After seeing incredible success with Phantom foil at the PWA World Cup 2021 as discussed in this forum, I am wondering how phantom foil performs for non competition setting. Based on archival search, I do not see many comments regarding Phantom foils including free style foils. It would be great to hear from this community if anyone has experience for the Phantom foil performance. I understand that N. Goya had an incredible preparation but I am wondering if the foil shape and stiffness and other factors are also different than other brands.

Get a set and write a review . I have a feeling that other manufacturers will start carrying a foil of the same size/speed as his 430 at least, maybe as far down as the 350 speed front wing. I think most people were probably on larger fronts than Goyard.

Starboard doesn't offer anything smaller than the 550 now. Hopefully they (and other competitors) step up and widen the options quickly. I'm waiting to see what happens.

Unless you got money to burn and want to be the absolute fastest on the water stick with what you have.

The majority of wind foil designs today have been developed by someone sticking the finger into the wind and then best guess designing a foil. This is in stark contrast to Americas Cup foil design which uses Hydrodynamic simulation software and flow tanks to figure out the most efficient design.

Not that there is anything wrong with this method. The market and money involved in windfoiling is relatively small when compared to an Americas Cup design (more the money than market). Hydrodynamic modelling is expensive and needs someone that has subject specific design knowledge.

As for Goyard's win. I'd be inclined to say a large potion of that should be attributed to the rider. As we have seen during the Silvaplana Foil comp last year when everyone is on the same kit the two big factors are rider weight to foil ratio and rider ability. At Silvaplana the biggest factor was rider weight to foil size ratio.

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stehsegler said..
Unless you got money to burn and want to be the absolute fastest on the water stick with what you have.

The majority of wind foil designs today have been developed by someone sticking the finger into the wind and then best guess designing a foil. This is in stark contrast to Americas Cup foil design which uses Hydrodynamic simulation software and flow tanks to figure out the most efficient design.

Not that there is anything wrong with this method. The market and money involved in windfoiling is relatively small when compared to an Americas Cup design (more the money than market). Hydrodynamic modelling is expensive and needs someone that has subject specific design knowledge.

As for Goyard's win. I'd be inclined to say a large potion of that should be attributed to the rider. As we have seen during the Silvaplana Foil comp last year when everyone is on the same kit the two big factors are rider weight to foil ratio and rider ability. At Silvaplana the biggest factor was rider weight to foil size ratio.

The CEO of phantom originally was working on Catamaran foiling but because of his background in windsurfing, they decided to extend their expertise on foil design to windfoiling as well. Based on the their story (below), I would be open to the idea that it may be their design and foil construct could be more superior.
www.catsailingnews.com/2019/10/2nd-ever-pwa-windsurf-foil-title-for-phantom-foils-qa-with-alex-udin.html

I thought the design guys behind Phantom, are using America's cup modelling

My training mate when racing was riding an Iris R foil

If you are gonna go Phantom I would recommend getting at least the X or R mast. I tried the original Phantom R & F mast (the latter has been replaced by the Z), and the F mast really lacked stiffness (both torsion and bending), making the foil really hard to control in gusty conditions. The F mast was superb though.

Compared to the Lokefoil Race I had at the time the Phantom felt faster / more slippery, but the Lokefoil had a more constant powerdelivery, felt like it powered up in slightly less wind & was more stable in roll (easier to use). (The Lokefoil Racefoils have this thing where if you reach a certain wind/boardspeed they stay powered up regardless. In addition, after reaching that 'border' the powerdelivery was very constant /flat up to a very high point.)

The new evo fuselages should have even more power than the original phantom though, that might increase the consistency of the powerdelivery & low-end powerup 'border'. I believe the original Phantom fuselage had the front wing slightly further back than the loke race, but im not sure (been a while since I raced).

If you want the fastest and have the skills to use it go Phantom, otherwise I would recommend a Lokefoil racefoil. In terms of feel both way outperform a starboard race (the starboard feels quite draggy), however, around the track they all perform similar.

