I'm fairly comfortable with a wing and foil. Something about the sail is very interesting to me. With very little windsurfing experience, only big boards sub planning although I could water start and be hooked in with some power, I'm wondering how far my winging experience could take me towards wind foiling and is it worth it. I have a chance to buy a 2017 Wizard 125. Thanks for any info.

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With your wing foiling experience, stable flight should be a snack. Make sure you use a 90cm fuselage and the same sail size as the wing size you would use. The front wing and stabilizer should be the same. Transitions will be different and may take some time.

What is winging not giving you that you feel windfoiling will?

The answer is no. Way too much fun. Not worth it.

I think if you dont windsurf already , windfoil adds a lot of complications, you need a lot more gear and accessories. Maybe see if you can try someones equipment first

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powersloshin said..
I think if you dont windsurf already , windfoil adds a lot of complications, you need a lot more gear and accessories. Maybe see if you can try someones equipment first

Agree, while I have not winged, have watched it being taught, windfoiling is a lot more technically difficult both in setting up the kit and actually foiling, especially if you have never gotten a windsurfing board planing, do yourself a favor and get a lesson first.

1. It will go a long way. You may find it strange at first that the sail is pinned to the board via the u-joint, though. And, the power in the sail will vary pitch more than you might be accustomed to. On the plus side, the rig becomes the third leg of a tripod making balancing and moving around on the board so much easier. For the life of me, seeing some of my winging friends in switch stance all the time just feels awkward and switching sides just seems to much trouble for them.

2. I see a few things compared to my wing buddies especially in lighter winds. Waiting for a gust to get going is so much easier because our boards' greater volume. There isn't quite the rush to reduce volume the way it is in the winging world. The speed - generally we just are faster especially in lighter winds and you are willing to use a bigger sail and smaller wing. It's a cool feeling to lock in when the winds are only 10-15, pushing like mad and then bending into a hard carving jibe. I'm also more comfortable straying from the beach because I'm not worried about the wind dying or having a bladder go bad. I can foil jibe in pretty low wind but very good wingers can stay flying just a touch better when things are going really light.

We don't get quite the same range from our gear. It takes three sails to cover what two wings will and the boards are definitely bigger (plus mast, boom, etc). The good news is that a decent used freeride or wave sail will suffice in the smaller sizes so you aren't having to drop major coin on the latest iteration of wing design. On the plus side, we usually do with a fewer number of foil wings and stabs than many wingers.

Like fraternal twins, they are very similar but not exactly the same. You can have fun doing either. Each does offer something and it depends on your local conditions and what style fits you.

Different physics.

For wingfoiling (and kitefoiling) you have two points of downforce (two feet) to control and board and the foil's pitch. This makes it pretty easy, relatively, to set things up and foil. The porpoising (pitching up and down all the time) is pretty much absent.

For windfoiling you have three points of downforce, the third one being the sail mast base. Because of this everything is different. Geometry of board and foil, tuning and balancing, and long learning curve. The sail being connected to the board changes everything, and I mean EVERYTHING. Porpoising is a fact of life until you get the hang of it. Sail sheeting, weight, and base position get into the act big time and has a huge effect on pitch control. It is a completely different sport.

Yesterday I was out at Roosevelt on the Columbia in light winds. Two wingers were also out. They had the ability to get up onto the foil sooner. Their wings provide a lot of UP force, like a kite. With my sail, with only horizontal force, I had to pump to get going, but once up I had double their speed.

You could waterstart, but weren't planing? I learned to wing on my Wizard 125 and I think you'd have no problem learning to windfoil on one given your winging experience. I still windfoil in light wind as it's way more efficient than winging. Windsurf/foil sails are a huge hassle to cart around compared to wings. The costs add up for masts, extensions, universals and all that stuff. If you can get a rig cheap than it may be worth it.

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Windbot said..Windsurf/foil sails are a huge hassle to cart around compared to wings. The costs add up for masts, extensions, universals and all that stuff. If you can get a rig cheap than it may be worth it.

Doubt winging is cheaper - how long do wings last before they're blown out either by waves, being over-powered or bladder failures?
Some reports say about 800kms.

I've done about 40,000 km on foil in 4.5 years - I'm lucky to be able to upgrade kit fairly often (thanks Jesper ), but reckon could've got by on a couple of sails (Simmer Blacktips are built for Hookipa ) and 1 mast, boom, extension etc.

Open to be proven wrong...

