I'd like to fly around the river (and offshore if not weedy) in light winds of 8-12 knots.
No intention racing but want to cruise with speed and efficiency.

What will work ??
I'd prefer, if possible, to buy the board, foil and sail a few seasons old to save cost as long as performance is optimum.
If I lose a few degrees upwind by not having a super-wide board, that's fine.

Cheers for any advice

Kite

Although you're not interested in racing, a high aspect ratio foil will have speed and take off early. I weigh 75 kilos and use a freerace boards 135l, 76cm wide with the starboard 1000 wing, and a freerace 3 cam 8.5m Flyer FR. I can get going pretty early and have much higher cruising speed and better glide than a low or mid aspec ratio foil.

For light winds and bigger sails I find you need a wide board, particularly to go upwind. I cruise in those speeds with a 7.0 Sailworks Flyier, a 1400HA Naish front wing and a 77 wide board, but I also made myself a platform to extend the rear feet positions if I want

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WillyWind said..
Although you're not interested in racing, a high aspect ratio foil will have speed and take off early. I weigh 75 kilos and use a freerace boards 135l, 76cm wide with the starboard 1000 wing, and a freerace 3 cam 8.5m Flyer FR. I can get going pretty early and have much higher cruising speed and better glide than a low or mid aspec ratio foil.

Cheers - thanks for your specs

I wasn't clear in my post, I realize I need a "race" windfoil setup (9m sail, HA wing, wide board, long fuse etc.).
Just didn't know which used kit a few years old I should look for.

I have been getting into the psuedo race foiling on an old wizard 125 with the sabfoil 1010 fuse and w800. My course racing friend points higher and goes faster, but i am enjoying myself

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thedoor said..
I have been getting into the psuedo race foiling on an old wizard 125 with the sabfoil 1010 fuse and w800. My course racing friend points higher and goes faster, but i am enjoying myself

Cheers - is that setup fast in 8-12 knots?

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azymuth said..

WillyWind said..
Although you're not interested in racing, a high aspect ratio foil will have speed and take off early. I weigh 75 kilos and use a freerace boards 135l, 76cm wide with the starboard 1000 wing, and a freerace 3 cam 8.5m Flyer FR. I can get going pretty early and have much higher cruising speed and better glide than a low or mid aspec ratio foil.

Cheers - thanks for your specs

I wasn't clear in my post, I realize I need a "race" windfoil setup (9m sail, HA wing, wide board, long fuse etc.).
Just didn't know which used kit a few years old I should look for.

This is a very sensitive topic.
There are quite a lot stuff in the market to reach that goal.
Everything depends by how much you want engage yourself....
Super wide boards (85cm+) can be easily charged with sail sizes 8.0mq+ and HA stiff foils. .This way you'll "feel" the light wind and you'll pump the system onto foiling. That kind of stuff is expensive, engaging and got a lot of evolutions in short time. It can be 202o used stuff is already overtaken.
Or you can use a 81 cm (foil dedicated) board (which has less drag) paired with any efficient foil (up to you to choose HA or more a freeride thing) and light sail (less or no cams vs the racing stuff). This way you won't need super big/powerful/heavy to uphoul sail size BUT you must be good to feel the super light wind and pump the system onto foiling mode. Usually this kind of stuff could be a tiny slower in UP/down wind things.
Last solution i may advice you (late EU trend if you want save money,time,,energy) is to go with (dedicated foil board, such as patrck foil ride 75 or similar) and use big front wings paired with sails around 7.0 mq. You won't be the quickest to get going but as soon the wind stabilizes you will fly very easy.

Have a look at the IQFoils stuff. The woman sail size would be what i would get. 8 qm is much easier to uphaul than 9.
If you want to go cheap get a well used >=85cm board. Look at the foilbox, some may be broken. Race stuff is not made for the eternity.
An older starboard race foil with longer fuse would do the job. 800 frontwing is really fast. And it is cheap. Have seen some for around 500usd.

I love my 85w JP135 with GTR+ lots of glide and nice speed. Like you, I don't race, but just enjoy cruising around with a bit of speed and efficiency. I'm 95kg and was using a 7m 2XC twin cam (non-foil) and had no problem in the 8-14kt winds down in Bunbury today. gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2022-10-09&team=2

Agree with stretch, the JP135 would be great for fast cruising paired with the Simmer 920 free race foil and a 7m or 7.8 2xc. I recently got 25.7 2s with the 920 wing and a 7m sail.
My Patrik 91 foil comp would also be a good cheap board option for better up wind angles.

