where are you sailing most of the time?
I've just got a foil and beef'd up the fin box on my old SB formula board in preparation and am keen as all heck to get going.

@Harrow

My 5 cents from the point of having started about 4 weeks ago.

What to start with?
If you can get a demo / rental / loaner from someone for the first two or three sessions that would be ideal. I was lucky enough to get my hands on a demo Slingshot Wizard 125 in combo with a Ridengine foil which had a 61 cm mast.

I am 110 kgs and did my first session was in about 15 knots of wind with a 5.3 on choppy water. It was a handful. But progression is fast and after about two or three sessions you could be able to get relatively long flights with decent control of the foil.

I think if you know how to surf and and are a reasonably advanced windsurfer you should be able to attempt your first jibes after only a few hours on the water.Helpful tips?
As others have said, you should have a smaller sail than you would use windsurfing in the same conditions. Ideally you want to be underpowered... if you can easily water start then your sail is probably already too big.

Ask other people for tips and have a look at various foil instructional videos on YouTube by Balz M?ller, Foil Academy and co. Put those tips into practice as soon as you can get back out on the water even if that means you might miss a windsurf day.

What gear next?
As others have stated the Slingshot i76 + 90 mast package is a great free ride foil. It's a bit more versatile than the systems by other brands and not as difficult to ride (or expensive) as the pure race foils. At the end it will probably come down to what you can actually buy. Slingshot seems readily available. Some of the other brands are a bit more like finding a unicorn.

As for a board, I think you could use a door from Bunnings and mount a foil to it and it would sort of work. The most important part is the fin box to foot strap to mast track position. On "normal" windsurf boards that setup won't work particularly well for foiling. I think that's the reason why most brands are now coming out with dedicated free ride foil boards.

The Slingshot boards are great and should keep their value given they are quite popular. If you can find a used formula board you might be able to reset the straps and put in a re-inforced deep Tuttle foil box.

Do people move over to foiling and give up windsurfing?
Don't know about other people but I like wave sailing too much to give it up. But windfoiling will extend your time on the water on those lighter days in the 10-12 knt range.

Yes you could get a 10 m slalom sail for those days but who wants to fight a 15 kg rig. The feeling of windfoiling is probably more like surfing than full power windsurfing.

It's a bit like the first time you get your windsurf board on the plane. Once you get that feeling of the first flight you'll be hooked!

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WhiteofHeart said..Foiling will ofcourse help you get going earlier, no doubt about it, but seen as you are objectively speaking a late planer, the effect of the foil on your sailable days will not be as big as it could be. A foil really starts amplifying your early planing potential if you have a good technique (look at it as an exponential curve, the better your technique, the exponentially earlier you'll get flying on the foil). For now, I estimate you'll be able to get going with a sail about 1-1.5m smaller than you normally would in the same wind.

I'm curious what you mean by 'objectively a late planner'? Are you referring to the fact that I don't use 8 meter sails? I'm usually the first to get going compared to others of similar size using the same gear, and last to drop off the plane when the wind starts to lull. I tend be out planning when they are on the beach waiting for it to pick up, but I was thinking of foiling so that I'd be comfortable powered up instead of having to work on the edge on the all too frequent marginal days. I'd figured the fact that foiling seems to use small sails would be in my favour because of all that, not against it.

Been doing lots of reading, and now have a few last questions......

Wizard 105 vs 125. Why would I want one rather than the other? Would really like to hear the pro's and con's.

I love using my 78 FSW instead of the 105 Rocket once the wind is up, so I guess that might be a similar feeling, except I'd be on the same foil for both boards, so does it feel so different? And considering my primary goal is light winds, how much advantage does the 125 have there, again same foil, so is there much difference? Lastly, would the 125 be more 'stable' than the 105, or is it just for bigger guys to be able to uphaul, in which case given my light weight, do I therefore go to the 105, or is it really for stronger winds and its the 125 I want.....I mean, 6'6" already sounds crazy short to me, without going to 5'10" with the 105. The 125 is already as short as the shorter JP and Naish options, and I'm partly thinking the 125 gives me a tack option that would be nice to have and perhaps less nose dive risk?

Also, looking at the Naish option, I'm wondering how useful inside strap positions and having the ability to move the foil are? Robby is a good salesman...the 1150 video looks attractive.

Thanks again in advance, this should just about be it.

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Harrow said..
Been doing lots of reading, and now have a few last questions......

Wizard 105 vs 125. Why would I want one rather than the other? Would really like to hear the pro's and con's.

