How do we feel about stepping up the deck around the nose about 1.5-2" higher then the foot strap area. On short windfoil boards under 5'5. It seems one of the big problems is the nose sinking with the weight of the sails making it harder to schlog and get foiling. Tony Logosz has done something simlair with the side bumps(probably the first one to do it 2 years ago). He is still adding them in prototype boards today making boards as short as 4'6
I saw the step nose on a wing board for the first time today(see picture) not sure if it would benefit them as much. Maybe it will catch on or turn into the cutouts vs no cutouts arguments. Just curious if anyone has tryed this I'm seriously thinking about having it in my own board build.

I'd rather have a concave deck where the feet go than just higher in front. Gets you some extra volume in the tail and I think the control would be better.

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Grantmac said..
I'd rather have a concave deck where the feet go than just higher in front. Gets you some extra volume in the tail and I think the control would be better.

One problem for me I can see with that is I already run my boom near the top of the sail cutouts...so would need a excessive about of extension for the boom to feel right if the mast foot is reasesed lower. It could work but I feel like the volume distribution will feel a bit off on a 115L 5'5 long board with a 5.4m sail, schlogging already sucks on my board with anything more then my 5.4. Forgot to mention i mostly uphaul rarely water start and I still tack my wizard 105L easy with its thin nose at 155lbs.

I think in concept it has merrit for those that want the smallest at all costs. I question the protos Logosz is creating where the forward rails are the highest point becasuse they will get crushed by the mast.
I just tested out my 5'9 by 5.5" thick home brew board. I like it in the air but hate it uphauling and schloging I thought that by making it thick and keeping the volume high it would uphaul but it's like trying to stand on a beach ball. I rode it before I did the paint to see if I liked it. I built it as a high wind board so it will see some use. I need to finish it before I post some pics. My next home brew will be longer and focused on really early take off so baically the opposite of what you sketched

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CAN17 said..

Grantmac said..
I'd rather have a concave deck where the feet go than just higher in front. Gets you some extra volume in the tail and I think the control would be better.

One problem for me I can see with that is I already run my boom near the top of the sail cutouts...so would need a excessive about of extension for the boom to feel right if the mast foot is reasesed lower. It could work but I feel like the volume distribution will feel a bit off on a 115L 5'5 long board with a 5.4m sail, schlogging already sucks on my board with anything more then my 5.4. Forgot to mention i mostly uphaul rarely water start and I still tack my wizard 105L easy with its thin nose at 155lbs.

I mean concave in just the standing area, the nose would be raised like your photo.

my Bolt 135 is 243 cm/7.97 feet long and that good for me with an AFS W95 foil and F/S series wings, but a wider tail above the water line would be nice, thinking of adding a deck extension using the rear foot strap holes. So a stepped out rear deck, trying to stay close to OP!

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utcminusfour said..
I think in concept it has merrit for those that want the smallest at all costs. I question the protos Logosz is creating where the forward rails are the highest point becasuse they will get crushed by the mast.
I just tested out my 5'9 by 5.5" thick home brew board. I like it in the air but hate it uphauling and schloging I thought that by making it thick and keeping the volume high it would uphaul but it's like trying to stand on a beach ball. I rode it before I did the paint to see if I liked it. I built it as a high wind board so it will see some use. I need to finish it before I post some pics. My next home brew will be longer and focused on really early take off so baically the opposite of what you sketched

Uphauling definitely takes some getting used to on a board that length if your used to riding bigger boards. Uphualing really gets tested in waves then it might feel like standing on a beach ball with someone pushing you. I have been on the wizard 105L for for over 2 years, before that came from a board that was 135L and 215cm long. I am woundering if going to buoyant in the tail might make it feel too Corky especially if it is under 75cm wide, from what you described. Some wingers find a board that sinks a bit easier to balance on since the water is hugging more of the board then something that is a simlair length but thicker making you sit higher like on a beach ball

Would love to see some pics of your board.

