Hi guys,

So, I have this board that I've been using for winging. It's a convertible WinD and WinG board. You might have seen me mention it on another thread. Tabou Magic Carpet 110 MTE. Please look at the tail with the US tracks and tuttle box - see attached photo.Here's the thing, I want to start WinDfoiling is soon, and I'm getting an Axis foil with the long V2 windsurf black fuselage for it. However, I'm trying to decide if I can skip ordering the tuttle head adapter, and just use the tracks. If I put the plate as far back as it'll go, it'll be 3 inches forward of the tuttle position. Now, I know that if I'm not using the foot straps, this might not matter, but I plan to use the footstraps. Do you guys think I can get away with using only the tracks as far back as possible if I play with the mast foot position and the fore-aft adjustment of the footstraps? Or do you think I'm stuck having to order a tuttle head too? I've read the Axis V2 windsurf fuse puts the front wing closer to the mast, making it possible to run it a little more forward.

Probably will not work that way with the foot straps V2 fuselage puts the front wing 50 mm more forward.

Select to expand quote

KDog said..
Probably will not work that way with the foot straps V2 fuselage puts the front wing 50 mm more forward.

Really? I thought it was the other way around... where the front wing is closer to the mast, therefore bringing the mast forward with it as well.

After looking at that again it might be able to work the axis plate also has two other threaded holes just take a tiny bit larger drill bit just enough to remove the threads and use button head screws in place of the flat heads

Sorry the mast is further forward been a long hot day

Select to expand quote

KDog said..
Sorry the mast is further forward been a long hot day

Thanks KDog, and thanks for the photos. There's a good chance this might work. I mean, I was looking at the latest carbon mast. With aluminum it's an easy fix... because if it doesn't work, it's $214 USD to get the tuttle box adapter. Not too big of a worry. But with the carbon mast, it's a much bigger commitment, since it's plate only.

I think generally the trend is for the foil mast to move forwards, so I think tracks are the way to go. You will have to learn to weight the front foot obviously, but thats the only way I can ride. Worst case if you felt the tracks did not go far back enough you could shim the stabilizer.

Select to expand quote

eluviis said..
I've read the Axis V2 windsurf fuse puts the front wing closer to the mast, making it possible to run it a little more forward.

Just a few days ago I got a chance to see an Axis WS foil (880 red fuselage). Took comparative measurements and found that the front wing placement is within a cm. or so of similar style foils (F4, Moses/Sabfoil, SS, etc.).

Select to expand quote

eluviis said..
If I put the plate as far back as it'll go, it'll be 3 inches forward of the tuttle position. Now, I know that if I'm not using the foot straps, this might not matter, but I plan to use the footstraps. Do you guys think I can get away with using only the tracks as far back as possible if I play with the mast foot position and the fore-aft adjustment of the footstraps?

~8cm. forward is very noticeable.

Not familiar with your board, but it may be possible that between moving the footstraps all the way forward and shimming your tail wing to reduce power you can arrive to a satisfactory balance. Try and let us know how it goes.

The reason why the DTT is further aft on production hybrid board is to satisfy those using dedicated winD foil fuselage, that have the mast to the aft (or the front wing further forward). In the early days of winDfoil, they tried having the mast more forward (which is better regarding structural resistance). But it turned out it was not practical for what they were doing, and winDfoil evolved toward what is most common nowdays : forward projected front wing. The reason is that when winDfoiling, as for fin windsurf, there a need for side force from the mast (or the fin) to balance the force from the sail via the UJ.
Now when you're free winDfoiling, using small light wave sail, with the UJ to the aft of the track, you're reducing this side force requirement, and having the foil mast more forward as for winG (which requires no side force one the foil mast).
If you want to winDfoil large sail especially camed sails, you will definitely need the mast to be to the aft and a longer fuselage to have the front wing forward away from the foil mast.

Foiling is about finding the balance you're confortable with your riding style. So try to figure out what is relevant, how your set up work, and how you'd like it to be.

