I'm trying to learn how to 360 with limited success. My best attempt was about 270. Often I end up in the back winded position after 180 degrees but unable to turn into the wind. I find the nose of the board wants to go downwind not upwind. My back winded skills are fairly limited and I struggle to helicopter tack off the foil.

Any tips or things to concentrate on when trying to 360 on the foil?

Should I be trying to use the power in the sail when backwinded to complete the 360? Or should I just be feathering the sail to minimise drag and concentrate on the carving?

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simonp123 said..
I'm trying to learn how to 360 with limited success. My best attempt was about 270. Often I end up in the back winded position after 180 degrees but unable to turn into the wind. I find the nose of the board wants to go downwind not upwind. My back winded skills are fairly limited and I struggle to helicopter tack off the foil.

Any tips or things to concentrate on when trying to 360 on the foil?

Should I be trying to use the power in the sail when backwinded to complete the 360? Or should I just be feathering the sail to minimise drag and concentrate on the carving?

when I started i tried to keep the sail luffed as long as possible... then things got a little better when I got a little backwind pop at ~180 degrees to help continue the glide to ~270 and beyond. being able to do it well already on a windsurf board definitely help a ton (i usually do it in both straps on a regular windsurfer). for me the technique is slightly different than windsurfing and the opposite of what i was expecting... i actually use the backwind more on the foil. With either it's important to get the power of the sail low and back on the board when you start getting backwinded. If your nose is getting pushed off the wind you need to depower the sail more and/or get the power of the sail further back on the board

www.sailworks.com/tech-tip-downwind-foiling-360

The tips I found most useful were
Keep your front arm straight
Pull up on the back hand
Look up and
Rake the sail back

If you can, get someone to video your attempts so you can watch them back. It's surprisingly easy to identify your mistakes and gives you something to work on for your next session

Dont give up, your first successful one is worth (in my case) the near hundred crashes attempting
Simon

I am about where you are on these OP. Looking at kevin's video and the sailworks link seems like I definitely need to lay that sail down way more.

Perhaps I should practice doing laydown foiling gybes first

Thanks for the feedback. I never did master the 360 when windsurfing but it feels more achievable on the foil :)

I'll keep trying. It must be a rush when you pull off the first one!

I've found if you stop turning you have too much power in the sail. It also happens regularly to me, about 4 out of 5 I finish the 360, the 5th one I end up backwinded like you. A trick which helped me do my first few was that I'd gain speed in a 15+ knot gust and then 360 in a 4 knot lull in offshore winds ;). Without wind you dont stop carving, its awesome. After you get the height dialed you can focus on the sail more and start doing them in more powered locations.

I have no experience doing 360s yet. But that makes sence Bart. Today gusty winds, gaining speed and carving downwind(180deg) and the sail almost disappears from apprent wind and maybe oversheeting a bit and you float down wind with no power in the sail until I start going upwind again. I feel like this is my training wheels exercise before I attempt 360s

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WhiteofHeart said..
I've found if you stop turning you have too much power in the sail. It also happens regularly to me, about 4 out of 5 I finish the 360, the 5th one I end up backwinded like you. A trick which helped me do my first few was that I'd gain speed in a 15+ knot gust and then 360 in a 4 knot lull in offshore winds ;). Without wind you dont stop carving, its awesome. After you get the height dialed you can focus on the sail more and start doing them in more powered locations.

That's an excellent idea. I gybed into a lull the other day, got badly back winded and couldn't unhook. When I gave up and fell in I realised the board had gone through 360 degrees!

Were you guy doing 360s on the F One board at Weymouth Speed Week last October?

Simon..after you master the carving 360, what's the next trick lined up?

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sunsetsailboards said..

simonp123 said..
I'm trying to learn how to 360 with limited success. My best attempt was about 270. Often I end up in the back winded position after 180 degrees but unable to turn into the wind. I find the nose of the board wants to go downwind not upwind. My back winded skills are fairly limited and I struggle to helicopter tack off the foil.

Any tips or things to concentrate on when trying to 360 on the foil?

