I've got into windfoiling after a long lay off from windsurfing and I'm surprised to see there is load of new sail manufacturers I've never heard of: Challenger sails, Patrik, Point-7 (sorry if these are all euro brands not available worldwide) as well as the usual Duotone (previously north I've discovered), Goya, Severne, Neilpryde, Ezzy etc. (I used to like Sailworks sails but these are not readily available in the UK anymore)
I'm after a larger sail for my local lake (current largest size is 6.5m) and I haven't a clue where to start!!

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TroyMcClure said..
I've got into windfoiling after a long lay off from windsurfing and I'm surprised to see there is load of new sail manufacturers I've never heard of: Challenger sails, Patrik, Point-7 (sorry if these are all euro brands not available worldwide) as well as the usual Duotone (previously north I've discovered), Goya, Severne, Neilpryde, Ezzy etc. (I used to like Sailworks sails but these are not readily available in the UK anymore)
I'm after a larger sail for my local lake (current largest size is 6.5m) and I haven't a clue where to start!!

All I can tell you is the severne ones are good, cause that's all I've sailed. They have three foil offerings:

the foil glide (tight luff pocket/cambered free ride foiling) kinda the foil equivalent of a severne turbo

the hyper glide 4 (big luff pocket/cambered foil slalom race sail)

and the HGO (big luff pocket/tall cambered course racing sail)

which one to choose I guess is down to what kind of foiling you want to do with it? All of them are foil orientated, with a tighter leech. And all of them come in an 8m (and with the exception of the foil glide, bigger). im sure the other sail manufacturers have similar offerings, but better to leave that to others that have sailed them.

(Edit: I'm not sure if the foilglide 8m is actually out yet, but pretty sure it will be soon if it isn't)

There are a lot of options!

You have to choose with type of foiling you want to do?
Wind range?
Your spot is there a steady breeze or is it very gusty?
What foil are you using?
What board are you using?
What is you weight?
What masts do you own currently?

I really like my Severne Glide 7.0. and like Subsonic said, it comes in 8.0

Interesting - I was just looking at the Severne Foil Glide.
It would be paired with Slingshot i76 foil and Wizard 125l board (I'm 75kg). The sailing conditions are gusty (inland lake).

Also having read a few reviews I might need to alter my thinking away from the size of sails I would be using for windsurfing. They seem to suggest that a 6.0 foiling sail is the equivalent to an 8.5m (freeride) windsurfing sail.
Do people agree? (sounds a bit too good to be true).

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TroyMcClure said..
Interesting - I was just looking at the Severne Foil Glide.
It would be paired with Slingshot i76 foil and Wizard 125l board (I'm 75kg). The sailing conditions are gusty (inland lake).

Also having read a few reviews I might need to alter my thinking away from the size of sails I would be using for windsurfing. They seem to suggest that a 6.0 foiling sail is the equivalent to an 8.5m (freeride) windsurfing sail.
Do people agree? (sounds a bit too good to be true).

That's pretty close, I think, once you're past the first stages of the learning curve. At my weight (100kg), and on a big freeride foil I'll use an 8.6 Sailworks NX in 14 up to around 18kt on a fin and in that range I'd either be on a 7m or a 5.8 on a foil. I'd use that same 8.6 on a foil only if it were basically 10-12.
At 75kg there's NO reason to use an 8.0 for foiling until you're on a racy high-aspect wing. On the i76 a 6.0 might be the biggest foil sail you'd ever need. If you have a 6.5 now you could start with that and then decide whether to go toward a full-on foiling sail or just get a gutsy freestyle sail (Severne Freek, Duotone Idol) which will be nearly as effective. Andy Brandt, who's a pretty big dude, uses a custom 5.2 Idol exclusively, largely on the i76.

Get a Sailworks 7.0 Flyer. I 95 kg I don't ever need bigger.

If you are trying to foil in a true 10-12 kts wind, you are wasting your time. There is not enough energy in the wind to get you going. If it 10-12 kts with an occasional gust to 14 or 15 kts (but this is not "true"), you can make it with a 7.0 if you pump the gusts.

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segler said..

If you are trying to foil in a true 10-12 kts wind, you are wasting your time. There is not enough energy in the wind to get you going.

Maybe with that attitude!

