So I bought my AFS W95 foil from Wind-NC.com, Andy and I talked many times about foiling, and one thing he would always say at the end of a conversation was to try sheeting the sail out in-flight and start pumping the foil, he claimed he could go as long as he wanted without any wind. Now he was on a SS with the 84 wing and so I always thought that may not translate to a AFS F800/1080 wing since it was about half the surface area. But I have been pumping the foil to get up in marginal winds. So today there was a 1/2 mile wind shadow along the shore and as I tried to foil back to shore after being out for ~2 hrs I ran into the wind shadow and could feel the board going down, so I started to pump the foil in-flight. Amazing, I actually started to accelerate!, kept doing it back and forth and got the hang of pumping in-flight while keeping my height fairly level. So all I need now is a gust to get me up and then I am good to go! Of course it does take a little more energy to pump in-flight, versus using the wind, but I can bridge just about any lull now pumping the foil!

Too old to continue pumping in 5 mph lulls.
Need the little slugfest to rest up a bit.
10-15, usually 5.0 sail, 1150 foil, 310 stab, 122 liter board.

Yup. Helps a lot to get height when borderline and then to accelerate a little bit by dropping altitude without touching down.

There's definitely a limit but it seems less tiring to me than pumping the sail and aggravating elbow joints.

It is like the guy who pumps a foil board for Horue, he has no sail/rig, just the foil. That is what it felt like today, almost effortless foiling for a couple hundred yards at a clip.

I've learned recently to synchronize pumping board and sail to get to the next wind line, but after about 10-15 pumps, I'm out of steam

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WsurfAustin said..
I've learned recently to synchronize pumping board and sail to get to the next wind line, but after about 10-15 pumps, I'm out of steam

Sounds like the board is still on the water, yes you can pump the sail and foil to get forward speed, but that is not what I am talking about. When you are up on the foil with board in the air, pumping just the foil takes very little effort to keep the board moving fast through the air (not on the water). Look at the youtube videos of the guy that pumps the Horue board and foil, it looks almost effortless because it is! "once you are up". No pumping the sail, just rocking the board/foil with the back foot and then front foot is all it takes, got to get the right rhythm, while controlling your height, and then you are moving. The board feels bouncy when you push down with your rear foot, like landing on a trampoline, the trampoline pushes back against your foot. Just be careful if the wind picks backup, because it will make you breach if you do not adjust your pumping of the foil. Next thing for me is to learn how to turn the board in the air while pumping the foil.

You must have strong legs.
Me weak. Have not run 3 steps since 2007, so I doubt I can leg pump.

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LeeD said..
You must have strong legs.
Me weak. Have not run 3 steps since 2007, so I doubt I can leg pump.

It really does no take a lot of leg strength, it is more the right rhythm that is important. My legs never felt like they were exerting a lot of effort when pumping the foil with the board in the air, and did not get tired either for the couple hundred yard long runs I was doing.

Now pumping the foil to get the board up in the air takes more effort, but that only takes three pumps for me with the right wind speed. If the wind speed is too low I can feel it on the first pump and stop.

I think you underestimate (or overestimate) how little wind you had. Pumping the board without any sail power is very very intensive. Even Balz M?ller can hold out only for 2 minutes on end maximum. Having a little sail power helps tremendously. I dont know if you tried actually dockstarting or pumpfoiling from a start behind the boat, but its really something else. I dont think you could move your board fast enough to foil on boardpumps alone using a windfoil setup. I feel my 5'10 wingboard already has quite a lot of swing weight for pumping, and that thing is under 6kgs, let alone the weight of the rig if you'd try on a windfoil setup. If it were possible you'd think the likes of Krian Badloe, Nico Goyard & Luuc van Opzeeland would have figured it out so they dont ever drop of the foil in a race.

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WhiteofHeart said..
I think you underestimate (or overestimate) how little wind you had. Pumping the board without any sail power is very very intensive. Even Balz M?ller can hold out only for 2 minutes on end maximum. Having a little sail power helps tremendously. I dont know if you tried actually dockstarting or pumpfoiling from a start behind the boat, but its really something else. I dont think you could move your board fast enough to foil on boardpumps alone using a windfoil setup. I feel my 5'10 wingboard already has quite a lot of swing weight for pumping, and that thing is under 6kgs, let alone the weight of the rig if you'd try on a windfoil setup. If it were possible you'd think the likes of Krian Badloe, Nico Goyard & Luuc van Opzeeland would have figured it out so they dont ever drop of the foil in a race.

Well like I said, Andy from Wind-NC.com said he could pump the i84 wing as long as he wanted with no wind "once he got up with a gust", and there is no reason for him to exaggerate. As for wind speed, what amazed me is as I approached the wind shadow first my speed dropped and then the board started to drop to the water, but when I started to pump the foil my speed "increased", I was moving noticeably faster than when I had just used only the wind. And it was not one run, I started going back and forth in and out of the wind shadow with the same result. And when I got out of the wind shadow, or a gust hit me, I knew right away because the foil lifted too much and I had to stop pumping it. So I was moving faster by pumping the foil than whatever the wind speed was.

Remember, I am doing this on an AFS F1080 cm2 wing, and pumping that big of a wing generates a lot of lift. Those racers are on smaller wings in comparison, and in addition they are race wings, and likely do not generate nearly as much lift from just pumping the foil. Too much drag/lift from the F1080 wing for racing, but plenty of lift for pumping!