I love using my 78 FSW instead of the 105 Rocket once the wind is up, so I guess that might be a similar feeling, except I'd be on the same foil for both boards, so does it feel so different? And considering my primary goal is light winds, how much advantage does the 125 have there, again same foil, so is there much difference? Lastly, would the 125 be more 'stable' than the 105, or is it just for bigger guys to be able to uphaul, in which case given my light weight, do I therefore go to the 105, or is it really for stronger winds and its the 125 I want.....I mean, 6'6" already sounds crazy short to me, without going to 5'10" with the 105. The 125 is already as short as the shorter JP and Naish options, and I'm partly thinking the 125 gives me a tack option that would be nice to have and perhaps less nose dive risk?

Also, looking at the Naish option, I'm wondering how useful inside strap positions and having the ability to move the foil are? Robby is a good salesman...the 1150 video looks attractive.

Thanks again in advance, this should just about be it.

Yeah that naish video does look good.

I learned on the wizard 125 and then moved to the 105 (I was about 75kgs back then). Not sure if I could have learned on the 105. I didn't really tack either one of them. Uphauling on the 125 is a bit easier. Schlogging in light wind will be a little easier on the 125 and it will foil up just little earlier than the 105 with vigorous pumping

I think we are in the early phase where we are trying to still figure out short and wide (wizard) versus longer and thinner (hover glide). The wizards dominated in cali at least the last two seasons, but I expect things to diversify a bit. I am currently riding the slingshot freestyle 115 which is kickarse.

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timford said..

Boston! said..
Same with me, guys. 19 out of 20 sessions are foil now. It just feels like a better way of doing it. If it blows its arse off all the time where you live this ratio will be different. Where I live (Newcastle) we just don't get 20+kts very often but we do get plenty of 8-16kts. Also, I have a 8M foil sail that I use in 8-25 kts which simplifies things a whole lot. If you have the money I would prioritise investing in a foil board. It makes progressing much easier and, in the unlikely event that foiling doesn't float your boat, you will have no problem selling it. If you don't, I reckon an old, wide slalom board will work well.
Around here foils outnumber fins easily. In 15kts if your a good fin sailor and can muscle your 8.4 and 80cm wide board you will probably have an ok time. If you're on a foil in 15kts you don't have to be that good (or big, strong) to have a super exhilarating, satisfying session with a much smaller sail (depending on foil type).

Where are you sailing most of the time?
I've just got a foil and beef'd up the fin box on my old SB formula board in preparation and am keen as all heck to get going.

All the usual LM spots, Tim. Valo tomorrow and Sunday.

Harrow
I'm 85 kgs, had a Wizard 125 for 12 months now have a Wizard 105.
The 125 is easier to get going in light wind as it's longer but with good technique the 105 is not far behind. Obviously the 105 has a lower swing weight which allows for more aggressive sailing.
At your weight you could go straight to the 105 BUT at only a day a month the learning phase to get good technique may be frustrating. Ideally get the 105 and put in a week solid, if that's not possible get the 125 and foil whenever you can.
Don't be concerned about your 78 Vs 105 current boards, foiling doesn't quite work like that.
I haven't personally sailed it but don't discount the SS 115 Freestyle, it has the option of Tuttle or track and inboard or outboard straps.
And yes I think you'll be wanting a smaller sail, possibly a 4.0 to compliment your quiver
Good luck

If I was buying a new foil specific board I'd make sure it had both deep tuttle and tracks. Also inboard and outboard straps.

If light wind is the goal then you want width. But by moving the straps in as the wind comes up you can really change the nature of the board.

I'm getting the idea that people tend to have only one foil board?

Is that right, and If so, does it mean they have a couple of different foil wings to swap over for different wind strength?

The reason I ask is I'm wondering if it would be a logical thing to get the 125, and then later something like the 103 for the stronger days, and have two, pretty much like I did with my 105 and 78 boards. Or would most people just have, say the 105, and use it for everything?

Harrow, I think it depends on your average wind speed. If you are most often using your larger sails the 125L could be the call. A 6.6 seems big for the 105L but I have no experience with it. I am 84kg and can sail my 7.3 on my 125L Wiz no problem. Also having too much board when foiling is way less of a big deal than having too much board when slapping, so a single board quiver is possible if you stay on the large side. My last board was a 241cm x 73cm board at 123L and I had it out on a big day with a 3.2 and it behaved fine. I wouldn't dream of doing that with a fin.

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Harrow said..
I'm getting the idea that people tend to have only one foil board?

Is that right, and If so, does it mean they have a couple of different foil wings to swap over for different wind strength?