Do not know if you can get Aerotech sails in the UK, but the Freespeed line has worked great for me for foiling, use the 8.0 in 8-10 knots and get up easily on an AFS W95 with F1080 wing, though in the 8.0-8.9 knot range do need to pump the tail 2-3 times to get up. I weigh 86 kg, on a slalom board Goya Bolt 135 which has great glide and that really helps in getting up in light wind.

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segler said..
Get a Sailworks 7.0 Flyer. I 95 kg I don't ever need bigger.

If you are trying to foil in a true 10-12 kts wind, you are wasting your time. There is not enough energy in the wind to get you going. If it 10-12 kts with an occasional gust to 14 or 15 kts (but this is not "true"), you can make it with a 7.0 if you pump the gusts.

A different take. Both a friend an I were out foiling yesterday without a whitecap in sight. The local weather station didn't have a report over 9 kts. I was on a Severne HG0 8.0 with a freerace foil. He was on a Sailworks Flyer 8.2 with an i99. A 7.0 would have been useless. With the foil set up I was on yesterday (++ style fuse) at 12 kts I start to have to dump power on a reach. It's not for everybody but a lot of us are getting off the water in 10 and staying up in a lot less. Admittedly, big sails aren't everyone's cup of tea but if you are open to the idea, it opens up a lot of sailing days if you live in a place with marginal winds.

With your board/foil set and your weight I would not go higher than 7.0. Foil Glide or similar is very good.
The difference between 7.0 and 8.0 for you will be small. But a big difference in handling.

Your board/foil set is definitely freeride/manoeuvre oriented. So I would stay away from race or free race sails. Just doesn't match.
Also I don't like the feeling of more than 7,5 on a 81cm wide board.

I have an 8,5 Ezzy Hydra, when i put it on my 81 free-race it's okay but if I put it on my 91 race board you straight away feel that the difference. Much more comfortable. If I put the 9.0 4 cam foil race on the 91 you notice strait away that it really works great together.
Same the other way around: An Ezzy Hydra 7.0 on the 81 feels exactly right. The 7.0 on the 91 not so much. If I put a 6.3 4 cam race on the 91 it feels better than the Ezzy 7.0. I have to test the 6,3 on the 81, probably also a good match.

Remember a wider board generally needs a bigger sail to get going. Add 10 cm on the width and you have to add minimal 1 m2 on the sail.

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Paducah said..

segler said..
Get a Sailworks 7.0 Flyer. I 95 kg I don't ever need bigger.

If you are trying to foil in a true 10-12 kts wind, you are wasting your time. There is not enough energy in the wind to get you going. If it 10-12 kts with an occasional gust to 14 or 15 kts (but this is not "true"), you can make it with a 7.0 if you pump the gusts.

A different take. Both a friend an I were out foiling yesterday without a whitecap in sight. The local weather station didn't have a report over 9 kts. I was on a Severne HG0 8.0 with a freerace foil. He was on a Sailworks Flyer 8.2 with an i99. A 7.0 would have been useless. With the foil set up I was on yesterday (++ style fuse) at 12 kts I start to have to dump power on a reach. It's not for everybody but a lot of us are getting off the water in 10 and staying up in a lot less. Admittedly, big sails aren't everyone's cup of tea but if you are open to the idea, it opens up a lot of sailing days if you live in a place with marginal winds.

I was looking on the web for any review on the HGO 8.0, couldn't find any. How is the sail?

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Robertos said..

Paducah said..

segler said..
Get a Sailworks 7.0 Flyer. I 95 kg I don't ever need bigger.

If you are trying to foil in a true 10-12 kts wind, you are wasting your time. There is not enough energy in the wind to get you going. If it 10-12 kts with an occasional gust to 14 or 15 kts (but this is not "true"), you can make it with a 7.0 if you pump the gusts.

A different take. Both a friend an I were out foiling yesterday without a whitecap in sight. The local weather station didn't have a report over 9 kts. I was on a Severne HG0 8.0 with a freerace foil. He was on a Sailworks Flyer 8.2 with an i99. A 7.0 would have been useless. With the foil set up I was on yesterday (++ style fuse) at 12 kts I start to have to dump power on a reach. It's not for everybody but a lot of us are getting off the water in 10 and staying up in a lot less. Admittedly, big sails aren't everyone's cup of tea but if you are open to the idea, it opens up a lot of sailing days if you live in a place with marginal winds.

I was looking on the web for any review on the HGO 8.0, couldn't find any. How is the sail?