I would try out the dual track, strapless, setting the UJ to the aft and see if I can manage it (and were my feet are when I am balanced, if I am). This kind of setting is probably going to be very reactive. If required, it is easy to add straps pugs where required.

Shiming the stab might help, but be aware that reducing the angle (downforce) of the stab may lead to lack of longitudinal stability (depending on the foil and kit set up).

With a different board and foil, I prefer to use the tracks with the end of the mast plate adapter before the tuttle box. The position would be similar to putting the Axis adapter all the way back using the regular screw holes. I've also moved the front wing forward 5 cm (the front holes on the SB SC fuse). Others have reported that they use the same setup without moving the front wing forward, and in the tuttle box, which would move the front wing about 10 cm further back. It seems that both setups can be used for windfoiling, and it's more a matter of personal preference. My board is quite a bit longer (required to support my slow footwork in tacks ) but it may just be worth trying.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..
I think generally the trend is for the foil mast to move forwards, so I think tracks are the way to go. You will have to learn to weight the front foot obviously, but thats the only way I can ride. Worst case if you felt the tracks did not go far back enough you could shim the stabilizer.

Not to mention, oftentimes these boards are meant for larger sails. I would suspect that for sails 6.5 - 7.5 you'd need that foil way back. I don't think I'll be using a sail bigger than 6.0, and my plan is to use it more often on a 5.4.

Select to expand quote

WindFlyer said..

eluviis said..
I've read the Axis V2 windsurf fuse puts the front wing closer to the mast, making it possible to run it a little more forward.

Just a few days ago I got a chance to see an Axis WS foil (880 red fuselage). Took comparative measurements and found that the front wing placement is within a cm. or so of similar style foils (F4, Moses/Sabfoil, SS, etc.).

eluviis said..
If I put the plate as far back as it'll go, it'll be 3 inches forward of the tuttle position. Now, I know that if I'm not using the foot straps, this might not matter, but I plan to use the footstraps. Do you guys think I can get away with using only the tracks as far back as possible if I play with the mast foot position and the fore-aft adjustment of the footstraps?

~8cm. forward is very noticeable.

Not familiar with your board, but it may be possible that between moving the footstraps all the way forward and shimming your tail wing to reduce power you can arrive to a satisfactory balance. Try and let us know how it goes.

Right, but that red fuselage... is it the V1 or V2? Because that's the thing, supposedly the V2 is shorter at the front, requiring a slightly more forward mast placement. I'm ordering a black fuselage as I intend to have a HPS 980 and HPS 880 (Keep in mind I'm planning to alternate between WinG and WinD.)

I do see what you mean in the second comment there about the 8cm difference... which I'm aware is a lot. Currently on this board I have an Armstrong with a 60cm fuse and a large 1850 wing with the thing all the way forward in the tracks... for WinG, but without footstraps. Reason being, I'm still learning to foil, and I'm finding that due to the longer nose of this board, compared to smaller WinG boards, the center balance of the board when slogging is more forward... so in order not to have to step back too much to get on foil, this seems to work. Of course, once I add the weight of a sail, that'll all go out the window.

Select to expand quote

6u1d0 said..
The reason why the DTT is further aft on production hybrid board is to satisfy those using dedicated winD foil fuselage, that have the mast to the aft (or the front wing further forward). In the early days of winDfoil, they tried having the mast more forward (which is better regarding structural resistance). But it turned out it was not practical for what they were doing, and winDfoil evolved toward what is most common nowdays : forward projected front wing. The reason is that when winDfoiling, as for fin windsurf, there a need for side force from the mast (or the fin) to balance the force from the sail via the UJ.
Now when you're free winDfoiling, using small light wave sail, with the UJ to the aft of the track, you're reducing this side force requirement, and having the foil mast more forward as for winG (which requires no side force one the foil mast).
If you want to winDfoil large sail especially camed sails, you will definitely need the mast to be to the aft and a longer fuselage to have the front wing forward away from the foil mast.

Foiling is about finding the balance you're confortable with your riding style. So try to figure out what is relevant, how your set up work, and how you'd like it to be.