CAN17,
Here are some pics. It is a recycling effort using the board I built a few years ago. My goals were:
1)have fun doing it and don't take it too seriously, accomplished!
2)use up all my scraps and spend little, Only had to buy glue and the deck pad.
3)correlate my flotation calcs in my software to real life, check
4)create something shorter than my shred sled that I could uphaul with one foot in front of the mast, check
5)learn, check
It got thicker and shorter in build than the drawing below. It's 5'9", 5.5" thick and 140 liters. The square cut foam added to the deck is 1/2" thick H80 divinycell that comes on a scrim, it ships rolled so it is cheap shipping. I used it for more thickness and because I had it left over. I would not recommend it because it holds glue in all those gaps. The tuttle is a gofoil box that I had in the last board, the holes did not line up so I modified it to work. I went tuttle to save weight, the tracks alone before foam are heavier than this box with foam. My tuttle to track adapter weighs 1.5# so I saved close to 2# with this move. I ride strapless and this is so compressed that tracks are not required. I put the box forward of the tail for many reasons.
As I have said I rode this board once before it was done because of curiosity and doubt. In that session I went from not being able to even climb on it to being able to uphaul and sail it comfortably. I am planning on one more coat of the gray epoxy over everyting, sand that lightly, add the deck pad and screw down some webbing handles then it's done. I need way more time on it to comment any further on the ride. I already have the next board modeled and I am fired up for it but the reality of my schedule is that it will be a while. The good news for the next build is that I now have a local source for foam and CNC machine at my disposal.

Looks super nice UTC. tuttle not tracks?

Your missus (or roommate) doesn't mind you using the kitchen counter as a a work bench?

Fantastic recycling. You have given me an idea to recycle my 1st foil board effort. Thank you. I hope carbon innegra cuts as easily.

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utcminusfour said..
I think in concept it has merrit for those that want the smallest at all costs. I question the protos Logosz is creating where the forward rails are the highest point becasuse they will get crushed by the mast.
I just tested out my 5'9 by 5.5" thick home brew board. I like it in the air but hate it uphauling and schloging I thought that by making it thick and keeping the volume high it would uphaul but it's like trying to stand on a beach ball. I rode it before I did the paint to see if I liked it. I built it as a high wind board so it will see some use. I need to finish it before I post some pics. My next home brew will be longer and focused on really early take off so baically the opposite of what you sketched

I'm interested in optimised "early take off" longer narrow boards like the Kalama Barracuda, for windfoiling in 10-14 knots - keen to see what you come up with

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azymuth said..
I'm interested in optimised "early take off" longer narrow boards like the Kalama Barracuda, for windfoiling in 10-14 knots - keen to see what you come up with

That sent me down a rabbit hole. Interesting the development in the wing and foil surf world of the pinched flat tail. Maybe somewhat reminiscent of the Goya AirBolt (just a little)? I find it interesting that with the relatively small flat are on the bottom and pretty angled sides, it still gets up quickly. www.instagram.com/p/CaqqcHGgPiR/ www.instagram.com/p/CbDjTxKg-8d/

Hope not too off-topic since one of the challenges of a short board (for me) is getting it off the water quickly.

thedoor, I own a tuttle mast. The adapter is heavy and the twin tracks with out foam weigh more than the complete t box. I ride strapless so I don't need tracks.

boardhead, that board above is carbon and innegra. I cuts ok but man it slows the grinder down! Sanding it makes it fuzz, you have to keep it covered with glass or carbon.

azmuth, Paducah, Here is what I want to try next. I took kalama's E3 and scaled it up to 149 liters. The shred sled is drawn in plan view in orange for reference. I love to ride wings that lift before planning speeds. Pinching the tail like this lowers the drag at those speeds. The rocker is dead flat so it will still plane cleanly unlike the v1 sled. The magic happens when you pump a big wing not from planning surface that is draggy at low speeds. It's a bummer Kalama is not working on windfoil so one of us needs to try it. If someone has the time to start this I can share my CAD file or make you templates. I want to see the sport advance more than I want to be the first to try this. Pair this with a 1 meter wing span, a light/soft 6 meter, good kinetics and foiling in lower wind speeds should happen.

I put a stepped up deck in my first board, but it wasn't a huge step.

pro: extra stability and float in a thin nose
con: can't slide the mast all the way forward
conclusion: useful in tin shapes (10-ish cm thick) to uphoal, slog and allows you to move the mast more forward without the nose sitting to low on the water. Now I make the boards ticker and masttrack further back (for freeride/style use) so no need for such a feature.
Be ware that if you make the step sharp like in your drawing, it'll be a pain to laminate and probably cause a weak point in the overall construction.

going to do a new windfoiler soon.
My last board is very very good but I want something slightly wider and straight rails for 1/2 of the board (to slightly in front of the front foot) and not only final 1/3. Should improve low end pumping. Now it's not super efficient in sub 10/11 knots.

