I have noticed that when I sail upwind without the harness my VMG goes way up. I am trying to understand what is different so I can get faster hooked in. Any Ideas?
I still struggle to keep consistent windward heel. What things promote windward heel? I have tried moving my feet out board but as my sail sizes have dropped (gratefully) I find my feet moving inboard (strapless). It's easy to overdo it with a 76 cm wide board and 4.5 meter sail and most of the time my back foot is across centerline when I am going good upwind.
I think what I really am trying to figure out is how do you bear off without reducing windward heel? I find with the close mast to foil distance the kit has weather helm and foot steering to counter it works but it reduces weather heel. Any thoughts on how to balance this?
You gotta get up to get down!

By WWF do you mean Wave Wind Foiling or something else?

The slower foils I've ridden, like Slingshot 76 and 99, do not like to heel upwind the same way a high aspect race foil does. I try to get in an elongated, straight ankle-knees-hips-shoulders position with a high boom and (sometimes) shortened harness to get upwind, but with a small sail there's not as much power. Much different story on a 9.0 and 900cm2 race wing, which does like to heel and takes a lot of extra back foot pressure.

Like you, I try to move both feet outboard (only have inboard straps on the front) on the 71cm wide foilx, but too much rail pressure like I would have on race kit and it gets unstable. My angles and presumably VMG (I haven't measured this) are not as high as on IQFoil gear, but I'm also probably missing some technique to push it a little harder.

Thanks Aero,
Yes Windsurf wave foiling.
Specifically Moses 1100 front wing, 4.5 meter sail, modified slingshot sled shred in 10-18 knots with a few feet of swell. I am specifically after technique info, I know I could choose different kit and see big gains but that gear won't surf like I want.
There have been moments with a tall straight body like you describe that have felt right.
Anyone know of an Iphone app that has audible VMG comments, preferably spoken by a beautiful woman with a sexy accent!

utc,
Did you determine the VMGs via a GPS read?

fwiw, in my experience, the getting the back foot out is about being able to stay sheeted in as you would need going upwind.

For me, seems that your issue isn't so much with heel, etc but what the difference is between sailing with and without a harness. I do know that sailing upwind powered up is a good way to reveal if one has their harness lines/hands too forward. I'm wondering if you pushed the lines back a touch on the boom (try a couple of cm), you could stay sheeted in better going upwind? Sam Ross in his video really puts the hands back to keep the front of the sail open as well.

To get heel, you need both speed and pressure under the front foot. Otherwise, pulling the board over just makes it want to round up and touch down.

Obligatory berowne (yes, I know it's about racing but, imho, I've used the same principles on a 54. and 4.7)
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-?page=1

Obligatory Sam Ross


Going upwind on a 5.4 and 75cm board

For me on that style of gear I carve the board and set a heel angle without much pressure on the sail. Then once I'm on course I progressively sheet in to match the relative wind.
Trying to sheet in aggressively before I'm on course will try to roll the board to leeward.
I run my harness lines long, biased to the rear and with a low boom. My harness doesn't take much weight off my feet just balance the power and I basically don't use my back hand.

Not sure, but the only thing I can add is that when I am hooked in I am still capable of sheeting out and possibly keep slightly less than max power in my sail for fear of breaching/catapult. Where as when unhooked I can avoid catapult much easier so might feel more comfortable keeping max power on. Although this fear of catapult is more with reaching not pointing

As foiling sail is small I can hold max power without harness at least for a few minutes. Not something I can do on fin.

Thanks Paducah,
At the moment I can only guess at my vmg. Or line up against a known winger or kite foiliers.

When you said " To get heel, you need both speed and pressure under the front foot. Otherwise, pulling the board over just makes it want to round up and touch down."

That is the core concept I am trying to wrap my head around and I think I am starting to see the light.

If we heel the foil over to windward the board will turn to windward, right? So if we are heeled over and going straight it has to be the sail force that counters the turn, right?

I think what is going on is the wing is huge and makes a lot of force when heeled and the sail is tiny so it is easily overpowered by the foil. Also the sail is really far aft creating windward helm so I constantly need to foot steer away from the wind.

That may be WHY WWF gear sails with less heel.

Hence my question, are there any techniques or setups details that increase a small sails side force? Or gives the small sail side force more leverage over the foil? I do focus on getting going fast before I try and sail upwind and that makes a big difference.

I have watched that video and read Berowne's post many times, there is always something to learn from the other disciplines. I think are some things that apply and some that don't, the gear is really different.