If you have the basics of windsurfing, thats all you should need to start foiling IMO. As soon as you leave the water, very little of windsurfing applies anymore anyway. Completely different. With a big enough wing, you don't even need to hit planing speed to fly.

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azymuth said..
Doubt winging is cheaper - how long do wings last before they're blown out either by waves, being over-powered or bladder failures?
Some reports say about 800kms.

Bladder failures are quite common .. for wingers who hang their wings up to dry in a way that allows the bladder to twist.

My wife just had to replace her first wing. She had about 100 sessions over 2 years on it, in 12-30 knots averages. The diagnosis was that the damage she saw was unusual, and probably caused by under-inflation (the pump indicator is low). There's a warranty claim filed, but it's unlikely to lead anywhere.

Typical windsurf sails usually need the first panel replacements after about 100 sessions because the material gets too weak. For most sails, the big panels in the boom area fail first, and they can last another 100 sessions with 2-3 panels being replaced over time. But sails built very light (some freestyle sails) that have lighter material in the top can start disintegrating from the top, and would need most panels replaced soon after. All that is from a few different brands I used over time (Gaastra, North, Severne, Loft). Some brands like Ezzy may well last longer.

Masts and booms have to be replaced less often than sails, if you're lucky with breakage. If you're really into going fast and get large races sails for the foil, that may not hold up, since race masts can break a lot more. One of our local racers had three different 490 masts break last year.

Repairs of damage from crashes and hitting stuff are much easier for wings than for sails (according to my wife, who has repaired both).

If you wing or windfoil a lot but don't race, and use your gear until it needs to be replaced, you probably end up spending comparable amounts for gear replacement over time, and maybe a bit more for winging. On the other hand, if you don't have access to sail repair, then using sails may be more expensive.

In contrast, the startup cost will be higher if you buy new gear. Wings are a bit more expensive than sails, but have a bigger range so you can get out more often with just one or two. Even with just one sail, you'll need to buy a mast, boom, extension, mast foot, and usually a harness. Overall, you'll easily spend 2-3x as much for windfoiling. With used gear, the difference may be smaller, but that depends a lot on what you can get locally.

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eabmoto said..
I'm wondering how far my winging experience could take me towards wind foiling and is it worth it.

A lot of good windsurfers started windfoiling (since they had the sails etc.), later tried winging, and switched to winging 100%.

But if you are getting bored of winging, and/or just want some foiling that can be a lot more challenging, then trying windfoiling may be worth it. The same if you think that winging is too slow - although I have not yet met anyone who tried winging and said that. I think winging is usually slow by choice (once past the beginner stage). I have been on the water windfoiling when there were wingers out that were definitely faster than I was. I'm not fast windfoiling, and the fast wingers are the exception, but it depends a lot on the gear they are using, their skills, and whether they want to go fast or rather have fun playing with chop and swell.

The whole spectrum of answers. That's what I expected. The deterioration of the wings is a big part of what I was trying to get away from. I do like completely getting rid of the wing to ride swell. I believe wind foiling would be different but I'd be able to figure it out but it may not be worth starting over AGAIN with more gear and learning something new. I need to try it. Maybe I can rent gear. Someone mentioned the Columbia river, I spend a lot of time there every summer kiting. now winging.

Stick to the kite

In reference to sails and having to replace panels, I have been using Aerotech Freespeed sails with 100% X-ply for 7 years, with several 6 years old sails now (sold the heavier built one from 7 years ago) have landed on the panels with my hands and knees many times, and hook too but not any more, did punch a hole through one sail with my hook (easy repair with Gorilla tape), but no panels have needed replacing, 100% X-ply makes a big difference. The main mast I use is a 460 100% carbon Z-Speed, got it used 5 years ago $130 US, still working great, the carbon boom I use Maui Windsurfing I also got used 5 years ago for $130 also still working great. My AFS 100% carbon foil has taken a beating and is still working great, and my Goya Bolt 135 is also doing very good after some mods (added deck padding and a sail mast base shim to protect the deck from mast damage). So far I have not replaced any equipment due to damage in 7 years of windsurfing and windfoiling, so way ahead of winging.

How many sessions per year? How many sails do you use?

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boardsurfr said..
How many sessions per year? How many sails do you use?