I would try out the dual track, strapless, setting the UJ to the aft and see if I can manage it (and were my feet are when I am balanced, if I am). This kind of setting is probably going to be very reactive. If required, it is easy to add straps pugs where required.

Shiming the stab might help, but be aware that reducing the angle (downforce) of the stab may lead to lack of longitudinal stability (depending on the foil and kit set up).

Thanks for this. It makes a lot of sense. I don't really plan to sail a rig larger than 6.0. At least that's the plan. I ordered a 5.4 specifically for this, and I d have a 6.0.

The first couple of session on this board will be with no footstraps anyway, so the mast placement at the back of the tracks but more forward than the tuttle box should be fine. Eventually I'll find out if I need to move that when I hook in, look down, and see if I can emulate my foot placement over where the straps would be.

6u1d0 is correct in saying It's all about balance. The reason I posted that pic. Is because I have the V1 black fuse and in order to not have to much front foot pressure I needed a couple of cm for better balance. On your board I would try the front straps all the way forward outboard setup, foil all the way back in tracks, sail mast track toward the back and see what happens make adjustments from their.

Select to expand quote

KDog said..
6u1d0 is correct in saying It's all about balance. The reason I posted that pic. Is because I have the V1 black fuse and in order to not have to much front foot pressure I needed a couple of cm for better balance. On your board I would try the front straps all the way forward outboard setup, foil all the way back in tracks, sail mast track toward the back and see what happens make adjustments from their.

Thanks KDog. Absolutely. I'm about to finalize my order. Thanks again. I think I'm going to go with the new Power Carbon mast, but not the High Modulus one. It should be stiffer than the alloy one, but a little less expensive than the High Modulus one. My reasoning is that if I skip having to buy the 19mm doodad, the tuttle head and the cover for it (since the new mast comes with it), I can just put that money towards the carbon mast. Yeah, it's still more expensive by quite a bit, but it does help reduce that price.

Select to expand quote

eluviis said..

KDog said..
6u1d0 is correct in saying It's all about balance. The reason I posted that pic. Is because I have the V1 black fuse and in order to not have to much front foot pressure I needed a couple of cm for better balance. On your board I would try the front straps all the way forward outboard setup, foil all the way back in tracks, sail mast track toward the back and see what happens make adjustments from their.

Thanks KDog. Absolutely. I'm about to finalize my order. Thanks again. I think I'm going to go with the new Power Carbon mast, but not the High Modulus one. It should be stiffer than the alloy one, but a little less expensive than the High Modulus one. My reasoning is that if I skip having to buy the 19mm doodad, the tuttle head and the cover for it (since the new mast comes with it), I can just put that money towards the carbon mast. Yeah, it's still more expensive by quite a bit, but it does help reduce that price.

Not sure if you have gone through with your order or not but I would lean towards the high modulus mast. Its the one thing that we tend not to damage or change. Seems hard to justify $1500 just on a mast though

I don't understand why axis offer two different carbon mast just confusing people. First the 19mm aluminum is quit a stiff mast my only complaint is at higher speeds with smaller wings like HPS 830 & 700 it sometimes is prone to ventilation not often enough to be a big deal.Yes high modulus is the bomb can't say enough how much it makes a difference on my Phantasm with the 103 W. Also resale going to be a lot easier with high modulus.

Select to expand quote

KDog said..
I don't understand why axis offer two different carbon mast just confusing people. First the 19mm aluminum is quit a stiff mast my only complaint is at higher speeds with smaller wings like HPS 830 & 700 it sometimes is prone to ventilation not often enough to be a big deal.Yes high modulus is the bomb can't say enough how much it makes a difference on my Phantasm with the 103 W. Also resale going to be a lot easier with high modulus.

Select to expand quote

thedoor said..

eluviis said..

KDog said..
6u1d0 is correct in saying It's all about balance. The reason I posted that pic. Is because I have the V1 black fuse and in order to not have to much front foot pressure I needed a couple of cm for better balance. On your board I would try the front straps all the way forward outboard setup, foil all the way back in tracks, sail mast track toward the back and see what happens make adjustments from their.

