I have the Sabfoil / Moses 950 and 790. Would Sabfoil 1250 (or 1100) be a significant improvement to get going in the lightest winds, or would the 950 with ok pumping skills be better with less drag?

Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

A good friend has been through all the SAB wings for light wind windfoiling, including the 1250.
The new WL1350/1550 are far more efficient. Take slightly more technique to get going but keep going through much deeper lulls due to the lower drag.

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windfred said..
Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

Great! Was this on your JP Hydrofoil 135? (I have been searching and found a post where you mentioned the 1100 and the JP. I am using the same JP). I am 75kg but would be surprised if that decreases the relevance of the 1250.

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Grantmac said..
A good friend has been through all the SAB wings for light wind windfoiling, including the 1250.
The new WL1350/1550 are far more efficient. Take slightly more technique to get going but keep going through much deeper lulls due to the lower drag.

Sounds interesting. Is "slightly more technique" about pumping vs passively lifted, or some other techniques? I thought that the 1350 & 1550 are optimized for pumping - without wing, and definitely without sail - so, I would be a little hesitant regarding its robustness for windsurf foiling. Taking it out on my JP Hydrofoil 135 and 6.5 or 7.5 sail would not be too much? Maybe it would be better on a smaller board with better pumping abilities.

I have had 950, sold it after a season and got 940 and 945 and 999. Then i got a cheap 1100 and was really surprised how good it is for windfoiling. We have very gusty winds and it runs through lulls like on rails. It has a huge wind range and is so easy to jibe. Also for starting winging it's perfect.
Tried the 1350 but it feels extremely wobbly and has crazy lift. Only use it for pumping.
I am 73kg

Which stab is best for the 1250?

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PatK said..
I have had 950, sold it after a season and got 940 and 945 and 999. Then i got a cheap 1100 and was really surprised how good it is for windfoiling. We have very gusty winds and it runs through lulls like on rails. It has a huge wind range and is so easy to jibe. Also for starting winging it's perfect.
Tried the 1350 but it feels extremely wobbly and has crazy lift. Only use it for pumping.
I am 73kg

Sounds like you went for more specialized wings, rather than one "do-it-all". How do you find these four? Sounds like you would recommend the 1100 (or1250) as light wind, combined with 940/945 for more wind? With 999 fore more low wind freestyle inspired sailing. Or.?

Changing the frontwing changes the style you are riding. 940 is my favorite in flat water. 945 and 999 are good in chop or waves. 1100 i take if nothing else gets going. Don't know how the 1250 would be. Would try it if i had the chance.

I have a lot of time on the 1100 and the 999.

The 1100 is still the earliest lift off I have ever experienced and I had a lot of fun riding it for a few years. It responds well to early foot pumping and it is not as slow as you would think. For all it's low end lift it handles well when pushed hard and it resists breaching. It turns pretty good as well. It is super fun in waves, just locks in like a train and stays with the wave. It also has a good grip from a leeway perspective, it resists spin out. The lift is pretty far aft so I could ride it way forward in the tracks getting it closer to the sail. On the flip side it was a nightmare in chaotic chop because it reacts to every little bump. If the tips breach I would always crash and because of the big span it's easy to breach the tips in a turn. I could really feel the mast bending around and I had a hard time keeping it attached to the fuse. I broke or bent lots of screws. One time I broke all three fasteners and the wing came leaping out of the water like the Kraken! I got fancy bolts and that helped but then I noticed cracks in the front wing bolt holes so now it's retired.

The 999 does not lift as early as the 1100. The slow speed granny gear is just not there. It's not a huge difference though. It is a little faster and turns better. I can recover from breaching the tips. It's lift is further forward so I ride it further back in the tracks. It doesn't have the resistance to breaching and I have exploded on waves learning that. I have not bent the bolts and the mast doesn't bend as much. It has less resistance to side load so it's easier to spin out. It's in the Balz Muller line so it's cooler!

I wish I had more time and money, I would go explore what the pump wings and Kalama style boards could do! For now I am greateful for what I have, windfoiling is AMAZING!

UTC, did you break M6 or M8 screws with the 1100? I remember have seeing a picture where you came in with this wing in your harness

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snowsurf said..
Which stab is best for the 1250?