The reason I ask is I'm wondering if it would be a logical thing to get the 125, and then later something like the 103 for the stronger days, and have two, pretty much like I did with my 105 and 78 boards. Or would most people just have, say the 105, and use it for everything?

Yes most people have one foil board and multiple wings.

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Harrow said..
I'm getting the idea that people tend to have only one foil board?

Is that right, and If so, does it mean they have a couple of different foil wings to swap over for different wind strength?

The reason I ask is I'm wondering if it would be a logical thing to get the 125, and then later something like the 103 for the stronger days, and have two, pretty much like I did with my 105 and 78 boards. Or would most people just have, say the 105, and use it for everything?

Great advice from Simon above. Regarding the wizard 125 vs 105

I don't own earlier board yet so take this with a grain of salt. I think it depends a lot on what wind your spot typically gets also. I mostly sail on lakes which can be gusty. I started out on a bigger board foiling the last 2 years; it was awesome for learning and carrying bigger sails up to 7.8m when the wind is lighter but now I want a board that is smaller like the wizard 105 for stronger wind 12 knots+. So now I'm into two foil boards. I will get a smaller wing to allow me to foil in stronger winds and not be affected by the lift of the wing as much(especially going down a wave). I think the future will have people changing wings instead of sails and using a bigger wing instead of a bigger sail since small sail are way more fun anyways and generally cost less money. 2 wings can cover 8-30kts but get a smaller sail. I'm a light weight aswell(65kgs). Will have to see where the wizard 105 takes me but with a big wing like the infinty 76, 84 or 99 and a 6m sail could be not bad in light wind for a aggressive pumper, once you get better.
The good foilers on the 105 get going just as early as guys on the 125 but you need to work for it instead of waiting for the gust to lift someone on the 125. I imagine the learning curve will be a lot steaper if you get the 105 starting out but will be more fun to sail once you get better. Since you already are used to sailing small boards and if your willing to pump and don't want to carry sails over 6m go for the 105 and have good consistant wind to allow you to get lots of session.
You can still up haul the 105 btw. I've heard of guys using 7.0m on the 105 no worries. But you can't go wrong with the 125 in your case.

Okay, here's my thinking....I'm tending toward the 125. I don't get out a lot, often because conditions are marginal in Sydney when I'm free, and I just want this board to get me out on the water on those 10 to 15 knot days.

Seems the 125 will get me going a little earlier with minimal effort, allow me to get out and have a relaxed sail, and will be more stable than the 105. Would the 125 be easier to gybe and control simply due to the extra swing weight size making it more stable and carrying through the turn smoother and easier, is that how it works?

If I can just cruise across the bay and do a nice slow wide gybe and come back, then my goal is achieved. I'd even think of sticking the 84 wing on it eventually and using the 5.9 or 6.6 for really light days, seems this should be doable. Am I right the only real drawback of the large board is simply less manoeuvrability, it's not like a normal large board that will get unwieldy and be harder to control as the breeze picks up.

WIth all this in mind, should be no major regrets with the 125 as far as I can see. Have I got this right, any fault in my logic?

Thanks guys.

Hmm, so far I've been assuming the i76, but is there a case for the i84 instead for the light conditions I'm targeting? Is it just less manoeuvrable, or would it become a handful as the wind picks up a little?

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Harrow said..
Hmm, so far I've been assuming the i76, but is there a case for the i84 instead for the light conditions I'm targeting? Is it just less manoeuvrable, or would it become a handful as the wind picks up a little?

At your size, the 84 (imho) is overkill. It will add almost nothing to your bottom end, be a handful and draggy as the wind picks up. I'm just a touch bigger than you and a 1500cm2 wing is as big as I'd ever want to go. Most of the time, I'd rather be on 1100 or less. I think a 125 l board also is right for what you want to do. I don't think anyone in this video would disagree with you

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Harrow said..
Hmm, so far I've been assuming the i76, but is there a case for the i84 instead for the light conditions I'm targeting? Is it just less manoeuvrable, or would it become a handful as the wind picks up a little?

Agree with Paducah.
Reading all your requirements I reckon the 125 and 76 fits the bill.

You don't need the 84 at your weight and you'll find it a little easier to learn and sail light winds with the 125 than the 105.

Okay, Wizard 125 with i76.

Mast height, the 91, right?

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Harrow said..