Im not sure about freestyle, the fuselages are quite thin (low drag), so not sure they would be built to withstand the forces of landing a jump and I dont think you'd get warranty if you bend the fuselage in a jump.

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stehsegler said..
Unless you got money to burn and want to be the absolute fastest on the water stick with what you have.

The majority of wind foil designs today have been developed by someone sticking the finger into the wind and then best guess designing a foil. This is in stark contrast to Americas Cup foil design which uses Hydrodynamic simulation software and flow tanks to figure out the most efficient design.

Not that there is anything wrong with this method. The market and money involved in windfoiling is relatively small when compared to an Americas Cup design (more the money than market). Hydrodynamic modelling is expensive and needs someone that has subject specific design knowledge.

As for Goyard's win. I'd be inclined to say a large potion of that should be attributed to the rider. As we have seen during the Silvaplana Foil comp last year when everyone is on the same kit the two big factors are rider weight to foil ratio and rider ability. At Silvaplana the biggest factor was rider weight to foil size ratio.

Phantom foils note that the design is "supervised by Ellis Engineered" (AKA Brett Ellis), who is Australian, and of all things happened to be an engineer on the previous 5 runnings of the Americas Cup: Alinghi in 2007 and 2010, Luna Rossa Challenge in 2013, Artemis Racing in 2017 and INEOS Team UK in 2021.

So I reckon if there's anyone out there who isn't doing a thumb suck design with made up marketing hydrodynamics buzzwords, its probably Phantom.

www.phantom-windsurfing.com/foils
www.ellisengineered.com/

So yeah, if you want the best, and are going to spend $$ on a race foil, phantom seems like a pretty good choice, they certainly appear to be competitive. And appear to be spending their budget on development, and letting their results do the marketing for them. There is no doubt however that Nico is top tier in the foiling game, as evidence by his recent IQFoil results.

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swoosh said..

stehsegler said..
Unless you got money to burn and want to be the absolute fastest on the water stick with what you have.

The majority of wind foil designs today have been developed by someone sticking the finger into the wind and then best guess designing a foil. This is in stark contrast to Americas Cup foil design which uses Hydrodynamic simulation software and flow tanks to figure out the most efficient design.

Not that there is anything wrong with this method. The market and money involved in windfoiling is relatively small when compared to an Americas Cup design (more the money than market). Hydrodynamic modelling is expensive and needs someone that has subject specific design knowledge.

As for Goyard's win. I'd be inclined to say a large potion of that should be attributed to the rider. As we have seen during the Silvaplana Foil comp last year when everyone is on the same kit the two big factors are rider weight to foil ratio and rider ability. At Silvaplana the biggest factor was rider weight to foil size ratio.

Phantom foils note that the design is "supervised by Ellis Engineered" (AKA Brett Ellis), who is Australian, and of all things happened to be an engineer on the previous 5 runnings of the Americas Cup: Alinghi in 2007 and 2010, Luna Rossa Challenge in 2013, Artemis Racing in 2017 and INEOS Team UK in 2021.

So I reckon if there's anyone out there who isn't doing a thumb suck design with made up marketing hydrodynamics buzzwords, its probably Phantom.

www.phantom-windsurfing.com/foils
www.ellisengineered.com/

So yeah, if you want the best, and are going to spend $$ on a race foil, phantom seems like a pretty good choice, they certainly appear to be competitive. And appear to be spending their budget on development, and letting their results do the marketing for them. There is no doubt however that Nico is top tier in the foiling game, as evidence by his recent IQFoil results.

Their Iris X line is actually reasonably priced for what you get (wings/fuses). Shorter and less stiff mast than the full zoot Iris R but identical in all other aspects.

The AFS foil is another option in all carbon (Phantom has an Alu fuselage), and the new AFS 95 mast has 5 wings (smallest is 660 cm2) versus Lokefoil 3 wings (smallest is 450 cm2). And I would trust the AFS solid carbon fuselage in free style over any Alu fuselage.