I haven't windfoiled the 1250 or the 1350 for that matter, but dock starting I liked the 430 stab on the 1250.

the 999 is such a great light air freeride front wing though, my suspicion is that you might get slightly better low end out of the 1250 but I suspect it become unmageable when the wind picks up and is way less maneuverable. Mabye if you were over 85kg you might need something bigger than the 999 (eg 1100), but I think I can get going on 999 and 4.7 in light air. The only thing that might beat 999/4.7 is someone on IQ foil and 9m.

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PatK said..
UTC, did you break M6 or M8 screws with the 1100? I remember have seeing a picture where you came in with this wing in your harness

Broke em all mate. I was one of the first to bore out for M8. That helped keep the bolts from breaking but they still bent and then the load found the next weakest spot so the wing cracked at the bolt holes. That wing's performance is so good I just lived with it. The fact that SAB keeps increasing span but have not changed the wing attachment is one reason why I have not upgraded. The attachment needs more width and offset screws to lower the stress.

The 999 has less span and less area so it has not been as much of a problem. I have only bent one bolt in 6 months of riding.

Here a short video of the 1100 and 3.7 in about 8 knot lulls with short 12-14 knot gusts. The two launches on port tack were using the waves, that wing just grabs any little bump and goes.

Thanks for the experiences and hints, Patk, thedoor & utcminusfour!

Utcminusfour, when you broke/bent the screws & hole, was that in waves, chop or flat water? Any maneuvers that were typically loading the wing with "sideways pitching"? For me, a 1250 would only be used when the water is pretty flat.

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snowsurf said..

windfred said..
Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

Great! Was this on your JP Hydrofoil 135? (I have been searching and found a post where you mentioned the 1100 and the JP. I am using the same JP). I am 75kg but would be surprised if that decreases the relevance of the 1250.

Yes on my JP Hydrofoil 135.
As far as speed. For my skill level and assuming my GPS was right every time.
The 790 was slightly faster than the 1100.
But the 1100 is a few knots faster than the 1250.
Maneuverability wise The 1100 and 1250 feel similar.

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snowsurf said..
Which stab is best for the 1250?

I'm using the 450

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snowsurf said..
Thanks for the experiences and hints, Patk, thedoor & utcminusfour!

Utcminusfour, when you broke/bent the screws & hole, was that in waves, chop or flat water? Any maneuvers that were typically loading the wing with "sideways pitching"? For me, a 1250 would only be used when the water is pretty flat.

When the wing got loose I was on a pretty wide board (85 cm) sailing upwind in flat water. This was before SAB switched to M8 screws so I was on M6.
I have not broken many M8's and when I have it's been in the ocean with waves so sea state is a factor. I have managed to bend M8's in flat water so I figure it's carving hard or upwind sailing that's doing it there. Logically it's my weight (100 kg) that's the biggest factor. I am not jumping and my main reason for riding such a large wing is to reduce sail size so the sail loads are unlikely to be the cause. I am however hard on my gear in general and ride it like I stole it.
I tried screws of different materials and sources trying to solve the problem, the ones I sourced from SAB have held up the best.
You're lighter and if you are taking it easy, only sailing in marginal winds with flat water I think you will be fine. I would highly recommend the M8 screws if you are not using them yet. Given that you are lighter than me I would say the 1100 should be enough with a lower risk of issues than the 1250.

Select to expand quote

utcminusfour said..When the wing got loose I was on a pretty wide board (85 cm) sailing upwind in flat water. This was before SAB switched to M8 screws so I was on M6.

I have not broken many M8's and when I have it's been in the ocean with waves so sea state is a factor. I have managed to bend M8's in flat water so I figure it's carving hard or upwind sailing that's doing it there. Logically it's my weight (100 kg) that's the biggest factor. I am not jumping and my main reason for riding such a large wing is to reduce sail size so the sail loads are unlikely to be the cause. I am however hard on my gear in general and ride it like I stole it.
I tried screws of different materials and sources trying to solve the problem, the ones I sourced from SAB have held up the best.
You're lighter and if you are taking it easy, only sailing in marginal winds with flat water I think you will be fine. I would highly recommend the M8 screws if you are not using them yet. Given that you are lighter than me I would say the 1100 should be enough with a lower risk of issues than the 1250.

