Hi,

My wife (59kg) has been using a JP Freefoil 115 for a while now and has been having a lot of fun with small sails, and high aspect NP Glide Sereis Foils (S/M Blue), L(HP Red), with sails 4.0m2 to 4.9m2 (occasionally 6.1) depending on wind strength. Great for bobbing around playing in the swell, while I wing.

I've been pondering getting a Windfoil for me (77kg), max 7.2m2, which she can also use on light days to blast in a straight line (with maybe 6.1m2 to 6.7m2). Was going to stay with JP, but the 120L Hydrofoil only takes sails 6.7 max (recc 6.0m2) and the 135 (just 10L more goes to 8.0/8.6L). Seems odd, however the JP 135L just seems too much board for her. The Starboard Freeride 125L seems a better choice for "not too big" (width or volume to carry) but still able to take a decent sized rig. Claimed sail range 5.5~8.5m2.

So the question is, if I do pull the pin on the SB will we be able to run non-reccommended foils on it (and what is other folk's experience with that?). I was thinking about putting the new JP Flight FR on it, although if anyone has experience with NP Glide Series foils on a SB Freeride Foil 125 I'd be keen to hear about those too.

Cheers

k.

Mixing brands always raises two issues, below. All my gear is mixed-brand, so I have to settle the two issues in order to make it all work.

1. Does the top fit into the box? Yes, the board manufacturers play around with different box depths and inside-top profiles, but they are all deep tuttle to start with. You have to check this by actually doing a test fitting. Dual track solves the problem of fit because it is standardized.

2. Balance. The location of the front wing wrt to the footstraps can vary by as much as 15 cm. This is more of an issue with a deep tuttle mount which is not movable. With dual track, you have more adjustability. You can compensate somewhat by having adjustable footstrap positions, and adjustability in the sail mast track. You should test this and measure this, too.

Don't pay too much attention on sail size.
My Hover 122 easily handles 7.4 down to 3.7.
Blocky rails of JP 120 should easily handle 7.7.

Cheers guys, I have both interchangeable DT heads and Foil heads on the NP Glide Series Alu Masts. Either will fit my wife's JP Freefoil 115, but the SB Freeride Foil is only DT so less wiggle room for Foil Mast adjustments, hence part of the original question. I see the SB Supercruiser (one of the recc foils for the SB Freeride Foil Boards) has an 87cm Fuse, while my Glides are just 81cm. The new Flight FR is 90cm, so quite attractive stabilty wise.

Hi segler I have watched your trimming video a number of times, thanks for putting that together, a lot of work indeed.
Hi LeeD using, jybing, tacking a 7.2m2 sail on a normal 120L windsurfing board was never an issue due to board volume in front of the mast, but it seems these foilboards do not have much in front (seems to try to lower swing weight) which my wife observed made it tougher to handle larger sails.

cheers

k.

Having sold both our jp 120 and jp135, because the boards didn't really work with our Starboard foil collection..
i think you're in a danger of making an expensive mistake if you don't choose really carefully

btw I'd never consider putting a 7.7m on the jp 120. I would suggest 6m max..it's not that floaty.
the stbd FreeFoil 125 is much more stable, but I've only used a 7m max on that board.

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RuddeBos said..
Having sold both our jp 120 and jp135, because the boards didn't really work with our Starboard foil collection..
i think you're in a danger of making an expensive mistake if you don't choose really carefully

btw I'd never consider putting a 7.7m on the jp 120. I would suggest 6m max..it's not that floaty.
the stbd FreeFoil 125 is much more stable, but I've only used a 7m max on that board.

What I noticed is that the starboard foil box is further back compared with JP (either that or their rear footstraps are more forward).

The Starboard 2020 FreeFoil 150 on the left has its straps 5cm further forward than the 2020 jp135 on the right.
This is with the Tuttle foil boxes lined up.

For 2020 the jp's footstraps were a little further back on the board than 2019 version... presumably to balance for the NP foils, which are really back footed.

My observations:

A Starboard freeride 1110/500 on a 75 fuselage worked well with the 2019 jp120.

I could use a stbd supercruiser on the jp 120, but needed to bring my rear foot forward in front of the rear straps, at times, to balance up the foil.
i used a sail range of 6- 4.5m with this board.