I like it so far. For most of my foiling, I'd used 2 cam freeride and foil sails before getting it. If you are lighter (I'm 64kg)* and want to push the performance envelope, it's a nice option. There really isn't much racing around me so I have it mostly for its range, stability and efficiency.

The cams rotate fairly well and much better than the HG2 I have. Coming out of a jibe they seem to take care of themselves with minimal need to worry about them. Rigging was a pain but I seem to have found the magic amount of downhaul and outhaul to get the cams on, now (I downhaul to about the 12cm mark on the Severne ext and outhaul to about 516-28) I also don't tension to battens too much per advice from others when I was struggling with the HG2. It's definitely stiffer than freeride sails (fin or foil) in the same size but pumps up well.

I'm on the lighter side so don't need the power of the 9. It's an efficient sail, goes upwind like a bat compared to freeride sails and even at my size, 20+ kts isn't a problem as long as your foil is trimmed out. Having an adjustable outhaul is key to getting the most out of it.

Only downside is don't let the luff sleeve fill up with water.

I think there are a number of similar options available in Europe (e.g Loft) but here in the US, options for a better performing big sail are limited and I already had the mast so it was an easier choice. From what I understand the FoilGlide 8.0 may even offer more power but I prefer to have more range as where I sail can be gusty and conditions can change quickly so not getting caught out 2 km from home is a big plus. In steady conditions and for people looking for just an easy sail, the FG may be the better option.

*Before anyone says "Aha!" about my earlier post in foiling 9kts based on my weight, my buddy weighs about 85kg. We both made it work. I had almost as much bottom end when I was in mid the 70s, fwiw.

He owns the shop here but here's a Foil Glide review by him. Not the Olympic review.. Note the wind range he mentions for various riders.

Too much sail for that board/foil combo. 6.5m is about right.
To go bigger you'll need significantly more volume and a more efficient foil.

^+1

If you have the foil & board then just plug in whatever sails you have. That will help you decide on sail size. SS guys in Oz are ripping in the ocean swells on tiny sail. Check out some of the vids on here.

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Robertos said..
With your board/foil set and your weight I would not go higher than 7.0. Foil Glide or similar is very good.
The difference between 7.0 and 8.0 for you will be small. But a big difference in handling.

Your board/foil set is definitely freeride/manoeuvre oriented. So I would stay away from race or free race sails. Just doesn't match.
Also I don't like the feeling of more than 7,5 on a 81cm wide board.

I have an 8,5 Ezzy Hydra, when i put it on my 81 free-race it's okay but if I put it on my 91 race board you straight away feel that the difference. Much more comfortable. If I put the 9.0 4 cam foil race on the 91 you notice strait away that it really works great together.
Same the other way around: An Ezzy Hydra 7.0 on the 81 feels exactly right. The 7.0 on the 91 not so much. If I put a 6.3 4 cam race on the 91 it feels better than the Ezzy 7.0. I have to test the 6,3 on the 81, probably also a good match.

Remember a wider board generally needs a bigger sail to get going. Add 10 cm on the width and you have to add minimal 1 m2 on the sail.

Interesting point about 10 cm more board width needs 1 m2 more sail.

It's not attitude. It's basic physics.

When I am out in 10-12 kt wind with no gusts, my 7.0 does not work. Even my 8.5 does not work. Disclosure: I weigh 95 kg, am an old geezer, for ultra light wind I use a formula board with a 1350 sq cm high AR foil. If there are any gusts at all, I'm fine. I use them to get going.

But, hey, if foilers can make a 8.0 work in 10-12 kt winds, good on them. Go for it.

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segler said..
It's not attitude. It's basic physics.

When I am out in 10-12 kt wind with no gusts, my 7.0 does not work. Even my 8.5 does not work. Disclosure: I weigh 95 kg, am an old geezer, for ultra light wind I use a formula board with a 1350 sq cm high AR foil. If there are any gusts at all, I'm fine. I use them to get going.

But, hey, if foilers can make a 8.0 work in 10-12 kt winds, good on them. Go for it.