Thanks Grantmac, I also roll the board to windward with the sail eased. I think this is a basic necessity of any windfoil. I will try adjusting my lines and boom as you suggest. Like you I use very little back hand because I will spin out if there is not enough heel.

thedoor, I am set up to be able to ease, thanks! I am getting to the point that I don't need the harness upwind but I want to use it to extend my TOW.

There is something in my harness technique that is creating a less heeled over and slower vmg, all your comments will help me sort it out. I am doing pretty good but I want to be as good as can be so I can spend more time going downwind!

You gotta get up to get down!

Thanks Gents for your input!

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utcminusfour said..


I think what is going on is the wing is huge and makes a lot of force when heeled and the sail is tiny so it is easily overpowered by the foil. Also the sail is really far aft creating windward helm so I constantly need to foot steer away from the wind.

That may be WHY WWF gear sails with less heel.

That may be it...

Not as much lateral pressure as a big rig, so less heel angle with steady direction is possible. It's also why with a 9.0 on a race foil you can't ride the board flat because the mast acts as a fin and it spins out.

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Paducah said..
utc,
Did you determine the VMGs via a GPS read?

fwiw, in my experience, the getting the back foot out is about being able to stay sheeted in as you would need going upwind.

For me, seems that your issue isn't so much with heel, etc but what the difference is between sailing with and without a harness. I do know that sailing upwind powered up is a good way to reveal if one has their harness lines/hands too forward. I'm wondering if you pushed the lines back a touch on the boom (try a couple of cm), you could stay sheeted in better going upwind? Sam Ross in his video really puts the hands back to keep the front of the sail open as well.

To get heel, you need both speed and pressure under the front foot. Otherwise, pulling the board over just makes it want to round up and touch down.

Obligatory berowne (yes, I know it's about racing but, imho, I've used the same principles on a 54. and 4.7)
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-Racing-Upwind-technique-top-tips-please-?page=1

Obligatory Sam Ross

Going upwind on a 5.4 and 75cm board

Paducah I like that my posts have now become obligatory reading!!!

berowne,your putting in the work and documenting it (in text and video) for everyone else to learn from. THANK YOU!

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utcminusfour said..
Thanks Paducah,
At the moment I can only guess at my vmg. Or line up against a known winger or kite foiliers.

When you said " To get heel, you need both speed and pressure under the front foot. Otherwise, pulling the board over just makes it want to round up and touch down."

That is the core concept I am trying to wrap my head around and I think I am starting to see the light.

A blurb from NG helped me kind of understand things. I put it in a post a while ago: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Back-foot-pressure-and--counter-heel-

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berowne said..
Paducah I like that my posts have now become obligatory reading!!!

berowne, you've done a great job of documenting your journey and lots of quality stuff in those posts. I've certainly learned a lot and happy to point others in your direction.

Thanks Paducah,
Of course I read that when you posted it. It is fascinating and it got me thinking, hence this thread.
I have not messed with stab angle at all in a year or two, since I got the Sled. Switching to a really small foil to sail distance was change enough at first. I think I have the bandwidth to play with this again. I am also planning on tweaking the mast rake by potting the adaptor with epoxy. At the moment the rake angle is close to zero and I want to try 1.5. Seeing how everything affects everything I won't be surprised if that helps with VMG too.

utcminusfour, would you be so kind to measure the distance between the front edge of the mast and the front tip of the 1100 wing?
I am having some issues with this wing on a Phantasm fuse and I am curious what the difference is besides the stabs. I would really appreciate this.

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utcminusfour said..
Thanks Paducah,
Of course I read that when you posted it. It is fascinating and it got me thinking, hence this thread.

Glad you saw it first time around. Wasn't sure so I reposted it. Apologies if I sounded pedantic.

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sl55 said..
utcminusfour, would you be so kind to measure the distance between the front edge of the mast and the front tip of the 1100 wing?
I am having some issues with this wing on a Phantasm fuse and I am curious what the difference is besides the stabs. I would really appreciate this.

11" from the mast to the front of the 1100 wing.

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utcminusfour said..

sl55 said..
utcminusfour, would you be so kind to measure the distance between the front edge of the mast and the front tip of the 1100 wing?
I am having some issues with this wing on a Phantasm fuse and I am curious what the difference is besides the stabs. I would really appreciate this.

11" from the mast to the front of the 1100 wing.

Interesting. I measured 14.5" (34.5cm) with 1100 on a Phantasm fuse on a skinny 92 cm mast. On a 103cm wider mast that would be 1 cm less.