I wouldn't make any comparison on what a foil felt like 2 years ago. LokeFoil and Phantom are priced very close. They are the 2 companies that recognized right away that a smaller front wing was needed in the PWA (Phantom 430 / Loke 480) . The results proved that they were right. F4 also just made a small front wing at 420 cm2.

Phantom switched their production last year from the same company that Starboard and F4 foils are made. The tolerance at the prior facility was not satisfactory. In reference to quality, I would say that Phantom is top notch, but don't really think it matters unless you are a pro. Testing for torsional strength, flex and Young module; F4 does really well overall. In the tests that I have seen, it didn't use the 2021 Phantom or Loke Foils. I don't know if that would have made a difference from 2020 to 2021.

Alex Udin (Phantom) is really helpful, product line up is clear and the product top notch in terms of development. You are getting a premium product. Does one really need it?

If I was going to spend some serious money on a good foil, Phantom would be my top pick. The others Loke Foil and F4. I am not saying that Starboard IQ, AFS is bad, but why not go with the best if you are already spending a good amount.

Technical advice (English language) directly from developer is the best from F4 and Phantom. You can speak directly to Chris (F4) or Alex (Phantom). There is also a reason why carbon isn't used by F4, Starboard and Phantom in longer fuselage. You can see the video on YouTube from F4 (Chris Radkowski) or Starboard (Remi Villa).

FYI, I am referencing top of the line of each manufacture. Starboard IQ, F4 HMC and Phantom R.

For non competition I think you are just fine with lower end foils. Not really sure if it pays off getting premium, top of the line foils. But then, we always want the best.

ZeroVix,
Would you mind linking the video where it is explained why carbon is not used in race fuses? There are a lot of videos and some are long.
But this question has been at the front of my mind for a while.
Thanks!

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utcminusfour said..
ZeroVix,
Would you mind linking the video where it is explained why carbon is not used in race fuses? There are a lot of videos and some are long.
But this question has been at the front of my mind for a while.
Thanks!

Off the top of my head, I think it was in these 2 videos.

-stzEraG734A&index=7&t=2668s



In the test result by GlissAttitude, full carbon didn't produce better torsion or flex results. Durability might be another issue that wasn't measured.

windfoilfan.glissattitude.com/

I had last year the Iris X Premium Package (L & M Foil) with the 90, 100, 110 and the EVO Fuselages.
The X works perfect. The differences between normal fuses and the Evo are obvious on the water - not all guys prefered the Evo with the front foil more in front.
Please consider that the newer Evo fuses are made out of airplane aluminium, the old one out of marine grade aluminium (there was a difference using them in salt water).
My only issue have been the drilling holes in the fuses, which faded away after around 20 sessions.

Comparing the Iris X with my new Sabfoils 107 Race (1000 & 800) I would prefer the Sabfoils: earlier foiling, better flying jibes, a bit faster.
The Iris X mast (it's a freerace not a race) is softer than the extreme stiff Sabfoil Race mast.

The Iris RF sail is wunderful - I have it as 8.0 (2020) and 6.0 (2021). Perfect foiling sails - but they are very very light and therefore very sensible (if you use them 60 x saison, the durability is somewhere limited). The 8.0 Iris RF is one the same performance level as the Patrik Foil+ 8.0 - but they have a different characteristic.

why not go ahead and buy the best? just beware that you will no longer be able to blame your gear if you get passed!

AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

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Sandman1221 said..
AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

The AFS foils are not competative in terms of up/down performance. The mast is also not at the same level of torsional stiffness as the loke / phantom. We tried. Too little power in the short fuselage. In terms of speed im not sure, we never tried a flat out drag race.

Anybody have insight on what Starboard may end up offering? Would be nice to only have to buy a wing and fuse and not a mast.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..
AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

The AFS foils are not competative in terms of up/down performance. The mast is also not at the same level of torsional stiffness as the loke / phantom. We tried. Too little power in the short fuselage. In terms of speed im not sure, we never tried a flat out drag race.