The jp120 was too front footed with a 1100/330 or 1100/250 wings and 95 plus fuselage

Overall the jp120 seemed to fit the SC best for its character... so would be perfect with the NP foil set up.

The foil balance 2020 jp135 was ok with the SC, but again because they moved the straps back it was ok, but not ideally suited to this foil.
It really needed a freerace foil to set it alight, but the starboard 900/250 or 800/250 wing set on a 95 plus was too difficult to control at times.
it was just about comfortable with those wings on a standard 95 fuselage.

we eventually gave up experimenting, sold the JP's, and moved to Starboard foil boards where it is just plug and play.
My wife was really hesitant to move from the 135 to a 150, but now really likes the added volume in light winds with her 7m sail.
She thought the jp135 was a dog to get up, as it had too much forward V, and this dragged prior to take off.

On a plus point, the JP135 performed better as a Stand up paddle board than the Starboard 150 FreeFoil.

Awesome feedback folks, thanks! Much food for thought.

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RuddeBos said..



The Starboard 2020 FreeFoil 150 on the left has its straps 5cm further forward than the 2020 jp135 on the right.
This is with the Tuttle foil boxes lined up.

For 2020 the jp's footstraps were a little further back on the board than 2019 version... presumably to balance for the NP foils, which are really back footed.

My observations:

A Starboard freeride 1110/500 on a 75 fuselage worked well with the 2019 jp120.

I could use a stbd supercruiser on the jp 120, but needed to bring my rear foot forward in front of the rear straps, at times, to balance up the foil.
i used a sail range of 6- 4.5m with this board.

The jp120 was too front footed with a 1100/330 or 1100/250 wings and 95 plus fuselage

Overall the jp120 seemed to fit the SC best for its character... so would be perfect with the NP foil set up.

The foil balance 2020 jp135 was ok with the SC, but again because they moved the straps back it was ok, but not ideally suited to this foil.
It really needed a freerace foil to set it alight, but the starboard 900/250 or 800/250 wing set on a 95 plus was too difficult to control at times.
it was just about comfortable with those wings on a standard 95 fuselage.

we eventually gave up experimenting, sold the JP's, and moved to Starboard foil boards where it is just plug and play.
My wife was really hesitant to move from the 135 to a 150, but now really likes the added volume in light winds with her 7m sail.
She thought the jp135 was a dog to get up, as it had too much forward V, and this dragged prior to take off.

On a plus point, the JP135 performed better as a Stand up paddle board than the Starboard 150 FreeFoil.

Thanks for taking the trouble! Looks like the only reason why windsurf companies persist with tuttle is so that you buy their foil as well.

Most 120 liter boards float.
Any windsurf board of 120 can handle an 8.0.
My 100 liter Tabou Speedster is rated to 7.8.

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LeeD said..
Most 120 liter boards float.
Any windsurf board of 120 can handle an 8.0.
My 100 liter Tabou Speedster is rated to 7.8.

All boards float, LeeD. Sorry, I couldn't resist.

Sure, no problem.
120 on a slalom board holds 9 meter sails.
120 on a freeride, maybe 7.5.
So why shouldn't, 120 foil, hold at least a 7.7?

Add in the static weight of all the foiling stuff below the water.
Rather than a fin which weighs grams

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LeeD said..
Sure, no problem.
120 on a slalom board holds 9 meter sails.
120 on a freeride, maybe 7.5.
So why shouldn't, 120 foil, hold at least a 7.7?

It's a good question, I think (with my limited experience of foil boards and admittedly not as old as LeeD, but I have been a Windsurfer for 30+ years) it's about volume distribution. My JP111 FSW e.g. sinks quite readily at the front compared to my RRD 96L FSW. It appears to me from my wife's JP Freefoil 115L that the volume in fornt of the mast is not that great, nor does it extend for very long. JP max stated sail size for the 115L is 6.7m2 but recc. is 5.8m2. My wife pretty much agrees with that.

Anyway veering back on topic, seems there are mixed feelings on what upper sail limit a JP120 Foilboard can take (vs SB 125); vs JP135L and SB150L. It's all positive feedback, there will always be differences of opinion and that's just healthy discussion. Cheers all.

k.