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Swindy said..
Agree with stretch, the JP135 would be great for fast cruising paired with the Simmer 920 free race foil and a 7m or 7.8 2xc. I recently got 25.7 2s with the 920 wing and a 7m sail.
My Patrik 91 foil comp would also be a good cheap board option for better up wind angles.

Cheers for the advice - Power, W100, Pat and Stretchy


Roger, stoked to see you got 25 knots on the Simmer Blackbird 920cm2 - I have that wing but would need a jackplate (to fit Tuttle) and longer fuse (I'm guessing) to use my Phantasm mast. What fuse are you using?

Big fan of Simmer rigs so I'll ask Jesper to order me a 7.8 2XC, had a few when I was speed sailing - awesome sails.

Interested in your Patrik 91 - it's a big mother but I think perfect for 8-12

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Stretchy said..
I love my 85w JP135 with GTR+ lots of glide and nice speed. Like you, I don't race, but just enjoy cruising around with a bit of speed and efficiency. I'm 95kg and was using a 7m 2XC twin cam (non-foil) and had no problem in the 8-14kt winds down in Bunbury today. gpsteamchallenge.com.au/sailor_session/show?date=2022-10-09&team=2

I got the same 2021 GTR+ setup that Stretch has (with the 800 front wing and 95+ fuse) for cruising around, with a similar sail. In heavy chop, the setup is quite a handful to control. I later got the 1100 freeride front wing with the 105 Evo fuse. For my limited skills and limited pumping efforts, the 1100 gets going easier, is easier to control in chop, and I get almost the same speeds. Some of the differences are probably due to the longer fuse.
If you're considering getting new foil gear, keep in mind that the 2022 setup came with a 650 front wing. I don't know how that compares to the 800 and 1100 front wings. Newer foils tend to be more efficient, but I have not really seen anyone recommend foils this small for light winds. That said, my wife now uses a 725 front wing for winging even in relatively light wind (9-10 knot averages measured with a handheld meter); and the largest slalom-specific (SLR) front wing in the SB lineup is a 560.

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azymuth said..

thedoor said..
I have been getting into the psuedo race foiling on an old wizard 125 with the sabfoil 1010 fuse and w800. My course racing friend points higher and goes faster, but i am enjoying myself

Cheers - is that setup fast in 8-12 knots?

Faster than anything else I have foiled and getting close to 20knots in pretty marginal wind. No one else out. I wouldn't mind more outboard straps though, I think that must be a key to speed.



edit parts of the video have gps data

I went with that board as I already had a medium tuttle carbon GW mast that would take the moses slalom fuse. I still haven't gotten used to carrying a lot more sail, but it seems like when you do you need to crank upwind to survive.

Maybe at 12 knots reaching on and IQ like set up is fine but looks pretty challenging when the wind picks up. So a toned down free-race set up seems more appealing to me right now eg

www.sailworks.com/the-gear/foiling/foil-boards/roberts-carbon-custom-windfoil-board-gt-27.html

AFS foil 95 or 85 cm mast with F1080 cm2 wing on a Goya Bolt 135 L board with Aerotech Freespeed 8.0/7.2 sail work perfect in those conditions, no need for specialized race gear IMO. 8.0 sail for 8-9 knots, 7.2 sail 10-12. Could use a 5.8 too with solid 12 knots depending on body weight.

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Swindy said..
Agree with stretch, the JP135 would be great for fast cruising paired with the Simmer 920 free race foil and a 7m or 7.8 2xc. I recently got 25.7 2s with the 920 wing and a 7m sail.
My Patrik 91 foil comp would also be a good cheap board option for better up wind angles.

Solid advice from these two. Just to add my flavor.

I used to sail with a GA Cosmic 7.7 and while it's replacement, 2 cam Airride was a better option, I got a lot of fun and grins from it. A higher aspect, shorter boom foil sail will do better upwind angles and be a bit more stable but I don't know enough about the 2xc to say if it will be shy of something foil specific (FG ,NP V-8 Flight, Phantom Iris X, F-Pace etc). I see that for '22, Simmer seems to have replaced it with the SMax which is designed with foiling in mind, too.

Unless you are really chasing upwind speed and efficiency, I'd be wary something like the HGO 8 even though it's now my daily driver in 7-15. Dealing with the cams and big luff sleeve definitely makes it an acquired taste. It is a marvelous sail but you'll definitely notice it. The good news with all the better sails in this range is that it's super easy to go from there down to a 5.5 with no problems.