Me too - drilled out all M6 to M8 on my Hoverglide, Phantasm and Axis fuses. The Simmer came with M8.
Use A4 316 stainless M8.

BTW why don't you use a bigger sail in your light wind video?

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windfred said..

snowsurf said..

windfred said..
Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

Great! Was this on your JP Hydrofoil 135? (I have been searching and found a post where you mentioned the 1100 and the JP. I am using the same JP). I am 75kg but would be surprised if that decreases the relevance of the 1250.

Yes on my JP Hydrofoil 135.
As far as speed. For my skill level and assuming my GPS was right every time.
The 790 was slightly faster than the 1100.
But the 1100 is a few knots faster than the 1250.
Maneuverability wise The 1100 and 1250 feel similar.

Thanks for the comparison of the foils. Maybe I should consider the 1100 as a good balance between going early and a little faster than the 1250. Which mast are you using?

The suggestions for 999 has made me think a bit, but it's not stored nearby, and the 1100&1250 are available at a discount now (maybe to get space for the 999. :-) ).

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utcminusfour said..

snowsurf said..
Thanks for the experiences and hints, Patk, thedoor & utcminusfour!

Utcminusfour, when you broke/bent the screws & hole, was that in waves, chop or flat water? Any maneuvers that were typically loading the wing with "sideways pitching"? For me, a 1250 would only be used when the water is pretty flat.

When the wing got loose I was on a pretty wide board (85 cm) sailing upwind in flat water. This was before SAB switched to M8 screws so I was on M6.
I have not broken many M8's and when I have it's been in the ocean with waves so sea state is a factor. I have managed to bend M8's in flat water so I figure it's carving hard or upwind sailing that's doing it there. Logically it's my weight (100 kg) that's the biggest factor. I am not jumping and my main reason for riding such a large wing is to reduce sail size so the sail loads are unlikely to be the cause. I am however hard on my gear in general and ride it like I stole it.
I tried screws of different materials and sources trying to solve the problem, the ones I sourced from SAB have held up the best.
You're lighter and if you are taking it easy, only sailing in marginal winds with flat water I think you will be fine. I would highly recommend the M8 screws if you are not using them yet. Given that you are lighter than me I would say the 1100 should be enough with a lower risk of issues than the 1250.

".ride it like I stole it"

Yessss.I like that! This sport is normally a great adrenaline activity. Not sure whether my 1250 use will be that intense, but at least some activity and fun.

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snowsurf said..

windfred said..

snowsurf said..

windfred said..
Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

Great! Was this on your JP Hydrofoil 135? (I have been searching and found a post where you mentioned the 1100 and the JP. I am using the same JP). I am 75kg but would be surprised if that decreases the relevance of the 1250.

Yes on my JP Hydrofoil 135.
As far as speed. For my skill level and assuming my GPS was right every time.
The 790 was slightly faster than the 1100.
But the 1100 is a few knots faster than the 1250.
Maneuverability wise The 1100 and 1250 feel similar.

Thanks for the comparison of the foils. Maybe I should consider the 1100 as a good balance between going early and a little faster than the 1250. Which mast are you using?

The suggestions for 999 has made me think a bit, but it's not stored nearby, and the 1100&1250 are available at a discount now (maybe to get space for the 999. :-) ).

Discounts are always good and 1100 will be more like the 790 which you are familiar with

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snowsurf said..

windfred said..

snowsurf said..

windfred said..
Yes I've owned all of the above. I would sell that 790 since it's so close in area to the 950 and buy a 1250.

I was out pumping my Fanny off in 10-15 with my 950, (I'm around 90kg) I could get the 950 to fly but it would stall easily in the lulls, I switched to my 1250 and it comes up with a lot less effort and glides through the lulls like crazy. You'll trade off a couple knots of speed but it's worth it. The 1100 and 1250 both seem a little more stable than the 790 too.
hope that helps

Great! Was this on your JP Hydrofoil 135? (I have been searching and found a post where you mentioned the 1100 and the JP. I am using the same JP). I am 75kg but would be surprised if that decreases the relevance of the 1250.