Volume has relatively little to do with it, width is the biggest factor for sail size on a foil board.

I have a SB 125 paired with SS i76. Im 85kg and use sails from 5.0 to 7.8 with this setup. For me the SB125 carries big sails with no issues. Found it very easy to tack with big sails without the nose sinking.

I have had multiple versions of the JP 135, an F-One 120 (78 wide) and 135 (85 wide) and sailed the starboard 125.

Regarding the foils, I think all is said, JP are the more alround boards and can handle a wide variety of foils, the SB work best with SB due to the super advanced strap placement relative to the finbox.

Regarding sail sizes, I would take the SB sail size recommendations with a pinch of salt. Me personally wouldnt run larger than 7.0 on a ~120L foilboard, so the recommended range of the JP 120 seems a lot more realistic to me. I wouldnt even run mich bigger than 8.0 (maybe 8.5) on the JP 135, let alone on a 76 wide foilboard. My rule of thumb is width in cm / 10 for max sail size (so 7.6 for 76cm SB125), and take half a m off for the comfortable max (7.1 for 76cm)

Starboard has a tendency to exaggerate the usable sailrange of their boards in general btw.

The missing width mostly results in back pain during upwind sailing (which even with 7.0 on a 78 wide is already a problem), and in the extreme sail sizes (8.0 and up) you'd be massively reducing a sails range of use, both in early planing and high end control.

The exception to the rule is really high aspect foiling sails, I've found with those you can go a little larger and still be comfortable because of the small boom.

I dont know why you'd think the 135 is "too much board for her", its a perfect (fast)freeride size for sails 5.0-8.0 and we used it a lot for teaching & introductory clinics to foiling at our school even for kids.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I have had multiple versions of the JP 135, an F-One 120 (78 wide) and 135 (85 wide) and sailed the starboard 125.

Regarding the foils, I think all is said, JP are the more alround boards and can handle a wide variety of foils, the SB work best with SB due to the super advanced strap placement relative to the finbox.

Regarding sail sizes, I would take the SB sail size recommendations with a pinch of salt. Me personally wouldnt run larger than 7.0 on a ~120L foilboard, so the recommended range of the JP 120 seems a lot more realistic to me. I wouldnt even run mich bigger than 8.0 (maybe 8.5) on the JP 135, let alone on a 76 wide foilboard. My rule of thumb is width in cm / 10 for max sail size (so 7.6 for 76cm SB125), and take half a m off for the comfortable max (7.1 for 76cm)

Starboard has a tendency to exaggerate the usable sailrange of their boards in general btw.

The missing width mostly results in back pain during upwind sailing (which even with 7.0 on a 78 wide is already a problem), and in the extreme sail sizes (8.0 and up) you'd be massively reducing a sails range of use, both in early planing and high end control.

The exception to the rule is really high aspect foiling sails, I've found with those you can go a little larger and still be comfortable because of the small boom.

I dont know why you'd think the 135 is "too much board for her", its a perfect (fast)freeride size for sails 5.0-8.0 and we used it a lot for teaching & introductory clinics to foiling at our school even for kids.

Do you think there's a formula for length? For example, I've got a Wizard 103. It's 76 cm wide and only 153 cm long. It's rated for 3-5 m sails and IMO that's spot on. I use it with a 4.8 and I don't see it working well with anything bigger (OTOH... the footstraps are quite inboard, so it's more like the equivalent of a 70 cm wide board).

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Faff said..

WhiteofHeart said..
I have had multiple versions of the JP 135, an F-One 120 (78 wide) and 135 (85 wide) and sailed the starboard 125.

Regarding the foils, I think all is said, JP are the more alround boards and can handle a wide variety of foils, the SB work best with SB due to the super advanced strap placement relative to the finbox.

Regarding sail sizes, I would take the SB sail size recommendations with a pinch of salt. Me personally wouldnt run larger than 7.0 on a ~120L foilboard, so the recommended range of the JP 120 seems a lot more realistic to me. I wouldnt even run mich bigger than 8.0 (maybe 8.5) on the JP 135, let alone on a 76 wide foilboard. My rule of thumb is width in cm / 10 for max sail size (so 7.6 for 76cm SB125), and take half a m off for the comfortable max (7.1 for 76cm)

Starboard has a tendency to exaggerate the usable sailrange of their boards in general btw.