Thanks KDog. Absolutely. I'm about to finalize my order. Thanks again. I think I'm going to go with the new Power Carbon mast, but not the High Modulus one. It should be stiffer than the alloy one, but a little less expensive than the High Modulus one. My reasoning is that if I skip having to buy the 19mm doodad, the tuttle head and the cover for it (since the new mast comes with it), I can just put that money towards the carbon mast. Yeah, it's still more expensive by quite a bit, but it does help reduce that price.

Not sure if you have gone through with your order or not but I would lean towards the high modulus mast. Its the one thing that we tend not to damage or change. Seems hard to justify $1500 just on a mast though

I haven't finalized the order. I could go high modulus. I mean, at this point, right??!! What's another $300? lol

I know it's confusing, but I think I see why they offer two. At nearly $1500, that HM is now the most expensive mast on the market. Offering one below it in spec, while confusing, makes sense to help with the price points. I could suspect the old carbon masts will be replaced with these. That means there's a huge jump from $150 or so for an alloy mast to $1500. There HAS to be something in between. I mean, my initial thought was "It's stiffer than the aluminum one, and less expensive than the high modulus. Might be a good compromise.

Well designed aluminum masts can often be as stiff as a well designed carbon mast. (eg the Fanatic Flow 90cm aluminum and carbon masts). The aluminum mast is just heavier.

Is the Axis aluminum mast as stiff as the HM carbon mast?

Select to expand quote

John340 said..
Well designed aluminum masts can often be as stiff as a well designed carbon mast. (eg the Fanatic Flow 90cm aluminum and carbon masts). The aluminum mast is just heavier.

Is the Axis aluminum mast as stiff as the HM carbon mast?

From all the research I've been doing, the new Power Carbon masts are NOT lighter than the aluminum version. However, both are stiffer than the aluminum. The High Modulus just happens to be more so.

I'm sure aluminum is fine. However, in biking, windsurfing, kite, etc, I just prefer the "feel" of carbon... even with flex. The properties of how carbon and aluminum flex just feel different. Mind you, take what I'm saying with a tiny, tiny grain of salt... I'm new to foiling and could very well be wrong. I'm just making an educated guess and going with what I think will be best.

Select to expand quote

eluviis said..
From all the research I've been doing, the new Power Carbon masts are NOT lighter than the aluminum version. However, both are stiffer than the aluminum. The High Modulus just happens to be more so.

I'm sure aluminum is fine. However, in biking, windsurfing, kite, etc, I just prefer the "feel" of carbon... even with flex. The properties of how carbon and aluminum flex just feel different. Mind you, take what I'm saying with a tiny, tiny grain of salt... I'm new to foiling and could very well be wrong. I'm just making an educated guess and going with what I think will be best.

I got a carbon 85 mast for my SB foil setup a while ago, and was quite disappointed to find out that it was the same weight as the aluminum 85 that I have. From my wife's Armstrong (wing) foil gear that's so incredibly light, I had expected the mast to be lighter. But the carbon mast has a very different profile, shorter and thicker at the bottom. On the water, the difference is very noticeable. In chop, the wider alu mast seems to react more to "sideways hits" from waves, making the ride a bit less steady. A couple of sessions ago, I went back to the alu mast (after using the carbon all the time), and noticed that a few times, it had sudden instabilities at higher speeds that the carbon mast never had. Quite possible that this was ventilation.

I agree that stiffness may not be the entire story. After all, large carbon fins flex quite a lot, but are typically superior to G10 fins. Someone else had posted some simple test data here that some carbon masts are more flexible than some aluminum masts, but I have not seen any statements that aluminum masts would be superior to carbon on the water - only the other way round. Of course, there's the danger of confirmation bias after just spending close to $1K or 2K for a piece of equipment (which does not apply much in my case, since I got the carbon mast used as part of a package that I'd be able to re-sell at the price I bought it for).

