Ok brains trust, help me out here (or at least confirm my thoughts).

At the moment I've got a Patrik 1100 cm2, 72cm wide front wing. I typically use this under an M_Oz custom foil board with anything from 3.7 to 5.0 wave sails. I don't like going in straight lines (BaF), and am getting much better at going deep downwind and riding wind-waves.

As I am getting better at windfoiling and make >50% of gybes on flat water (ocean is harder), I now seem to be regressing a bit when it comes to foiling out and then crashing. I'm putting this down to wanting to go faster, or ending up going faster, especially when going downwind in strong winds or larger swells. It then becomes quite a fight to overcome the additional lift. If I consciously slow down, then I can sail all day with no issues, but tootling around at 12 - 14 knots boat speed seems to be crawling. Putting more weight on the rig to keep the board down when going faster seems to come with sheeting in more, which only pushes the speed up again.

Do I have a technique or setup problem, or is the answer a faster foil? The 1100 cm2 one I've gotten up to 21 knots, but that was a very short peak followed by a spectacular crash. Normal max speed I can get it to is circa 19 knots, and that's hard to keep down. Stabilizer is set to minimum lift position.

Considering going to the 900 cm2, 99cm span foil. Am I trying to fix skill or setup issues by buying something new, or is this a natural progression? Maybe with a faster foil I'll just crash more spectacularly?

did you try and move the sail mast base a little bit more forward?

The board is a very short design, so that it's quick to turn which I like. The mast base is only 2-4cm from the front end, so there isn't much room to go further forward. Going forward to that position did help.I'm not looking for outright speed, just less lift so can do turns at greater speed without fighting to stay in the water.

FWIW,
I had the same problem with controlling over foiling at speed, especially in swell/big chop. The larger wing had more tendency to follow the wave surface if the foil wasn't down deep. A smaller surface are wing helps that a lot. It's easier to keep it lower and doesn't lift as much. I went from a 1400 to 700 cm2. My fastest jibe at speed is 23 knots with a 3.0 sail. Gotta commit, but it's doable. Also tilting the board will also bring the nose down when things get dicey.

Every wing has its sweet spot speed. Obviously larger wing are ment for slower foiling. Most wing over 1000 are for slow cruising, though some can be handled at 20kt depending on your setup and tuning. Going for smaller is as getting on less volume when windsurfing. But once in a while you'll feel the need to get on a large wing...

When I was Foiling in the ocean I tended to breach so I got a 105 cm mast, game changer, partly mental as you feel more secure with the extra height but allows for level flight without breaching.
I currently foil with my sail mast base as far forward as possible most of the time, it actually helps getting going in light wind also. Put your front straps forward also to keep the board down.

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Dip916 said..
Ok brains trust, help me out here (or at least confirm my thoughts).

At the moment I've got a Patrik 1100 cm2, 72cm wide front wing. I typically use this under an M_Oz custom foil board with anything from 3.7 to 5.0 wave sails. I don't like going in straight lines (BaF), and am getting much better at going deep downwind and riding wind-waves.

As I am getting better at windfoiling and make >50% of gybes on flat water (ocean is harder), I now seem to be regressing a bit when it comes to foiling out and then crashing. I'm putting this down to wanting to go faster, or ending up going faster, especially when going downwind in strong winds or larger swells. It then becomes quite a fight to overcome the additional lift. If I consciously slow down, then I can sail all day with no issues, but tootling around at 12 - 14 knots boat speed seems to be crawling. Putting more weight on the rig to keep the board down when going faster seems to come with sheeting in more, which only pushes the speed up again.

Do I have a technique or setup problem, or is the answer a faster foil? The 1100 cm2 one I've gotten up to 21 knots, but that was a very short peak followed by a spectacular crash. Normal max speed I can get it to is circa 19 knots, and that's hard to keep down. Stabilizer is set to minimum lift position.

Considering going to the 900 cm2, 99cm span foil. Am I trying to fix skill or setup issues by buying something new, or is this a natural progression? Maybe with a faster foil I'll just crash more spectacularly?

You'll enjoy a smaller faster, better glide wing.

I think the Simmer 920 will fit your setup or perhaps Patrik has the same/similar ??

Have a go on mine next time

As mentioned smaller/higher aspect foil will give you the extra speed & glide if that's what you're looking for.