The Simmer/Zeeko range will provide you with lots of options. As a user of Starboard foils from 1000 on down, again, unless you are racing, no need to spend the extra money plus at your size (as opposed to mine), getting off the water is going to be key to having fun so I'd be wary of suggesting a wing below 900. Until this experiment proves itself, by the time you are really using something like a 725/800 to its best advantage, you may be wanting to be on your small gear instead.

Sailing small gear is amazing, of course, but ripping along, pushing hard without a white cap in sight is its own special fun. Very excited for you.

Depending on your location, you might be able to find a used iQFoil youth board. They are 210x 85cm and 150l, so they are not nearly as big as the bigger sibling. That board is very similar to the starboard freeride foilboard, which is actually a freerace board (based on the recommended foils to pair with). As long as you buy a foil dedicated board that is 75cm or wider and designed as a freeride/freerace board you should be fine. Just to give you an example, One of the first JP boards designed for racing ended up being the freeride design a couple of years later, when race board started becoming much wider and with more volume.
regarding the fuselage length, I am using the 115 plus alI the time in light wind; I think any brand with a fuse around 115 cm should work.
If you weigh less than 70 kilos you can get away with an 800 wing with a 115 fuse and a 7m 2-3 cam sail.

Buy a race fuselage for your existing foil, find a older Formula or light wind slalom board and put a track box in.
Add an ~8m sail and you're laughing.

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azymuth said..

Swindy said..
Agree with stretch, the JP135 would be great for fast cruising paired with the Simmer 920 free race foil and a 7m or 7.8 2xc. I recently got 25.7 2s with the 920 wing and a 7m sail.
My Patrik 91 foil comp would also be a good cheap board option for better up wind angles.

Cheers for the advice - Power, W100, Pat and Stretchy


Roger, stoked to see you got 25 knots on the Simmer Blackbird 920cm2 - I have that wing but would need a jackplate (to fit Tuttle) and longer fuse (I'm guessing) to use my Phantasm mast. What fuse are you using?

Big fan of Simmer rigs so I'll ask Jesper to order me a 7.8 2XC, had a few when I was speed sailing - awesome sails.

Interested in your Patrik 91 - it's a big mother but I think perfect for 8-12

Using the 115 and 105 fuse. That speed was on the 115 fuse in 18kn, probably should have had the 700 front and 105 on but the session started at about 12 kn.

The thing to remember, and please let me know if I am not being accurate, is if you use a race foil with a wide foil board in light wind you are going to have to pump the sail all-out to get up every time. Now if your runs are several miles long then great, but if you have runs under a mile it may get to be more work than you were expecting. Now if you can foil gybe in those conditions, and the winds are steady, versus gusty, then you will never come down, so a energetic pump up the first time is no big deal!

High aspect wings have by definition less lift, and so require more work to get up on, but once up they have so much less drag that they stay up easier in light wind and glide longer in the lulls, that is my understanding, but I have never used one, for the above reasons, so far!

sandman I think your comments are fair, however yesterday my HA 800wing worked fairly well in gusty, unsteady 8-14kt winds, about 1 mile runs. The reason it worked was keeping the board flying, or at least planing in the gybes. My foiling skills are long way below Asymuth's and Swindy's, but I focussed on gybing in the gusts and if (well when really ) I touched down, a couple of short sharp pumps and I'd be straight back up on the foil again. I also had a -2 shim setup, -1 would have made it easier again. A 900 wing would also have been better in the lulls, but to be honest I think I prefer the controllability of the 800 when up to speed on the reaches.

8 to 12 knots imo is a large gap in wind strength (50% increase in wind strength if my maths is correct)
for me at 8kn constant i would rig a 10m sail and 1 meter wing (millennium).
At 12kn i would go to a 9m and 900 foil for racing but could cruise around on a 8.0 and 900 foil easily.
The 10.0 and 1000 combo would go down to 6kn with a lot of pumping.
Interestingly at around 8-10knots i could pop on all of the following set ups.
Race foil - 10.0/1000foil
Free ride foil - 5.6 blade/1400 naish foil
Wingding - 6.0ding/1400 naish foil

The easiest combo to pop (for me with pumping)without doubt the ding followed by the free ride then race.
JJ i would look for a 9.0 sail/900 wing if you can find them and a board around 85-100 Patrick sounds perfect.

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Sandman1221 said..
The thing to remember, and please let me know if I am not being accurate, is if you use a race foil with a wide foil board in light wind you are going to have to pump the sail all-out to get up every time. Now if your runs are several miles long then great, but if you have runs under a mile it may get to be more work than you were expecting. Now if you can foil gybe in those conditions, and the winds are steady, versus gusty, then you will never come down, so a energetic pump up the first time is no big deal!

