Hi, been very new to foiling I have purchased a NP Glide foil and a Slingshot Wizard 2018 model, could someone tell me what I need to connect the foil to board, the board has around 12mm holes with the foil I guess M6 thread, is there an inner sleeve to go in the 12mm holes to take the M6 thread or do use just use an oblong washer to go over the 12mm hole in the slot? The foil is quite sloppy in the box which I guess some shims will fix this. TIA

First, the foil should not be sloppy in the box. You MUST solve that problem first. Worry about the screws later.

If it is sloppy, then it is not fully seated. Rock it back and forth until it is fully seated. Use McLube Sailkote if necessary to lube it.

Still after all this, if it is not fully seated, then the box is not deep enough. It means the tuttle fitting is "topping out" inside the box. If you foil it this way, it will break the box or break the screws. In this case, you have to get a shallower regular tuttle top for the foil, or cut down the too-tall deep tuttle top fitting on the foil. You can measure the depth of the box and compare it to the depth of the fitting. Make sure the box is deeper than the fitting. THIS IS CRITICAL. You want the fitting to fully seat both front and back round tapers. If there is movement, disaster will ensue.

DO NOT SHIM ANYWHERE INSIDE THE FINBOX. Shims create point loads, another recipe for disaster.

Slingshot is famous for using shallow tuttle finboxes on their boards. This is fine if you use Slingshot foil fittings, too, but can be a problem with other brands that have deeper tuttle fittings.

It is possible that the box is cracked, but probably not. Inspect closely.

Hate to say this, but this kind of thing happens too easily when you mismatch brands. If you had gotten a SS foil, it would fit tightly without any drama. That said, a deep tuttle is a deep tuttle is a deep tuttle, standard shape. (Really?) Well, almost, since board manufacturers have this habit of coming out with variations in box depths and roof slopes. Shame on them.

Only after you have done all this do you address the screws. The actual hole diameter for the screw is no biggie, but the chimneys are a bad design. You can washer the screw heads down inside the chimneys, but a better solution is to spread the load onto the top skin of the board. Make a big aluminum sheet rectangular washer that covers both chimneyed holes to spread the screw load to the top of the skin rather than the little surface inside the hole.

Once again my soapbox: do not shim inside the finbox. People do and say it works fine. That means they have Superman finboxes that don't break under point loads. Don't rely on that. Fully seat the fitting and foil it without worry.

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segler said..

Slingshot is famous for using shallow tuttle finboxes on their boards. This is fine if you use Slingshot foil fittings, too, but can be a problem with other brands that have deeper tuttle fittings.

Yeah, my suspicion. Weren't these (2018s, iirc) mid-tuttle box instead of deep?

Your foil should fit in tight. If it's hitting the top with a bunch of room in front and behind the tuttle head, You may have to do some adapting (Powerplate) or swap boards with someone. Generally, deep tuttle boxes are deep tuttle boxes and cross-compatible but this is the exception that turns up, iirc. Again, iirc, the 2019 boards were deep tuttle.

Pretty sure that it uses standard M6 in the threaded holes. Your SS board is drilled out for M10s but it shouldn't matter if you use a couple of washers.

If any of this is wrong, happy for someone to provide correct info.

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Paducah said..

segler said..

Slingshot is famous for using shallow tuttle finboxes on their boards. This is fine if you use Slingshot foil fittings, too, but can be a problem with other brands that have deeper tuttle fittings.

Yeah, my suspicion. Weren't these (2018s, iirc) mid-tuttle box instead of deep?

Yes I believe so

Paducah has a good point about Power Plate. If you can mount the flat plate fitting that bolts to the Glide's strut, you can bolt it to a Power Plate.

Then you can use a regular tuttle that goes onto the top of the Power Plate. (Power Plate has optional tuttle, deep tuttle, and powerbox top fittings. You could select the regular tuttle for your Wizard.)

A note about this. The deep tuttle fitting that goes onto the top of the Power Plate is not as deep as some others. A friend of mine has a AHD board with a "regular" tuttle finbox. He uses a Power Plate with the deep tuttle fitting, and it goes in fully. YMMV. If there is a chance the deep tuttle won't fit, get the regular tuttle.

The big aluminum "washer" I was talking about is shown in the attached photo. It bridges to the tops of the chimneys and spreads the load onto the top skin of the board, where it belongs.

Great info people, really appreciate you explaining the systems to me, i will make a aluminium washer as Segler, the box is shallow compared to the head, i will take a look into making it fit snug or swap some things around to hopefully make it work. cheers once again

If you know anyone with a mill they can easily shave that head down to Chinook (medium) tuttle height. You could probably do it on a belt sander easily enough too.

Save you the $350 and extra weight of using a power plate.

I'm wondering how a power plate could solve this ?
Foil doesn't seem to have a top plate. Just a tuttle head
or am I missing something ?

edit :
unless the foil has this part

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Grantmac said..
If you know anyone with a mill they can easily shave that head down to Chinook (medium) tuttle height. You could probably do it on a belt sander easily enough too.