Hey WoH, which AFS foils did you try? the earlier models had an 88 cm fuselage, the newest high performance ones have a 94.5 cm fuselage, I think they are on the 4th generation now. I am looking at getting a new foil and its probably going to be either an AFS or Lokefoil.

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Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..
AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

The AFS foils are not competative in terms of up/down performance. The mast is also not at the same level of torsional stiffness as the loke / phantom. We tried. Too little power in the short fuselage. In terms of speed im not sure, we never tried a flat out drag race.

Hey WoH, which AFS foils did you try? the earlier models had an 88 cm fuselage, the newest high performance ones have a 94.5 cm fuselage, I think they are on the 4th generation now. I am looking at getting a new foil and its probably going to be either an AFS or Lokefoil.

It was a 105cm mast, somewhere in the beginning of last year.

I just put a review for the F4 under the reviews thread. It was a close call for me to go Phantom or F4... in then end I saw the phantom 950 chord thickness and design looked very similar to the Starbord millennium and I preferred the feel of the AFS 1000R, but wanted something with a longer fuselage.

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WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..
AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

The AFS foils are not competative in terms of up/down performance. The mast is also not at the same level of torsional stiffness as the loke / phantom. We tried. Too little power in the short fuselage. In terms of speed im not sure, we never tried a flat out drag race.

Hey WoH, which AFS foils did you try? the earlier models had an 88 cm fuselage, the newest high performance ones have a 94.5 cm fuselage, I think they are on the 4th generation now. I am looking at getting a new foil and its probably going to be either an AFS or Lokefoil.

It was a 105cm mast, somewhere in the beginning of last year.

Fuselage length?, the older 88 cm fuselages were round, the new performance 94.5 cm fuselage is square. AFS made 105 masts with the 88 cm fuselage.

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Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..

WhiteofHeart said..

Sandman1221 said..
AFS makes some serious looking race wings, and I would include them in the premium line of foils, made in France like Lokefoils, no corrosion after 2+ years of frequent use in salt water, and I do not disassemble the foil regularly, but on an AFS the mast and fuse. is one piece. I change front wings often, but leave the stabilizer in. The tests of Alu versus carbon fuse. was probably done with a foil where the fuse. was bolted to the mast, just not as strong as a one piece mast/fuse. Go all carbon!

The AFS foils are not competative in terms of up/down performance. The mast is also not at the same level of torsional stiffness as the loke / phantom. We tried. Too little power in the short fuselage. In terms of speed im not sure, we never tried a flat out drag race.

Hey WoH, which AFS foils did you try? the earlier models had an 88 cm fuselage, the newest high performance ones have a 94.5 cm fuselage, I think they are on the 4th generation now. I am looking at getting a new foil and its probably going to be either an AFS or Lokefoil.

It was a 105cm mast, somewhere in the beginning of last year.

Fuselage length?, the older 88 cm fuselages were round, the new performance 94.5 cm fuselage is square. AFS made 105 masts with the 88 cm fuselage.

It was a round fuselage, so 88cm. But I doubt that 6cm increase will change much in terms of up/down performance.

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WhiteofHeart said..


It was a round fuselage, so 88cm. But I doubt that 6cm increase will change much in terms of up/down performance.

My only experience is with Starboard and Slingshot, but there is a very noticeable difference in upwind/downwind between the 115+ and 95+. Going back to the Slingshot i76, that felt even lower power going upwind even though when I first rode it I was amazed at how high I could go compared to a fin. I was also amazed at how stable the 115+ felt compared to the 95+. I think the Slingshot gets a lot of stability from the low aspect fat chord.

I'm surprised that AFS doesn't have longer fuses available. Are they one-piece with the mast or something? Seems like that would prevent them from being competitive.

The F4 range sounds pretty good from berowne's review.

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aeroegnr said..

WhiteofHeart said..