Do not count my sessions, sorry, live in Florida so foil year round most every chance I get. Have 5 sails, but been only using two since my lesson with Andy, 5.8 and 4.5, before the lesson I used 8.0 and 7.2 most of the time, used to use 9.0 in light wind but no more. I weighed between 84-87 kg over the time I have owned the sails, so when I land on the sail with hands and/or knees sail is taking a hit!

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eabmoto said..
I need to try it. Maybe I can rent gear. Someone mentioned the Columbia river, I spend a lot of time there every summer kiting. now winging.

If you go to the Gorge, go to the Event Site in Hood River. There are several rental places with gear ready to go. You need to walk the gear probably 100 yards from the rental place. Expect to spend $60 for 2 hours for all the gear. Be ready to be converted into a real sailor and see the light

Hi
I would recommend beginning by the windfoiling way which is closer to wingfoiling, this is big wings and small sails, having as short as possible distance from the sail mast base to your feet in order to reduce the influence of the third point of pressure, the mast base. Besides, the sails can be wave sails which stronger and cheaper than big formula sails. Maybe you could use the same foil you have for wingfoiling, if it's not huge. I use 4,7 or 5,3 sails for 10-15knots and a 1600 cm2 front wing. I weigh 70 kg.

IMO the easiest way to control the weight of the rig is strapless. It allows you to change your weight position immediately for avoiding breaching or getting upwind/ downwind, etc

Cheers.

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eabmoto said..
The whole spectrum of answers. That's what I expected. The deterioration of the wings is a big part of what I was trying to get away from. I do like completely getting rid of the wing to ride swell. I believe wind foiling would be different but I'd be able to figure it out but it may not be worth starting over AGAIN with more gear and learning something new. I need to try it. Maybe I can rent gear. Someone mentioned the Columbia river, I spend a lot of time there every summer kiting. now winging.

Wings are basically kites, yes? I think i fixed only one punctured bladder in my ten years of kiting. I did shred a panel when i tomahawked my kite into the water while learning that needed repair. Maybe some sail here and there but overall the kites were very durable and these were kites circa from the first decade of this century.

Sounds like bladders and seams are failing at a higher rate on wings. Wonder if it's all the pumping?

Getting to your question. As much as i love windfoil. I would say stick to wing, but i hope you prove me wrong :)

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thedoor said..

Sounds like bladders and seams are failing at a higher rate on wings. Wonder if it's all the pumping?

From all the falling and foil/stab edges in my observation. Seen a wing just brush against an Armstrong stab and go pffft. People aren't taking tumbles on top of kites the way they do on wings, either. As well, canopies seem to take some abuse on beaches from laying around and grinding into the sand and dirt.

Been windfoiling since 2016, now wingfoiling since 2020. The latter is way way way more fun. No reason to be windfoiling unless you want to race. For freestyle and manoeuvrable style surfing, winging is just the 4 times as good version of windfoiling.

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WhiteofHeart said..
Been windfoiling since 2016, now wingfoiling since 2020. The latter is way way way more fun. No reason to be windfoiling unless you want to race. For freestyle and manoeuvrable style surfing, winging is just the 4 times as good version of windfoiling.

I disagree
It all depends on your level. From what I see locally out of a 100 or so non-pro foilers (most are wingers) the best windfoilers are riding waves just as rad and having as much fun as the best wingers.
And downwinding big swells, I reckon we probably carve harder

Sure there's vids where young pro wingers rip on tiny boards.
Imagine if Jaeger or Brawzinho learned how to windfoil

Wind strength is also a factor. If you sail in a location with a lot of really light wind, windfoiling is the way to go. Last week the wind was very iffy at one of my spots. Four wind foilers were able to sail out of the wind shadow and have a nice session. One one winger was able to make it out there but didn't last long (wind can shut at any time so other wingers didn't try, I guess). A kiter spent over an hour trying to launch his monster kite but ended up quitting (he even tried to swim some and launch from the water).

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azymuth said..

WhiteofHeart said..
Been windfoiling since 2016, now wingfoiling since 2020. The latter is way way way more fun. No reason to be windfoiling unless you want to race. For freestyle and manoeuvrable style surfing, winging is just the 4 times as good version of windfoiling.

I disagree
It all depends on your level. From what I see locally out of a 100 or so non-pro foilers (most are wingers) the best windfoilers are riding waves just as rad and having as much fun as the best wingers.
And downwinding big swells, I reckon we probably carve harder

Sure there's vids where young pro wingers rip on tiny boards.
Imagine if Jaeger or Brawzinho learned how to windfoil

Its an interesting discussion. The reason I say winging is the better version of windfoiling for manouevre oriented sailing is because its in a lot of ways very similar. It might be in windfoiling one can carve harder because of the sails counterweight, but wingfoil foils are getting gradually shorter with smaller fuselages and stabs and that really opens up performance on that front.