Save you the $350 and extra weight of using a power plate.

Yeah, good idea, could also use an angle grinder with a metal cutting disk, or even a hacksaw, since it is aluminum.

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seanhogan said..
I'm wondering how a power plate could solve this ?
Foil doesn't seem to have a top plate. Just a tuttle head
or am I missing something ?

edit :
unless the foil has this part

Yes, assuming fitting that and powerplate. Long way around to reach your elbow, I'll admit.

Grantmac has a more elegant solution, assuming there's enough thread left in the tuttle head for the screws.

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Paducah said..

seanhogan said..
I'm wondering how a power plate could solve this ?
Foil doesn't seem to have a top plate. Just a tuttle head
or am I missing something ?

edit :
unless the foil has this part

Yes, assuming fitting that and powerplate. Long way around to reach your elbow, I'll admit.

Grantmac has a more elegant solution, assuming there's enough thread left in the tuttle head for the screws.

Just drill it deeper and install stainless inserts while you're at it.

Shaved 5mm off the top and belt sanded the radius back on, seats quite tight with approximately.5mm away from the bottom of the Tuttle box, made a aluminium long washer, picked up some hex screws and now time to go foiling, cheers once again people, great info and wasn't to keen to cut it down but glad I asked

Very good. Good job. With the 5mm still showing, make sure the head fits in there tight without any looseness at all. If there is ANY looseness, you have to keep shaving the top. Again, what is critical is a tight fit of both front and back rounded tapers in the box, with zero movement.

Good job, glad you got the two to work. I would coat the exposed aluminum with 2 part waterproof clear epoxy, just wipe it on with a Qtip or something, to protect it from either salt water or fresh water. Should not change the fit if you make it a thin coat. Just be careful to keep the epoxy out of the threaded holes!

And since you removed 5 mm of threads, I would make sure the screws go all the way to the bottom of the threaded holes, may have to trim the stock screws, just put a nut on the screw before cutting down, so nut will straighten out the end threads when you remove the nut.

You want the screws to engage at least 9 threads, so nine revolutions, before bottoming out. Could always tap the screw holes them deeper if needed.

Three cheers for Grantmac for coming up with a good solution!

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remoc said..
Shaved 5mm off the top and belt sanded the radius back on, seats quite tight with approximately.5mm away from the bottom of the Tuttle box, made a aluminium long washer, picked up some hex screws and now time to go foiling, cheers once again people, great info and wasn't to keen to cut it down but glad I asked

That was the best solution by far,
The best thing with option is the tuttle head is removable and can be replaced should you need to for any reason down the track
The thread is very deep in those heads so I expect you will still have enough,
I would shave off another 5mm and get it sitting flush with the bottom of the board,

I agree with Tonyk. Take off more and make it flush. If it is still "high" like in the photo, it is still probably not completely seated.

Caution: this next statement is controversial: you do NOT want the head to make contact with the inside top of the finbox. The only contact should be on the front and back rounded tapers. This is how you ensure full seating and zero movement.

Like Grantmac says, drilling deeper (if necessary) and putting in threaded stainless inserts is a good solution. I have done that for a SS head and Power Plate head to convert them from metric to 1/4-20.

You could also drill out the M6 threads and tap them to M10 like Slingshot. You then could use short M10 screws with washers and they will fit into the recess.

Cheers for the info people, I didn't put the screws in when I took the photo, I does pull down flush with the board, Seglar to properly check if the rounded ends are touching and not the middle I would have to do a cast of the box, sounds like a bit of work, I'm pretty happy how it's seated, I have taken it out with a lot of crashing going on, there's a bit of breeze coming Tuesday here so hopefully I will be able to fly it a bit longer then I did the other day, thanks once again, excellent info

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remoc said..
Cheers for the info people, I didn't put the screws in when I took the photo, I does pull down flush with the board, Seglar to properly check if the rounded ends are touching and not the middle I would have to do a cast of the box, sounds like a bit of work, I'm pretty happy how it's seated, I have taken it out with a lot of crashing going on, there's a bit of breeze coming Tuesday here so hopefully I will be able to fly it a bit longer then I did the other day, thanks once again, excellent info

I am glad it is working. If you want to check if there is any place where the top of the head is touching the foil box, you can use playdoh or similar dough. Make 4-5 little balls (the size of a rice), toss them in the box in different places, set and tighten the foil. When you remove the foil, you will see how squished the dough is.

Last week I wrote off my beloved Carbon Art 119.

Older NP foil, fully seated into the deep Tuttle box, mudguard and rubber washers between the bolts and the deck, no shims or other modifications. Second run of the day, up on the foil....heard a crunch and the nose of the board dropped.
My fat A$$ was heavy enough to bend the rear bolt, drag the front bolt backward through the deck, drive the foil mast through the front of the box and the top rear corner of the foil's Tuttle head through the back of the box.

Fast forward to today and I found myself wondering if I'm insane (trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome)

Long story short my new Patrik128 has all the same injuries as my carbon art.