Should I be trying to use the power in the sail when backwinded to complete the 360? Or should I just be feathering the sail to minimise drag and concentrate on the carving?

when I started i tried to keep the sail luffed as long as possible... then things got a little better when I got a little backwind pop at ~180 degrees to help continue the glide to ~270 and beyond. being able to do it well already on a windsurf board definitely help a ton (i usually do it in both straps on a regular windsurfer). for me the technique is slightly different than windsurfing and the opposite of what i was expecting... i actually use the backwind more on the foil. With either it's important to get the power of the sail low and back on the board when you start getting backwinded. If your nose is getting pushed off the wind you need to depower the sail more and/or get the power of the sail further back on the board

wow! you make that look easy, i want to try that some time

.. and SunsetS was making foil 360's within 30 foiling days!

Sorry, I think he was making foil 360's in half the days and making 70% foiling jibes in 30 foil days.
Some guys just pick it up quickly.

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RuddeBos said..
Simon..after you master the carving 360, what's the next trick lined up?

I'd like to be able to do a foiling tack. Not sure whether a helicopter or duck tack is easier.Maybe that's something only Balz Muller can do:

Should be easy.. just need to go foiling every day !

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simonp123 said..

I'd like to be able to do a foiling tack. Not sure whether a helicopter or duck tack is easier.

Trying the heli tack is easy enough. I made decent progress in one session that I tried, although I did not foil through. The duck tack is a bit different. I can do it in light wind on a regular windsurfer all day long, but on the foil, the old school duck tack that Balz does at 0:50 in the movie is a bit of a different animal: the apparent wind is quite high, since the board is pointing directly into the wind, and has quite a bit of speed. Looks quite cool when Balz does it, though.

One of these days I'll go to get out there.

Play the video at .25 speed on a desktop and watch only the position of a body part/equipment, play/pause for the critical parts, don't let the eyes wander from that part. Watch it at least twice for each body part/equipment.
1) Arm boom connection (straight/bent) you notice that at an extreme angle both arms are bent for .5 seconds.
2) Boom camera angle; imagine where the clew camera is as the turn progresses (rake). Also beam vs broad reach angle.
3) Hip position/Torso relative to the board. Hip is stable on top of the board - same angle as the board, torso too until board is at an extreme angle. At this angle torso tilts towards leeward, both arms are bent, clew is brought back close to the knee/torso in beam reach
4) Foot position. Out of the strap heel inline with backstrap, foot 90 degress. As the turn progresses his foot crawls so that the heel moved closer to centerline. I'm not sure if one foot movement to inline vs crawl method. Obviously crawling would be hard to do in boots.
5) Landmark the mountain and notice when he gets into the turn, the most extreme angle - for how long until the board rolls back to neutral.
6) Notice the extreme body position at 17.5-19.5 seconds - scroll with mouse. Torso, arm, hip, back leg bent, front leg straight, most importantly body weight back with rig away from body for counterbalance.
6) Draw on paper the 360 relative to what the body/sail/board is doing at 80, 120, 140, 200, 280 degrees.

My morning coffee armchair tips.

Good Luck....nah, its TOW (desire, commitment, capability, monitor)...cheers!

PS: Thank You Sunset Sailboard for the video.

Learning the downwind foil 360. Just got my first few recently. It's a great feeling when you come around smoothly, I reckon after 270 is the hardest part of the move. I found when I keep the front arm straight and back arm sheeting in a bit, look up things started to click. Could probably lay the sail down more(?) I'm still figuring out how high to come in. I need to adjust foil height depending on gusts.

Any tips for foiling out of the 360?
I would like to get more confident hitting them at a higher success rate then hopefully that will fall into place. I am hitting about 1 every 4 attempts. But managed 3 in a row yesterday.

Gaining speed in the gusts then 360 in a lull works great but don't get much sail power on the way out. Any tips on this is appreciated. As you can see from the video I am not going very fast and working on long easy carving.

www.instagram.com/p/CEkxy4NjxjK/?igshid=178jyorkqvoui

no tips from me, I have been getting around half the time but never foiling out. Your 360 looks pretty sweet though

I don't know if this helps. Off all the times you blew the 360 how many times did you do a nose dive vs a breach. From the video i see a nose dive so maybe shift the weight back? Looking at the Sunset video at the end of the 360 his body is positioned over the foil mast.