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utcminusfour said..
thedoor, I own a tuttle mast. The adapter is heavy and the twin tracks with out foam weigh more than the complete t box. I ride strapless so I don't need tracks.

boardhead, that board above is carbon and innegra. I cuts ok but man it slows the grinder down! Sanding it makes it fuzz, you have to keep it covered with glass or carbon.

azmuth, Paducah, Here is what I want to try next. I took kalama's E3 and scaled it up to 149 liters. The shred sled is drawn in plan view in orange for reference. I love to ride wings that lift before planning speeds. Pinching the tail like this lowers the drag at those speeds. The rocker is dead flat so it will still plane cleanly unlike the v1 sled. The magic happens when you pump a big wing not from planning surface that is draggy at low speeds. It's a bummer Kalama is not working on windfoil so one of us needs to try it. If someone has the time to start this I can share my CAD file or make you templates. I want to see the sport advance more than I want to be the first to try this. Pair this with a 1 meter wing span, a light/soft 6 meter, good kinetics and foiling in lower wind speeds should happen.

That's definitely the kind of tail I'm seeing a lot in the wing world right now. Interesting thing from those insta videos is how they don't necessarily depend on a big wing - the paddler gets up on a pretty small for their world HA wing. It would certainly be interesting if one had the resources to compare two prototypes - one with this type of tail vs one with more windsurf style cut outs.

I had a similar idea a while back, a 4'3 combo wing and windfoil board, with the stepped nose for added float when windfoiling. 65cm wide x 105L. Never got around to building it (or getting it built) though.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I had a similar idea a while back, a 4'3 combo wing and windfoil board, with the stepped nose for added float when windfoiling. 65cm wide x 105L. Never got around to building it (or getting it built) though.

I like the rocker line.
how thick is the board?

kinda makes more sense for a wingfoil imo. It's like the reverse kt jinxu! The feel of a thin board while maintaining float. Especially nice it keeps the nose up to get going. I've got a blank laying around that's 149 long and 60 wide for 90l but have no interest in proceeding that project as I designed a board range for a company that's launching their first wing line and will send me the mid-size 100l proto in a week or 2.
would be cool to proto a stepped deck wing board!
however as said above, it's not been super useful for windfoil in my experience.

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NicoDC said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I had a similar idea a while back, a 4'3 combo wing and windfoil board, with the stepped nose for added float when windfoiling. 65cm wide x 105L. Never got around to building it (or getting it built) though.

I like the rocker line.
how thick is the board?

kinda makes more sense for a wingfoil imo. It's like the reverse kt jinxu! The feel of a thin board while maintaining float. Especially nice it keeps the nose up to get going. I've got a blank laying around that's 149 long and 60 wide for 90l but have no interest in proceeding that project as I designed a board range for a company that's launching their first wing line and will send me the mid-size 100l proto in a week or 2.
would be cool to proto a stepped deck wing board!
however as said above, it's not been super useful for windfoil in my experience.

Its 6" under the straps as it is currently, thats what made me doubt the project in the end.. only 1/4" thicker than a starboard foilX 145 though.

Regarding the domed deck, I'vve seen a wingfoil board by 11380tarifa which almost made me wanna lay down the cash. www.instagram.com/p/CXYdLqpKO7o/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Really cool design with deep concaves under the straps to make the board feel thinner!

WhiteofHeart,
Sic model! There is a lot going there. Nice work! What tools do you use to design with?

Takuma is doing that somewhat with their last 2 board series - the TK series & now CK the deck is not stepped per se but the concave is defined & the deck in the nose is raised/curved for more volume...

...may try to put 8" mast track in one... maybe ?

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WhiteofHeart said..
I had a similar idea a while back, a 4'3 combo wing and windfoil board, with the stepped nose for added float when windfoiling. 65cm wide x 105L. Never got around to building it (or getting it built) though.

That board is so cool and it might give Tony Logosz a run for his money in the race to make the shortest windfoil board. Going that thick is obviously the only way to get to 105L, didn't think it was possible on a 4'3!

This was my first cutout to see what i got(sorry no software images). No stepped up nose, not sure if I even need it on a board this big. 166cm x 72cm x 5" thick(115L?). Parallel rails. Less or more rocker?

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CAN17 said..
This was my first cutout to see what i got(sorry no software images). No stepped up nose, not sure if I even need it on a board this big. 166cm x 72cm x 5" thick(115L?). Parallel rails. Less or more rocker?

Looks good but I'd make the nose thicker by adding an inch on the deck side of your rocker template. No need to be greedy with volume in such a compact board. It only benefits comfort and takeoff.

other than that, go for it! Don't overcomplicate the shape and construction. Enjoy experimenting!

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NicoDC said..

CAN17 said..
This was my first cutout to see what i got(sorry no software images). No stepped up nose, not sure if I even need it on a board this big. 166cm x 72cm x 5" thick(115L?). Parallel rails. Less or more rocker?