WhiteofHeart said..Foiling will ofcourse help you get going earlier, no doubt about it, but seen as you are objectively speaking a late planer, the effect of the foil on your sailable days will not be as big as it could be. A foil really starts amplifying your early planing potential if you have a good technique (look at it as an exponential curve, the better your technique, the exponentially earlier you'll get flying on the foil). For now, I estimate you'll be able to get going with a sail about 1-1.5m smaller than you normally would in the same wind.

I'm curious what you mean by 'objectively a late planner'? Are you referring to the fact that I don't use 8 meter sails? I'm usually the first to get going compared to others of similar size using the same gear, and last to drop off the plane when the wind starts to lull. I tend be out planning when they are on the beach waiting for it to pick up, but I was thinking of foiling so that I'd be comfortable powered up instead of having to work on the edge on the all too frequent marginal days. I'd figured the fact that foiling seems to use small sails would be in my favour because of all that, not against it.

If that's the case, then maybe you are overestimating the wind or underestimating your weight... or your board's weight .

FWIW, at your weight a modern 92L freestyle board and 4.8, 4.4, 4.0 freestyle sails (ideally on a 100% mast with a carbon boom) will give you range from 18 to 30 knots.

You can put a foil on a freestyle board as well. I don't know how much more bottom end you'll get that way, but in theory you could get away with 4.4, 4.0 sails (both rigging on a 370 mast), a freestyle board, and a foil for 15-30 knots.

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Faff said..
If that's the case, then maybe you are overestimating the wind or underestimating your weight... or your board's weight .

FWIW, at your weight a modern 92L freestyle board and 4.8, 4.4, 4.0 freestyle sails (ideally on a 100% mast with a carbon boom) will give you range from 18 to 30 knots.

You can put a foil on a freestyle board as well. I don't know how much more bottom end you'll get that way, but in theory you could get away with 4.4, 4.0 sails (both rigging on a 370 mast), a freestyle board, and a foil for 15-30 knots.

I think he assumed they were the minimum wind speeds for each sail, I meant them as average/upper end. Plus there's a big hole in the middle of the run on Botany Bay, so an extra half-metre or more comes in handy.

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Harrow said..
Okay, Wizard 125 with i76. Mast height, the 91, right?

Yes, if you buy from Jesper he'll lend you a 61cm mast for the first couple of sessions.
Not a necessity but can help.

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2keen said..
I haven't personally sailed it but don't discount the SS 115 Freestyle, it has the option of Tuttle or track and inboard or outboard straps.

That board look like the duck's guts to me.
Those guys have done serious market research on non-racing foil customers. I want one (115L).
Price/availability?
Mort

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Harrow said..

WhiteofHeart said..Foiling will ofcourse help you get going earlier, no doubt about it, but seen as you are objectively speaking a late planer, the effect of the foil on your sailable days will not be as big as it could be. A foil really starts amplifying your early planing potential if you have a good technique (look at it as an exponential curve, the better your technique, the exponentially earlier you'll get flying on the foil). For now, I estimate you'll be able to get going with a sail about 1-1.5m smaller than you normally would in the same wind.

I'm curious what you mean by 'objectively a late planner'? Are you referring to the fact that I don't use 8 meter sails? I'm usually the first to get going compared to others of similar size using the same gear, and last to drop off the plane when the wind starts to lull. I tend be out planning when they are on the beach waiting for it to pick up, but I was thinking of foiling so that I'd be comfortable powered up instead of having to work on the edge on the all too frequent marginal days. I'd figured the fact that foiling seems to use small sails would be in my favour because of all that, not against it.

Well, with 66kg I'd say you should be able to get planing in 12-13 knots with a 6.6, I read your post as saying you get planing in 18 with that size sail. If thats the case I'd say you are a late planer. Could be that your knots and my knots are not the same ofcourse and you are an early planer ;). My 12-13 knots are the average wind. We often get an "average", some little bit lower lulls (say 10), but heavier gusts (so maybe 15-17knots at most). The 12-13 knots I mean would be the wind you get most of the time, which is not really the same as average ofcourse.

Ofcourse foiling will be a great addition to your windsurfing armory and expand your comfortably sailable range by a huge amount! I'm just saying that a very active planer gets a lot more low wind performance out of a foil, and the difference is a lot bigger than with regular windsurfing.

I think the I84 would be overkill aswell, although I've expressed my opinion many times, saying any wing over 1300cm2 surface area (so also the I76) is overkill in a lot of situations aswell and for me as a 95% "flatwater" vs 5% wave rider the advantages in early planing (which are minimal) and power gained out of swell doesn't weight up against the disadvantages in speed, upwind performance, manouvrability and water resistance/glide, even with a small sail.