High aspect wings have by definition less lift, and so require more work to get up on, but once up they have so much less drag that they stay up easier in light wind and glide longer in the lulls, that is my understanding, but I have never used one, for the above reasons, so far!

My pumping skills and fitness aren't great to pump like crazy for prolonged periods. Once on the foil I rarely come off apart from the odd touch down or rare crash. I never tack once on the foil. Even if I raced up wind down wind, which I don't, I would gybe rather than tack because I would probably be to buggered to finish a race. Gybing takes very little effort
At close to 100kg I can, with a bit of effort, take off with an 8m in 10kn and keep going in 8kn. 10 to 14 is the fun zone for me with that size gear on the 900 wing, cruising with enough speed to make it enjoyable is my thing these days and little chance of breaking my gear or myself.

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Swindy said..Using the 115 and 105 fuse. That speed was on the 115 fuse in 18kn, probably should have had the 700 front and 105 on but the session started at about 12 kn.

Ok thanks, good to know, I've got a spare 860mm Phantasm fuse - I'll build a 200mm extension.

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snides8 said..
8 to 12 knots imo is a large gap in wind strength (50% increase in wind strength if my maths is correct)
for me at 8kn constant i would rig a 10m sail and 1 meter wing (millennium).
At 12kn i would go to a 9m and 900 foil for racing but could cruise around on a 8.0 and 900 foil easily.
The 10.0 and 1000 combo would go down to 6kn with a lot of pumping.
Interestingly at around 8-10knots i could pop on all of the following set ups.
Race foil - 10.0/1000foil
Free ride foil - 5.6 blade/1400 naish foil
Wingding - 6.0ding/1400 naish foil

The easiest combo to pop (for me with pumping)without doubt the ding followed by the free ride then race.
JJ i would look for a 9.0 sail/900 wing if you can find them and a board around 85-100 Patrick sounds perfect.

Cheers Steve - as you suggest, I'll go 920cm2 foil, 7.8 sail and big board to get on the plane easily.
It's only for flat 8-12 (maybe to 15) knot days on the river/ocean.
Over 15knots on the ocean there's usually windswells worth chasing so I'll swap to my Slingshot freeride kit.

You get up early on your freeride kit - I need a 12 knot gust with a 5.9

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Paducah said..
Solid advice from these two. Just to add my flavor.
I used to sail with a GA Cosmic 7.7 and while it's replacement, 2 cam Airride was a better option, I got a lot of fun and grins from it. A higher aspect, shorter boom foil sail will do better upwind angles and be a bit more stable but I don't know enough about the 2xc to say if it will be shy of something foil specific (FG ,NP V-8 Flight, Phantom Iris X, F-Pace etc). I see that for '22, Simmer seems to have replaced it with the SMax which is designed with foiling in mind, too.

Unless you are really chasing upwind speed and efficiency, I'd be wary something like the HGO 8 even though it's now my daily driver in 7-15. Dealing with the cams and big luff sleeve definitely makes it an acquired taste. It is a marvelous sail but you'll definitely notice it. The good news with all the better sails in this range is that it's super easy to go from there down to a 5.5 with no problems.

The Simmer/Zeeko range will provide you with lots of options. As a user of Starboard foils from 1000 on down, again, unless you are racing, no need to spend the extra money plus at your size (as opposed to mine), getting off the water is going to be key to having fun so I'd be wary of suggesting a wing below 900. Until this experiment proves itself, by the time you are really using something like a 725/800 to its best advantage, you may be wanting to be on your small gear instead.

Sailing small gear is amazing, of course, but ripping along, pushing hard without a white cap in sight is its own special fun. Very excited for you.

Super helpful thanks William

It will be good to see you on the river in 8-12 cruising around JJ. :)

Once it is 12 knots, uniform whitecaps, I go to a F770 cm2 wing. Thinking the 920 cm2 may take a lot of pumping in 8-10, and have too much lift in 10-12, but hey let us know how it goes.

I contacted Bruno Andre at AFS/Foil&Co. about their 900 slalom wing versus their F1080 wing, he said that in the lightest winds the F1080 can fly very easy (I agree ), but the 900 is faster and much better upwind and foilers in competitions never use anything bigger than the 900, and if I was under 85 kg I would really enjoy the 900 better based on my 3+ yrs of foiling experience. So will keep thinking about it, but at some point will probably give it a try, AFS does have a 14 day try it out and return policy if you are not happy with it, and a 3-yr warranty, think that is the longest in the industry.