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CAN17 said..
Learning the downwind foil 360. Just got my first few recently. It's a great feeling when you come around smoothly, I reckon after 270 is the hardest part of the move. I found when I keep the front arm straight and back arm sheeting in a bit, look up things started to click. Could probably lay the sail down more(?) I'm still figuring out how high to come in. I need to adjust foil height depending on gusts.

Any tips for foiling out of the 360?
I would like to get more confident hitting them at a higher success rate then hopefully that will fall into place. I am hitting about 1 every 4 attempts. But managed 3 in a row yesterday.

Gaining speed in the gusts then 360 in a lull works great but don't get much sail power on the way out. Any tips on this is appreciated. As you can see from the video I am not going very fast and working on long easy carving.

www.instagram.com/p/CEkxy4NjxjK/?igshid=178jyorkqvoui

Your 360 looks much better than mine. I seem to be dipping my head rather than standing more upright. Currently, I'm only doing them in really light winds with a 6m and hoping it gets easier with a small sail.



My best attempt to date (not this one) was one where I came out on the foil but there just wasn't enough wind to keep foiling.

Also, I'm not holding the rig away from me with straight arms. In this picture I've got my body resting against the boom.

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CYVRWoody said..
I don't know if this helps. Off all the times you blew the 360 how many times did you do a nose dive vs a breach. From the video i see a nose dive so maybe shift the weight back? Looking at the Sunset video at the end of the 360 his body is positioned over the foil mast.

At 180 deg I would sometimes get too high and have a wing tip come out during carving. The first video that actually happened at 7sec but was minor and able to keep foiling. Opposite of that I would be too low and touch down from coming in too slow and not giving the foil enough lift. I would usually breach when getting backwinded from having the sail too upright. When I first started them I was not straightening my front arm and getting lifted from the back wind position. I will try weighting my back leg more coming out of it. 3.5 weather today so will see how things go

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simonp123 said..

CAN17 said..
Learning the downwind foil 360. Just got my first few recently. It's a great feeling when you come around smoothly, I reckon after 270 is the hardest part of the move. I found when I keep the front arm straight and back arm sheeting in a bit, look up things started to click. Could probably lay the sail down more(?) I'm still figuring out how high to come in. I need to adjust foil height depending on gusts.

Any tips for foiling out of the 360?
I would like to get more confident hitting them at a higher success rate then hopefully that will fall into place. I am hitting about 1 every 4 attempts. But managed 3 in a row yesterday.

Gaining speed in the gusts then 360 in a lull works great but don't get much sail power on the way out. Any tips on this is appreciated. As you can see from the video I am not going very fast and working on long easy carving.

www.instagram.com/p/CEkxy4NjxjK/?igshid=178jyorkqvoui

Your 360 looks much better than mine. I seem to be dipping my head rather than standing more upright. Currently, I'm only doing them in really light winds with a 6m and hoping it gets easier with a small sail.

My best attempt to date (not this one) was one where I came out on the foil but there just wasn't enough wind to keep foiling.

Also, I'm not holding the rig away from me with straight arms. In this picture I've got my body resting against the boom.

Nice one! Much smoother landing then my nose dives
I would check the sailworks how to 360 page I got a ton of useful info there(in 2Keen's post above). They say to keep the front arm straight and back one sheeting in a bit. Gets the sail away from you more, so you can also lay the sail down more. Less chance of getting backwinded with this technique. The video and pictures of the sail works guy really shows how low his sail is.

Sailwork's video to go with their advice; Colson's hip bend 1:01, 1:40. As always play it at .25 speed.


www.sailworks.com/video-gallery

I don't do anywhere near that amount of forward bending. Emiltron seems to do the same. Gonna try it

That Colson Zack at Sailworks does the best foiling 360s.

I think I've been keeping my body in a straight line above the foil. Must try the bend at the hip with straight arms.