But depending on what you're trying to do a smaller foil may not be the go. If you're looking to "ride" the swells as opposed to hitting mack speed by carving down them then a larger foil that matches the wave speed is a valid option.

Check out the video of GWAN in this post, obviously the guy has killer skills but he's also taking advantage of a larger foil that matches what he's trying to do.

Horses for courses for sure.

www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Gwarn-Baja-Swellstyle?page=1#19

Thanks everyone,

I think I'll add a 900 cm2 foil to my kit. 700 is too small I think, and I'm not after max speed. I'm also thinking that with a small/short board and 90kg rider, the 700 might be a struggle to get going. I do prefer to use the smallest sail possible, and don't really want to go up sail sizes too much just to get off the water.
I'll keep the 1100 cm2 foil for the light days (it works well with 5.0 and 5.6m2 sails), and for I want a session of riding swells rather than carving across or through them.

I can now refer my wife to the consensus here that I need (not want) another foil.

F4 GP 540 Wahoo - A Great Single Foil Option

Modern Small foils are f@&#ing amazing.
F4 sell this 540 as a downwind sup foil! Admittedly for better than novice big swell riders but still gives you an idea of the flexibility.
I did 30kts "by accident" on mine last weekend.

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Dip916 said..
Thanks everyone,

I think I'll add a 900 cm2 foil to my kit. 700 is too small I think, and I'm not after max speed. I'm also thinking that with a small/short board and 90kg rider, the 700 might be a struggle to get going. I do prefer to use the smallest sail possible, and don't really want to go up sail sizes too much just to get off the water.
I'll keep the 1100 cm2 foil for the light days (it works well with 5.0 and 5.6m2 sails), and for I want a session of riding swells rather than carving across or through them.

I can now refer my wife to the consensus here that I need (not want) another foil.

900 mm span X 900 m2 surface area seems to be a sweat spot for a one foil does all solution. A good compromise between speed, glide, maneuver ability and take off.

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berowne said..
F4 GP 540 Wahoo - A Great Single Foil Option

how big the sail you were using?

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Dip916 said..

I can now refer my wife to the consensus here that I need (not want) another foil.

Tell her it's "safety issue". Works for me

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powersloshin said..

berowne said..
F4 GP 540 Wahoo - A Great Single Foil Option

how big the sail you were using?

6m to 9m

Bought the Patrik 900 cm2 today.

Went out in an extremely gusty NW on the river. Definitely my go-to foil now. Way more "slippery", but also easy to pump up to foiling. No negatives with turning, though I'm still getting used to going faster. Used with a 3.7 m2 sail and spent half my time overpowered and half underpowered.

Congrat's. 3.7m is pretty small but glad you got to ride a new foil!

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Dip916 said..
Bought the Patrik 900 cm2 today.

Went out in an extremely gusty NW on the river. Definitely my go-to foil now. Way more "slippery", but also easy to pump up to foiling. No negatives with turning, though I'm still getting used to going faster. Used with a 3.7 m2 sail and spent half my time overpowered and half underpowered.

The patrik 900s are frikkin great front wings. I was using one when others were on SuperCruisers, 1700cm area. 0.5-1.0 more sail for me and I was 30 kegs more too. Now using 650 as the go to front but the 900 comes back and is so much fun carving gybes and little swell rides. Also quick too.

Getting more used to it. Overall better, but definitely not as quick to turn. The 1100 could turn on a dime.
The 900 is a lot easier to gybe though. Holds a glide a lot longer and gives more time to bring the sail around and get feet swapped over.

The 3.7 is my favourite foiling sail ??. The smaller the better. A 5.0 seems big after a lot of sessions on 3.7 & 4.2m sails.

Small wings (550cm2) are a little harder to gybe, especially in big swells.
You have to gybe a fairly big arc at speed to maintain lift - which is fine on the inside where it's flatter but can be tricky running down 2m faces offshore.
A couple of crashes in the outside turns yesterday below

Also the small wing doesn't fly upwind quite as well and is more affected by weed.
However everyone should try one - you can crank superfun full-speed carves downwind with less fear of exploding

Simmer 550cm2 Simmer Blacktip Legacy 3.4
Axis Speed 205cm2 stab

SSW 25-28 knots