Looks good but I'd make the nose thicker by adding an inch on the deck side of your rocker template. No need to be greedy with volume in such a compact board. It only benefits comfort and takeoff.

other than that, go for it! Don't overcomplicate the shape and construction. Enjoy experimenting!

Have to agree the nose isn't that much thicker then my wizard 105L. The nose can be sinky with sails bigger then 5m, I'm 155lbs (dry weight without wetsuit gear). Although the strap area is about 5/8" thicker on my design. When I pump the wizard 105L board with my front foot in the strap, back foot out sometimes the nose can dip and catch chop. Extra nose volume would definitely help pump and go considering the nose of this board is a bit shorter then my 105L. As the sail loads up on every pump it puts mast foot pressure on the board causing the nose to sink a bit hopefully a nose with the added volume could bounce it self up above the water line earlier making getting foiling easier in light wind. Maybe it's a pipe dream making a board more compact and increasing light wind performance. I'm kinda being picky the wizard 105L is very good in light wind for a board its size i can get on foil just as early as guys on the bigger boards. Just want a board that feels more compact I've progressed a lot on the 105L but getting to the point where it feels big just like my 215cm 135L foilboard used to feel like a big board.

Added a 2" step to the original profile making the max thickness 7.3" and the thickness of the foot strap area is 6"(added 1"). Any any guess on volume of this now?
166cm x 72cm

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CAN17 said..

NicoDC said..

CAN17 said..
This was my first cutout to see what i got(sorry no software images). No stepped up nose, not sure if I even need it on a board this big. 166cm x 72cm x 5" thick(115L?). Parallel rails. Less or more rocker?

Looks good but I'd make the nose thicker by adding an inch on the deck side of your rocker template. No need to be greedy with volume in such a compact board. It only benefits comfort and takeoff.

other than that, go for it! Don't overcomplicate the shape and construction. Enjoy experimenting!

Have to agree the nose isn't that much thicker then my wizard 105L. The nose can be sinky with sails bigger then 5m, I'm 155lbs (dry weight without wetsuit gear). Although the strap area is about 5/8" thicker on my design. When I pump the wizard 105L board with my front foot in the strap, back foot out sometimes the nose can dip and catch chop. Extra nose volume would definitely help pump and go considering the nose of this board is a bit shorter then my 105L. As the sail loads up on every pump it puts mast foot pressure on the board causing the nose to sink a bit hopefully a nose with the added volume could bounce it self up above the water line earlier making getting foiling easier in light wind. Maybe it's a pipe dream making a board more compact and increasing light wind performance. I'm kinda being picky the wizard 105L is very good in light wind for a board its size i can get on foil just as early as guys on the bigger boards. Just want a board that feels more compact I've progressed a lot on the 105L but getting to the point where it feels big just like my 215cm 135L foilboard used to feel like a big board.

Added a 2" step to the original profile making the max thickness 7.3" and the thickness of the foot strap area is 6"(added 1"). Any any guess on volume of this now?
166cm x 72cm

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CAN17 said..

NicoDC said..

CAN17 said..
This was my first cutout to see what i got(sorry no software images). No stepped up nose, not sure if I even need it on a board this big. 166cm x 72cm x 5" thick(115L?). Parallel rails. Less or more rocker?

Looks good but I'd make the nose thicker by adding an inch on the deck side of your rocker template. No need to be greedy with volume in such a compact board. It only benefits comfort and takeoff.

other than that, go for it! Don't overcomplicate the shape and construction. Enjoy experimenting!

Have to agree the nose isn't that much thicker then my wizard 105L. The nose can be sinky with sails bigger then 5m, I'm 155lbs (dry weight without wetsuit gear). Although the strap area is about 5/8" thicker on my design. When I pump the wizard 105L board with my front foot in the strap, back foot out sometimes the nose can dip and catch chop. Extra nose volume would definitely help pump and go considering the nose of this board is a bit shorter then my 105L. As the sail loads up on every pump it puts mast foot pressure on the board causing the nose to sink a bit hopefully a nose with the added volume could bounce it self up above the water line earlier making getting foiling easier in light wind. Maybe it's a pipe dream making a board more compact and increasing light wind performance. I'm kinda being picky the wizard 105L is very good in light wind for a board its size i can get on foil just as early as guys on the bigger boards. Just want a board that feels more compact I've progressed a lot on the 105L but getting to the point where it feels big just like my 215cm 135L foilboard used to feel like a big board.