Yes on my JP Hydrofoil 135.
As far as speed. For my skill level and assuming my GPS was right every time.
The 790 was slightly faster than the 1100.
But the 1100 is a few knots faster than the 1250.
Maneuverability wise The 1100 and 1250 feel similar.

Thanks for the comparison of the foils. Maybe I should consider the 1100 as a good balance between going early and a little faster than the 1250. Which mast are you using?

The suggestions for 999 has made me think a bit, but it's not stored nearby, and the 1100&1250 are available at a discount now (maybe to get space for the 999. :-) ).

I'm using the 93cm Kracken mast normally and the 63cm if I'm in shallower water.
Check with MacKites, I have got some killer deals from them in the past.

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azymuth said..

utcminusfour said..When the wing got loose I was on a pretty wide board (85 cm) sailing upwind in flat water. This was before SAB switched to M8 screws so I was on M6.

I have not broken many M8's and when I have it's been in the ocean with waves so sea state is a factor. I have managed to bend M8's in flat water so I figure it's carving hard or upwind sailing that's doing it there. Logically it's my weight (100 kg) that's the biggest factor. I am not jumping and my main reason for riding such a large wing is to reduce sail size so the sail loads are unlikely to be the cause. I am however hard on my gear in general and ride it like I stole it.
I tried screws of different materials and sources trying to solve the problem, the ones I sourced from SAB have held up the best.
You're lighter and if you are taking it easy, only sailing in marginal winds with flat water I think you will be fine. I would highly recommend the M8 screws if you are not using them yet. Given that you are lighter than me I would say the 1100 should be enough with a lower risk of issues than the 1250.

Me too - drilled out all M6 to M8 on my Hoverglide, Phantasm and Axis fuses. The Simmer came with M8.
Use A4 316 stainless M8.

BTW why don't you use a bigger sail in your light wind video?

M8 fasteners is something we can agree on JJ!
I did not set out to make a light wind video. I feel really lucky to have the little bits of footage my sweet wife gets of me. A while back this forum was chatting about light air pumping. I had a little bit of film from a session where she showed up after the wind shut off and she got me doing magic with what was left. I put that up to contribute to the discussion.
Before foiling I never had a sail even close to that small and never would have believed it could work in such light wind. I am still amazed it's possible!
For what it is worth I have been riding with more sail and less foil lately. Mostly cause the 999 and 799 needs it and I lost my 4.8 and 400 mast to forgetfulness and a rising tide, I left it on the beach The other reason is I am working hard on freestyle and my desire to launch quickly after a trick outweighs my common sense that tries to protect my forearms from the chronic tendinitis I deal with.
I really understand, appreciate and dig your preferences for power sailing and powered carving on windfoil! Your videos are an inspiration to me but I gotta say with full respect that sometimes it feels like you are determined to smother different views than yours. I think the slightly different tack I take relative to you is one that is relevant to the aging demographic in this group. It would be cool if you could give a little more space for discussion about small sails and flagged out wave riding. Sorry that my skin is not thicker.
Please don't be offended but I just had to get that off my chest. Respect Brother!

The large foil / small sail vs smaller foil / larger sail combos. It depends where you sail and the conditions you sail in.

For me, in ocean waves, the smaller foil / larger sail combo is advantageous because the larger sail is easier to water start and the smaller foil is easier to control when turning down the face of a wave.

In softer bay wind waves, the larger foil / smaller sail combo comes into its own.

Great Thread...thought I would weigh in on the changes I have made over the last year;

- M8 Tititanium Bolts Upgrade from Pro-Bolt USA, when one of my M6 became stripped
- SAB/Moses 1100 has been my go to foil with then 790 as my highwind foil
- Only small sails 5.5>>>3.0
- Upgraded to SAB 1350...faster than the 1100 and maybe planes a bit sooner
- Phantasm 926 (an ebay bargain....fits the Moses fuse)... basically a more refined 790
- Foil Drive Assist Plus w/2 blade magic hub...and just got the 3 bladed hub. This toy is the light wind game changer....google it.