The missing width mostly results in back pain during upwind sailing (which even with 7.0 on a 78 wide is already a problem), and in the extreme sail sizes (8.0 and up) you'd be massively reducing a sails range of use, both in early planing and high end control.

The exception to the rule is really high aspect foiling sails, I've found with those you can go a little larger and still be comfortable because of the small boom.

I dont know why you'd think the 135 is "too much board for her", its a perfect (fast)freeride size for sails 5.0-8.0 and we used it a lot for teaching & introductory clinics to foiling at our school even for kids.

Do you think there's a formula for length? For example, I've got a Wizard 103. It's 76 cm wide and only 153 cm long. It's rated for 3-5 m sails and IMO that's spot on. I use it with a 4.8 and I don't see it working well with anything bigger (OTOH... the footstraps are quite inboard, so it's more like the equivalent of a 70 cm wide board).

Haha, good question! I think there should be a formula for length. Honestly, my 105L is 180x72, and I dont like sails bigger than 5.0 on it. 5.7 maybe, but definately not 6.5 like my width formula would suggest. The sail just becomes too heavy and pushes the nose down too much to pump effectively. I think for a 72cm x 200cm board it would be a different story.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I have had multiple versions of the JP 135, an F-One 120 (78 wide) and 135 (85 wide) and sailed the starboard 125.

Regarding the foils, I think all is said, JP are the more alround boards and can handle a wide variety of foils, the SB work best with SB due to the super advanced strap placement relative to the finbox.

Regarding sail sizes, I would take the SB sail size recommendations with a pinch of salt. Me personally wouldnt run larger than 7.0 on a ~120L foilboard, so the recommended range of the JP 120 seems a lot more realistic to me. I wouldnt even run mich bigger than 8.0 (maybe 8.5) on the JP 135, let alone on a 76 wide foilboard. My rule of thumb is width in cm / 10 for max sail size (so 7.6 for 76cm SB125), and take half a m off for the comfortable max (7.1 for 76cm)

Starboard has a tendency to exaggerate the usable sailrange of their boards in general btw.

The missing width mostly results in back pain during upwind sailing (which even with 7.0 on a 78 wide is already a problem), and in the extreme sail sizes (8.0 and up) you'd be massively reducing a sails range of use, both in early planing and high end control.

The exception to the rule is really high aspect foiling sails, I've found with those you can go a little larger and still be comfortable because of the small boom.

I dont know why you'd think the 135 is "too much board for her", its a perfect (fast)freeride size for sails 5.0-8.0 and we used it a lot for teaching & introductory clinics to foiling at our school even for kids.

Thanks WhiteofHeart, appreciate your own feedback on Sails Sizes on SB vs JP.

The reason I think (just an opinion really) that the JP135 is "too much board for her" is two fold

(i) if JP are (more) correct on max sail sizes than SB, then the 5.5-8.0 (ideal) and 4.5-8.6 (recc) sail sizes are simply not sizes she (at 58kg) would ever contemplate using, not even close. She used to use a 7.2m2 NP Ryde on a JP 120L board when it was enough wind to plane (and jibe it really well I might add) but perched on a foil in lighter wind, I don't see her enjoying uphauling it and pumping it; especially after she has been bobbing around on the JP Freefoil 115 with an HP Glide L(15) and a 4.9m sail (and loving it for the small size and light weight). Just looking for a slightly bigger option (for super light foil days for her ... and also for normal days me :-)) I guess; and

(ii) The sheer size of her small frame handling a JP135 at 85cm wide and 8.4kg vs 76cm & 8.05kg for the SB125, into the water, with foil. Beast.

k.

I can't imagine why she would ever choose a 7+ sail if she doesn't like big sails.
Out of well over 30 foilers here in Berkeley, the 2 earliest foilers are... Eric, a top Cal Cup racer on Starboard 177, 1000 wing, and NP 9.0 foil race sail...at 165 lbs........and Quintin, 155 lbs., on 105 Slingshot and Moses 1550 with a 5.3 Gaastra wave sail.
Talking sub 10 in the biggest gusts, average in the 7 range of breeze.