Select to expand quote

boardsurfr said..

eluviis said..
From all the research I've been doing, the new Power Carbon masts are NOT lighter than the aluminum version. However, both are stiffer than the aluminum. The High Modulus just happens to be more so.

I'm sure aluminum is fine. However, in biking, windsurfing, kite, etc, I just prefer the "feel" of carbon... even with flex. The properties of how carbon and aluminum flex just feel different. Mind you, take what I'm saying with a tiny, tiny grain of salt... I'm new to foiling and could very well be wrong. I'm just making an educated guess and going with what I think will be best.

I got a carbon 85 mast for my SB foil setup a while ago, and was quite disappointed to find out that it was the same weight as the aluminum 85 that I have. From my wife's Armstrong (wing) foil gear that's so incredibly light, I had expected the mast to be lighter. But the carbon mast has a very different profile, shorter and thicker at the bottom. On the water, the difference is very noticeable. In chop, the wider alu mast seems to react more to "sideways hits" from waves, making the ride a bit less steady. A couple of sessions ago, I went back to the alu mast (after using the carbon all the time), and noticed that a few times, it had sudden instabilities at higher speeds that the carbon mast never had. Quite possible that this was ventilation.

I agree that stiffness may not be the entire story. After all, large carbon fins flex quite a lot, but are typically superior to G10 fins. Someone else had posted some simple test data here that some carbon masts are more flexible than some aluminum masts, but I have not seen any statements that aluminum masts would be superior to carbon on the water - only the other way round. Of course, there's the danger of confirmation bias after just spending close to $1K or 2K for a piece of equipment (which does not apply much in my case, since I got the carbon mast used as part of a package that I'd be able to re-sell at the price I bought it for).

The other thing I don't see anybody talking about is how long aluminum stays stiff. Aluminum tends to soften the more it flexes over time. Mind you, it might not be the case for these masts, since the flex amount might be minimal. This would be a cool stress test though. Putting a mast on a machine that'll flex is like if it were on the water and add age... say, perhaps, a year's worth of riding, and then measure the flex to get before and after numbers.But either way. A $1000 jump in price is total diminished returns. So it just depends on your current position and whether or not you're OK with it, to spend that money. You'll get the benefits for sure, but with a price that's not equal to the improvement. But that's the case with ANYTHING really. Guitars (in my case), bikes, masts for windsurfing, whatever.

Axis aluminum masts are among the stiffest and their carbon masts have historically not been as stiff but still stiffer than Armstrong.

Axis aluminum mast are very reasonable in price and most people will be happy with the performance remember with the bigger HA foils your not going to be breaking and speed records.The benefits of carbon on the big HA wings means you won't feel the wings flex as much like when you go behind somebody's foil wake or say a good size boat wake. By big For example axis HPS 980 that's 38.6 in. for none metric speaking folk.

Select to expand quote

KDog said..
Axis aluminum mast are very reasonable in price and most people will be happy with the performance remember with the bigger HA foils your not going to be breaking and speed records.The benefits of carbon on the big HA wings means you won't feel the wings flex as much like when you go behind somebody's foil wake or say a good size boat wake. By big For example axis HPS 980 that's 38.6 in. for none metric speaking folk.

That's what I have in the order... an HPS 980 and a HPS 880. Eventually I'd like to try the ART999 or 1099, but I need more time. Got out today again (Wing) and doing heaps better. Stating to attempt foiling jibes.. Not quite there yet, but almost. Also, finally a lot more comfortable on a broad reach on either tack, and also luffing the wing and pumping the foiling to stay up (for a bit at least). Can't wait to get out again!

I received my Axis kit. This stuff looks like amazing quality. Now, it's just a matter of kicking this flu that's beat me up all week and hope for wind next week.

Hey eluviis, did the Axis fuselage have the V2 marking?

Select to expand quote

segler said..
Hey eluviis, did the Axis fuselage have the V2 marking?

Hey... sorry, I just saw this. Yes. V2. It came from the US California warehouse.