Wingfoiling has the big pro of 100% depower and weightlessness of the rig if you hold the flagging handle. Also the ease at which can be tacked just blows my mind. Generally the average sailor can also ride a way smaller board wingfoiling, a 5.0 60-75L board is within reqch for anyone. Add the lofty jumps and soft landings and easy (approachable for the average sailor) freestyle rotations and in my mind its just the way to go!

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WhiteofHeart said..
Been windfoiling since 2016, now wingfoiling since 2020. The latter is way way way more fun. No reason to be windfoiling unless you want to race. For freestyle and manoeuvrable style surfing, winging is just the 4 times as good version of windfoiling.

What I find appealing at wingfoil is the simplicity and compactness of the gear. No big and heavy boards, sails, masts, etc. This is a big plus IMHO and probably one of the key reasons why the sport is growing so quickly.

What I find appealing at windfoil is the ability to fly 1-2 knots earlier than wingfoil, combined with the performance and speed it provides. Plus, a free fitness training with race gear.

Kitefoil is on another planet, but it really requires a suitable spot to lift and land the kite, plus it's a bit riskier in case of unstable wind or rider error (kite falling into the water).

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WhiteofHeart said..

azymuth said..

WhiteofHeart said..
Been windfoiling since 2016, now wingfoiling since 2020. The latter is way way way more fun. No reason to be windfoiling unless you want to race. For freestyle and manoeuvrable style surfing, winging is just the 4 times as good version of windfoiling.

I disagree
It all depends on your level. From what I see locally out of a 100 or so non-pro foilers (most are wingers) the best windfoilers are riding waves just as rad and having as much fun as the best wingers.
And downwinding big swells, I reckon we probably carve harder

Sure there's vids where young pro wingers rip on tiny boards.
Imagine if Jaeger or Brawzinho learned how to windfoil

Its an interesting discussion. The reason I say winging is the better version of windfoiling for manouevre oriented sailing is because its in a lot of ways very similar. It might be in windfoiling one can carve harder because of the sails counterweight, but wingfoil foils are getting gradually shorter with smaller fuselages and stabs and that really opens up performance on that front.

Wingfoiling has the big pro of 100% depower and weightlessness of the rig if you hold the flagging handle. Also the ease at which can be tacked just blows my mind. Generally the average sailor can also ride a way smaller board wingfoiling, a 5.0 60-75L board is within reqch for anyone. Add the lofty jumps and soft landings and easy (approachable for the average sailor) freestyle rotations and in my mind its just the way to go!

Fair points

The biggest fact on wing foil vs. wind foil is this, wind drops under 10 kn and most if not all wingers disappear, once in a while you see one or two on 7-8 m2 wings but most don't like that,
while I'm still flying around on 4.2 or 5.1 m2 sail... In Miami and even in Cabarete Dr, that doubles my time on water. As for fun/ performance factor, basic wind foiling is relatively easy, but advanced stuff even air jibes are hard. I keep upgrading my gear, tunning, etc and having a blast winfoiling. After 6 frastrating sessions on new custom TILLO 172x80 cm, finally yesterday I was able to ride it as good as my previous board(206x91cm), in many ways much more fun.

My perception is that it seems easier to complete a foiling jibe on a wing vs. on a windfoil? And also foiling tacks are doable on wing, whereas on windfoil those aren't possible for us mere mortals (Balz Muller and a few selected IQ foilers).

Having this in mind, a decent winger will be able to foil also under 10 kt (with proper technique and gear), because they've got easier means to stay up on the foil (compared to windfoil).

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FormuIa said..
My perception is that it seems easier to complete a foiling jibe on a wing vs. on a windfoil? And also foiling tacks are doable on wing, whereas on windfoil those aren't possible for us mere mortals (Balz Muller and a few selected IQ foilers).

Having this in mind, a decent winger will be able to foil also under 10 kt (with proper technique and gear), because they've got easier means to stay up on the foil (compared to windfoil).

Just because they can foil under 10 kn, doesn't mean they do it or think it's fun, that was my point... Time and time again at local spot, where now it's 70% wing foilers, if wind drops, they pack their cars and leave and they definitely swim if it under 5 kn.