Added a 2" step to the original profile making the max thickness 7.3" and the thickness of the foot strap area is 6"(added 1"). Any any guess on volume of this now?
166cm x 72cm

Yes, especially for pumping it is important to have enough volume so you can keep it level on the water and focus on the drive, if not it's just inefficient.

ait so the average thickness of the board would be 6 inch (bit of a guess but okay) or 15cm or 1.5dm x 7.2dm width x 16.6dm in length = about 180l. Shaping rails, bevels,. would take about another 10-15% so would be in the region of 160l.

make the rails sharp from the mastrail all the way to the tail. Gives you grip to pump against in the low end. Round rails in the front section for forgiveness.

I think by default shortening a board is gonna have an impact on low end performance, but that doesn't mean it's impossible to find a good board with only a small penalty for your liking.
when on the pocket foil (of 180cm), i just need that extra bit of wind to get me going compared to wider and longer boards. However once up in the air I can jump and carve swell or linkup gusts which is pretty nice

NicoDC's estimate seemed on the high side so I drew it real quick. He was right Straight thick rails really send the volume. The yellow dot is the center of volume.

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utcminusfour said..
NicoDC's estimate seemed on the high side so I drew it real quick. He was right Straight thick rails really send the volume. The yellow dot is the center of volume.

Wow that is a chunky boy. Thanks for the accurate model sketchup UTC!
What software is that?
Think I need to play around with the shape on there. I definitely don't need a 170L board (@155lbs) but interesting that you can squeeze that much volume out of a 5'5" (166cm) long board. If I was 200lbs I would be all over that. I think something under 135L is more reasonable and would be lighter also. I wish I had more time to build 2 boards that 169L version for light wind and Bart's 4'3 for strong wind over 20kts.

How many litres would these cutouts take off the 170L total

Ps would probably need a vac bag to do this board. Looks extremely hard to laminate those sharp edges.

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CAN17 said..

utcminusfour said..
NicoDC's estimate seemed on the high side so I drew it real quick. He was right Straight thick rails really send the volume. The yellow dot is the center of volume.

Wow that is a chunky boy. Thanks for the accurate model sketchup UTC!
What software is that?
Think I need to play around with the shape on there. I definitely don't need a 170L board (@155lbs) but interesting that you can squeeze that much volume out of a 5'5" (166cm) long board. If I was 200lbs I would be all over that. I think something under 135L is more reasonable and would be lighter also. I wish I had more time to build 2 boards that 169L version for light wind and Bart's 4'3 for strong wind over 20kts.

That is Rhino. Pretty intuitive CAD software if you have some CAD experience. You can download an Evaluation copy to play with & run tutorials... I used to use it allot - very versatile.

CAN17,

I taught myself Rhino on the job after training in the fundamentals of CAD at school. It is not rocket science but I would not call it easy to model freeform shapes like boards. I can tell you that I have been exposed to most of the software at this point and Rhino IMO is the most user friendly and is the best value. I still am to this day learning new moves in Rhino. Foils and foilboards have been some of the most challenging things I have modeled and that is after twenty years in the boat design industry. What I did for you took me 15 minutes. But that is because the shape is so basic and I kept it as simple as I could. To get a fully flowing and fair shape like your wizard takes considerably more time and knowledge to create from scratch. That said once you have it built it is easy to edit. If I were starting from the beginning and only was interested in board design I would consider one of the tools specifically for board design because you do not have to learn how to model the surfaces you just have to learn the user interface. You have to spend money and time learning whatever you choose. I keep working with Rhino because unlike the board specific tools I can model anything in Rhino.

I can also tell you that cut outs are a massive time sink, both to model and build. Yes, a bag is a good idea even without the cut outs.

In my own board building projects I have kept the shapes really simple even though I have the skill to draw more complicated shapes I don't have the skills yet to shape them by hand. I view my foiling designs as a very broad brush approach for the purpose of learning the basics of design in this new field. The marketing info we are fed is often conflicting and I am sorting out the BS this way. With each project I am sharpening things up.

If you keep you shapes simple like you have so far you can use basic area times thickness calcs to get a reasonably close volume number just like NicoDC did for you. You can draw on graph paper to do this either to scale or full size by glueing it to your cardboard shapes.

It is hard for me not to want to model this for you (I love this stuff!) but it would not be fair to my customers. I only have so many hours I can spend behind the screen before my eyes say stop. I need to spend that time finishing the work I already have on my plate.

Keep charging and creating mate!

I use Fusion 360 to create my shapes!

One thing to note about stepped decks, which I think is important: volume doesnt actually help you float unless its being pushed underwater (so displacing water). This means that for the stepped nose to actually increase your float your board would be tilted nose down in the water.

Not sure what the effect of that would actually be in practice, maybe NicoDC can tell us as he actually had experience with such a setup.