That is a big wing for light wind, I say that now, but starting out I would not have. I (86 kg) am using my 8.0 in 8-10 knots and that is the gust range, now realizing my relatively light (7.6 kg) and narrow board (80 cm wide) is an asset in light wind (easy to glide and unstick) as is my AFS 1080 cm2 front wing. 4-5 months ago I was seriously thinking of getting the new Moses high aspect front wing that was like 2100 cm2, saw a picture of it next to my 1080 wing and just thought how much resistance that bigger wing was going to see in the water. So kept on working on my technique, and was checking everything and that was when I noticed the stab. was crooked, shimmed it perfectly level with the front wing and bam suddenly started flying in the 8-10 knot gust range. When the gust is close to 10 no need to pump, but as it goes lower an occasional sail pump helps, and by 9ish need to pump the foil 3x to get up and level off. If gust is below the 8.0-9.0 range can not get up. I am tempted to try my 9.0 in 6-8ish winds (used to use the 9.0 in 8-10), but not sure I will gain anything with my current foil.

Something I realised in foiling (and using bigger race sails in particular). A bigger sail won't get you up and flying through its shear size. Standing there just holding it generally won't magically get you flying in sub 10knots. Unless you catch that lucky gust, you generally have to pump regardless of whether you've got a 10m or a 6m. The difference between the two is a 10m will keep you flying once you're going. The 6m generally won't. I'd almost be inclined to say that with bigger sails, if you don't have to do a few little pumps to get foiling, you've probably over rigged, if only slightly.


I'd agree with what others have said, particularly with the foil glide (if you were to go with that) it's quite a grunty sail size for size, so which size you go for would really depend on just how much wind you want to be able to get going in and your weight. I'd definitely be looking to get a cambered sail if you're aiming to get going in as little as possible. You want a sail that will hold its own shape and not collapse when you inevitably end up swinging off breeze with it.

My vote, for best 8M foil sail is the Loft Skyscape. Just a light in the hands, powerful all-rounder. I have a heap of them and cant recommend them enough.

Hey Sand, I know a couple foilers here who are using the Moses/SABfoil 1100 wing (2100 cm2). It is a beast, but it is still pretty fast. One guy goes out on his and practices deep S-turns in really light winds with a 7.0 sail with nary a whitecap in sight.

For me the Moses/SABfoil 950 (1350 cm2) is plenty big enough. It offers really good ability to keep flying in horrible gusty conditions where the sail power is on and off. In similar conditions my Moses/SABfoil 720 (750 cm2) does not keep flying, but is always up and down. The 720 is great in steady wind.

I contend that 1120 cm2 is the sweet spot for my 95 kg weight. I have that with the F800 wing on my AFS-2.

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segler said..
Hey Sand, I know a couple foilers here who are using the Moses/SABfoil 1100 wing (2100 cm2). It is a beast, but it is still pretty fast. One guy goes out on his and practices deep S-turns in really light winds with a 7.0 sail with nary a whitecap in sight.

For me the Moses/SABfoil 950 (1350 cm2) is plenty big enough. It offers really good ability to keep flying in horrible gusty conditions where the sail power is on and off. In similar conditions my Moses/SABfoil 720 (750 cm2) does not keep flying, but is always up and down. The 720 is great in steady wind.

I contend that 1120 cm2 is the sweet spot for my 95 kg weight. I have that with the F800 wing on my AFS-2.

Segler FYI, the F800 is actually1080 cm2, I know it was originally listed as 1120 cm2 but that was not correct and it was updated about a year ago by AFS, confirmed with AFS.

As for the Moses 1100 wing at 2100 cm2, the bigger the wing the more drag and so it has to be slower than a similar aspect wing of a smaller size like the F800 at 1080 cm2. I want the smallest wing I need for the conditions so I have as much speed as possible to try to complete a foiling gybe.

Sandman a bigger wing with a lower stall speed will make it easier to complete gybes than your F800. Your concept has merit, carrying good speed into and through a gybe is good to do for sure. But what really helps when you are working things out is a wing that keeps flying even though you have slowed down.

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utcminusfour said..
Sandman a bigger wing with a lower stall speed will make it easier to complete gybes than your F800. Your concept has merit, carrying good speed into and through a gybe is good to do for sure. But what really helps when you are working things out is a wing that keeps flying even though you have slowed down.

utcminusfour I agree, but the F800 is the biggest wing AFS makes And I like going fast! Plane on flipping the sail right after initiating the gybe, instead of later like I have been doing, in order to have enough speed to carry me through. WhiteofHeart mentioned that in another post..

Thanks, Sand, for the corrected area of the F800. I will update my records.