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utcminusfour said..I really understand, appreciate and dig your preferences for power sailing and powered carving on windfoil! Your videos are an inspiration to me but I gotta say with full respect that sometimes it feels like you are determined to smother different views than yours. I think the slightly different tack I take relative to you is one that is relevant to the aging demographic in this group. It would be cool if you could give a little more space for discussion about small sails and flagged out wave riding. Sorry that my skin is not thicker.

Please don't be offended but I just had to get that off my chest. Respect Brother!

No offence taken, different views are interesting. I appreciate your knowledgeable and articulate posts.

At 65 I'm firmly in the aging demographic
I'm admittedly an evangelist for powered-up windfoiling because in our ocean conditions it works well, also I think it's an advantage we have over winging.
I guess our video count does tend to emphasize our way of riding but I'm always stoked to see what others are doing - encourage everyone to post content and keep our awesome sub-niche alive

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azymuth said..

utcminusfour said..I really understand, appreciate and dig your preferences for power sailing and powered carving on windfoil! Your videos are an inspiration to me but I gotta say with full respect that sometimes it feels like you are determined to smother different views than yours. I think the slightly different tack I take relative to you is one that is relevant to the aging demographic in this group. It would be cool if you could give a little more space for discussion about small sails and flagged out wave riding. Sorry that my skin is not thicker.

Please don't be offended but I just had to get that off my chest. Respect Brother!

No offence taken, different views are interesting. I appreciate your knowledgeable and articulate posts.

At 65 I'm firmly in the aging demographic
I'm admittedly an evangelist for powered-up windfoiling because in our ocean conditions it works well, also I think it's an advantage we have over winging.
I guess our video count does tend to emphasize our way of riding but I'm always stoked to see what others are doing - encourage everyone to post content and keep our awesome sub-niche alive

Sorry JJ! Not sure what my problem was yesterday. Basically I am just a cranky old kook! Your reply shows how classy you are.

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allesad said..
Great Thread...thought I would weigh in on the changes I have made over the last year;

- M8 Tititanium Bolts Upgrade from Pro-Bolt USA, when one of my M6 became stripped
- SAB/Moses 1100 has been my go to foil with then 790 as my highwind foil
- Only small sails 5.5>>>3.0
- Upgraded to SAB 1350...faster than the 1100 and maybe planes a bit sooner
- Phantasm 926 (an ebay bargain....fits the Moses fuse)... basically a more refined 790
- Foil Drive Assist Plus w/2 blade magic hub...and just got the 3 bladed hub. This toy is the light wind game changer....google it.

Allesed, I have tried those same bolts from Pro Bolt and have gone back to A4 316. The Ti bolts are brittle, they break where the stainless will bend. The only M8's I have broken are the those Ti bolts.

Thanks for sharing the info on the 1350! I have been curious about that. How's it go upwind? Is it faster to the windward mark than the 1100?

When I get my hands on a Foil Drive I will have even more trouble finding time to work!

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allesad said..
Great Thread...thought I would weigh in on the changes I have made over the last year;

- M8 Tititanium Bolts Upgrade from Pro-Bolt USA, when one of my M6 became stripped
- SAB/Moses 1100 has been my go to foil with then 790 as my highwind foil
- Only small sails 5.5>>>3.0
- Upgraded to SAB 1350...faster than the 1100 and maybe planes a bit sooner
- Phantasm 926 (an ebay bargain....fits the Moses fuse)... basically a more refined 790
- Foil Drive Assist Plus w/2 blade magic hub...and just got the 3 bladed hub. This toy is the light wind game changer....google it.

allesad, I am curious about your experiences with 1350, as it seems to be very much markedet towards pumping and not wind foiling. It seems that people in this thread have experienced it very differently - from fast and early going to challenging/unstable.. maybe at speed. What is your weight and skill level, and how do you ride it?

allesad,
I am curious like snowsurf. Thanks in advance for any info you can share.

Sorry for the delay. I checked with my friend about his impressions.
Easy to get going, very easy to keep going through lulls. No special technique.
But doesn't fit on the longer fuselages he prefers. He's a bigger rider who doesn't like pumping so uses big sails. Currently trying to make an adapter for a Starboard 115+ fuselage.

So if you don't mind the SAB fuselage length it's brilliant in light wind.