Please send help (or at least advice).....I can't afford to destroy a board every time I go out

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BFlood said..
Last week I wrote off my beloved Carbon Art 119.

Older NP foil, fully seated into the deep Tuttle box, mudguard and rubber washers between the bolts and the deck, no shims or other modifications. Second run of the day, up on the foil....heard a crunch and the nose of the board dropped.
My fat A$$ was heavy enough to bend the rear bolt, drag the front bolt backward through the deck, drive the foil mast through the front of the box and the top rear corner of the foil's Tuttle head through the back of the box.

Fast forward to today and I found myself wondering if I'm insane (trying the same thing and expecting a different outcome)

Long story short my new Patrik128 has all the same injuries as my carbon art.

Please send help (or at least advice).....I can't afford to destroy a board every time I go out

Do these boards have foil approved deep tuttle boxes? Your weight?

You can either do it yourself or if you have a board builder within range - refit with a proper foil box. You'll still be able to fin with it.

There are less expensive alternatives about but these are really good and they'll give you instructions if you get one on how to do it yourself.

www.seatexboards.com/product/deep-tuttle-foil-box-fin/

95kg. Not foil approved boxes

appreciate I should be using reinforced boxes. I was surprised by the contrast in how many people are putting foils in any old board vs how many boards I've destroyed in my first month in the air

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BFlood said..
95kg. Not foil approved boxes

appreciate I should be using reinforced boxes. I was surprised by the contrast in how many people are putting foils in any old board vs how many boards I've destroyed in my first month in the air

Depending on the weight and type of foil, it is possible. If your boards are in good shape, install a foil approved tuttle box (seatex) and/or tuttle with track (I think BluePlanet makes one). Some deep tuttle boxes are very strong. It is a good upgrade if going to foil. I personally would go strongest possible and use the one from Seatex. I have one in my garage; just never got to installing it yet on my formula board. But it looks really strong.

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BFlood said..
95kg. Not foil approved boxes

appreciate I should be using reinforced boxes. I was surprised by the contrast in how many people are putting foils in any old board vs how many boards I've destroyed in my first month in the air

Obviously, you are putting more stress on the gear at 95kg than I am at 72 but you also have nice, high performance boards where, by design, there isn't an abundance of extra material vs a lower level board with a lot more glass, etc. You likely have a thin sandwich with single or few layers of carbon vs a rec level board with wood and several layers of glass. Carbon is wonderfully stiff and lightweight but glass, while heavier, can take more abuse and S-Glass, in particular, is actually stronger. Moral of the story - quit owning such nice stuff!

BluePlanet does, indeed, have some nice track boxes. Be aware that their combo box's tuttle has screw oriented for the GoFoil and doesn't quite line up with true tuttle fins so will require a bit of fiddling with the foil which may be more difficult for those with aluminum. Seatex has some nice track boxes as well. A nice box not only has strong walls but lots of pricey divynicell surrounding to spread the load better.

I think we can conclude by now (in the 5 year history of foiling) that if you must use a board with a stock deep tuttle finbox not expressly rated for foiling, you should use a foil with a flange. This spreads the load more onto the bottom of the board rather than just the box.

Also, use a large washer on top to spread loads onto the top skin, too. If your board has those chimneys that the screws fit down into, definitely go with a top washer that bridges those chimneys.

+1 for what Segler says.
I've been using a slalom board, a foil with a flange and a very big washer (a few layers of carbon and a deckpad on top of it, two holes for the bolts) for two seasons now.
Recently I ran the foil into muddy ground at an exact 19,28 knots on my GW 60: The front bolt was bent, everything else was fine. Don't know much of the catapult, though, it all went too quick.

I agree with the above and since I am not familiar with Blue Planet box; the screws are an issue (angle). I will also mention that the owner of Seatex doesn't care for the combo (tracks & foil approved deep tuttle). He feels that there isn't enough strength and hence doesn't make them. You also have to disregard many comments " I use them with a normal tuttle ... it works". A guy that is 68kg with a free ride foil vs. a 105kg with race foil has much different forces. Forget about the sail weight and other factors. I am highly confident that I would be able to break most normal tuttle boards with my weight (110kg). All my foils have a flange on the bottom and that is important. The top support (segler) is vital. And Paducah makes valid points. The only board that I would risk with normal deep tuttle is my beginner board which is an older Bic Techno 185. Might have to pull it out again and see how it works.

Seatex discount on tuttle boxes this coming week.

www.seatexboards.com/foiling-week-deep-tuttle-foil-box-discount/

I'll bet Seatex could design and make a really big, and REALLY BEEFY, finbox that has both deep tuttle and dual-track. If it was all one big structural box, it would be plenty strong enough. That said, I have to agree with him that starting with a deep tuttle box, then just adding tracks on each side, might not be very strong.

North Pacific in Hood River makes really strong DT box foil boards by attaching forward-running stringers to the sides of the box and embedding them into the board structure several inches forward. This carries the fore and aft cantilevering forces much better than a box alone.