It was a round fuselage, so 88cm. But I doubt that 6cm increase will change much in terms of up/down performance.

My only experience is with Starboard and Slingshot, but there is a very noticeable difference in upwind/downwind between the 115+ and 95+. Going back to the Slingshot i76, that felt even lower power going upwind even though when I first rode it I was amazed at how high I could go compared to a fin. I was also amazed at how stable the 115+ felt compared to the 95+. I think the Slingshot gets a lot of stability from the low aspect fat chord.

I'm surprised that AFS doesn't have longer fuses available. Are they one-piece with the mast or something? Seems like that would prevent them from being competitive.

The F4 range sounds pretty good from berowne's review.

AFS now has a 94.5 cm fuselage in the one piece mast/fuselage, and Lokefoil has a 84 cm fuselage for the LK1 again in the one piece mast/fuselage, but the AFS 94.5 fuselage is a little longer than the wing/stabilizer, while the Lokefoil 2020 LK1 fuselage is a little shorter than the wing/stabilizer length. Maybe you can only go so long with a carbon fuselage before it flexes too much? Now the Lokefoil Race foil only has a 75 cm fuselage but length from wing to stabilizer is 115 cm due to the wing/stabilizer having a neck that connects to the fuselage making the effective length of the fuselage longer. The new AFS foil with 94.5 cm fuselage does not have a big surface area F1080 wing like the foil with 85 cm mast and shorter 88 cm fuselage, maybe the big wing flexes the longer fuselage? But I am getting good enough that I only use the F1080 in sub 10 knots, thinking the new AFS slalom wing S840 may work in sub 10 knots with more speed than the F1080. What I like about the AFS 95 cm mast/94.5 cm fuselage is that there is one stabilizer for 5 wings, while the Lokefoil and Phantom foils has a different stabilizer for each wing, maybe better optimized but can you feel the difference, and adds to the cost and setup/change out time.

AFS have a different design philosophy of larger rear wings and shorter fuselages... I think it is more suited to slalom personally.

So race foils with long fuselages require large radius jibes right? Someone said Nico was making really wide turns at the PWA, you would only do that if you had to because you loose water.

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stehsegler said..
As for Goyard's win. I'd be inclined to say a large potion of that should be attributed to the rider.

Absolutely. Goyard also won the IQ Foil Games on Lake Garda this year, finishing first in 7 out of 12 qualifying races. He came in first in 5 of 6 slalom races. He placed 2nd in the marathon, and got #1, 1, 2, 3, and 11 spots in course racing. Pretty impressive in a field of 69 competitors.

Among PWA sailors, he's probably the exception because he mostly trains on the foil, while most other guys trained on slalom gear a lot. Maybe that will change if we see more slalom events again in 2022. Bummer that Fuerte was canceled, it would have been interesting to see how he would have fared there.

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Sandman1221 said..
So race foils with long fuselages require large radius jibes right? Someone said Nico was making really wide turns at the PWA, you would only do that if you had to because you loose water.

No I don't think that's it. He's on a shorter fuselage than the 115+ I ride mostly, and I can crank a tight jibe entry if I want.It looked like tactics and the needs of riding a small front wing. If he loses too much speed in the jibe, he's dumping lift and adding drag into horizontal lift instead of vertical lift. He may have had to sweep wide to stay on the foil at the end. But, if you look at the videos where it's him and foilers, he's not going much wider than the other foilers. Just when you compare him to the fin guys in the same race, he does cut wider.

Watch this jibe around 2 minutes in. He's cutting deeper downwind, much lower than you'd probably want to go on a fin. Why? I'm pretty sure he can point higher and easier than the fin guys, and he gets cleaner air further downwind of them. Then, look at the jibe at around 2:55. He had to cut wide because he was very close to the mark, ending up pretty downwind. That's when he still was able to regain that lost ground and point upwind hard. He recovers that ground almost immediately and wins it.

Thanks aeroegnr, great race!