And what about all those YouTube videos of the Horue guy pumping the foil on just a board for really long runs on flat water with no sail?

I suspect, if we are up on foil, we can leg pump and sail pump thru lulls of around 7.
With 5 meter sails, a gust of 14 seems needed, and lots of sail pumping.
1150 low drag delta.

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LeeD said..
I suspect, if we are up on foil, we can leg pump and sail pump thru lulls of around 7.
With 5 meter sails, a gust of 14 seems needed, and lots of sail pumping.
1150 low drag delta.

Sail pumping not needed with the AFS F1080 wing and 1 stabilizer shim, I weight 86 kg.

Maybe you are applying someone else's words to your idea of reality.
The sail gets in the way if not pumped.
Are you claiming you can board pump a 135 liter board and not need a sail or wing? In almost no wind?
Please....no.

Sandman, ignore the negative comments. It's always the same naysayers isn't it .

I understand exactly what you've posted and agree 100%.
In certain locations and conditions I've found exactly the same thing.
The feeling is so cool, and it's just another skill we learn to make the most of the conditions.
Thanks for posting!

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LeeD said..
Maybe you are applying someone else's words to your idea of reality.
The sail gets in the way if not pumped.
Are you claiming you can board pump a 135 liter board and not need a sail or wing? In almost no wind?
Please....no.

YES I am saying that, and sail does not get in way, keep it in a neutral position so it has minimal wind resistance, cause like I said I was really moving from just the foil pumping.

Just go to YouTube and watch the Horue guy pump almost effortlessly.

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dantren said..
Sandman, ignore the negative comments. It's always the same naysayers isn't it .

I understand exactly what you've posted and agree 100%.
In certain locations and conditions I've found exactly the same thing.
The feeling is so cool, and it's just another skill we learn to make the most of the conditions.
Thanks for posting!

Thank you dantren, trying to let these guys know about something so cool!

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Sandman keep doing it, you are on the right track! You are not necessarily onto something new, you just are fully realizing all the new "gears" you have in your transmission because of foiling.
By focusing on JUST pumping the foil in flight you more quickly master that one essential skill. Wake foiling is another great way to focus on foil pumping. The better you get at foil pumping alone the easier it gets to combine it with sail pumping. Combining the two skills creates a gain that is more than the some of the parts and suddenly taking off with smaller sails and traversing long lulls gets way easier.

I can understand why the others questioned your distance. But I can also see how if you come hauling butt into a lull with an efficient foil like yours it will glide a long way on its own then you can extend that glide with some foil pumps. Unless the sail is completely flagged out in front of you it is helping. Just the action of pumping only the foil will still pop the leach and if there is any true wind at all you just pumped the sail without trying. Perhaps you're getting more help from the sail than you realize.

Whatever the details are, the "MAGIC" you are feeling is real and I am stoked for you! Harnessing the power from below is so much fun!

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utcminusfour said..

Sandman keep doing it, you are on the right track! You are not necessarily onto something new, you just are fully realizing all the new "gears" you have in your transmission because of foiling.
By focusing on JUST pumping the foil in flight you more quickly master that one essential skill. Wake foiling is another great way to focus on foil pumping. The better you get at foil pumping alone the easier it gets to combine it with sail pumping. Combining the two skills creates a gain that is more than the some of the parts and suddenly taking off with smaller sails and traversing long lulls gets way easier.

I can understand why the others questioned your distance. But I can also see how if you come hauling butt into a lull with an efficient foil like yours it will glide a long way on its own then you can extend that glide with some foil pumps. Unless the sail is completely flagged out in front of you it is helping. Just the action of pumping only the foil will still pop the leach and if there is any true wind at all you just pumped the sail without trying. Perhaps you're getting more help from the sail than you realize.

Whatever the details are, the "MAGIC" you are feeling is real and I am stoked for you! Harnessing the power from below is so much fun!

Thanks utcminusfour!, as for the sail, Andy told me to learn to pump the foil in-flight by first letting the sail out, and then pump the foil, when there is enough wind to foil. That is what he does on the SS with 84 wing. I did not let the sail because I ran into the wind shadow and the wind dropped so that I could not foil with the sail alone. Will have to get some runs in by letting out the sail first and then pumping. When you are pumping the foil it helps to use the boom for stability and that means the sail is arms length away.

Possible, but still takes a really fit, very skilled rider....and some breeze.
Since I'm neither, I'm excluded.

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LeeD said..
Possible, but still takes a really fit, very skilled rider....and some breeze.
Since I'm neither, I'm excluded.

Thanks LeeD, I agree it is not easy, learning to pump the foil to get the board up in the air in marginal winds helped a lot. The AFS F1080 wing is certainly not the biggest or easiest wing to do that on, but boy is it fast when just pumping the foil! And I cannot pump that wing when foiling under wind power because it wants to come right out of the water on the first pump.

The other thing is I am wondering if I can pump the board in-flight with the F770 wing, thinking I may not be able to due to reduced surface area, but will see. Though the F770 is not nearly as big as a platform, so that will make pumping it tricky, will try pumping the board up into the air with marginal wind first to see if I can even do that.

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Sandman1221 said..

LeeD said..
Maybe you are applying someone else's words to your idea of reality.
The sail gets in the way if not pumped.
Are you claiming you can board pump a 135 liter board and not need a sail or wing? In almost no wind?
Please....no.

YES I am saying that, and sail does not get in way, keep it in a neutral position so it has minimal wind resistance, cause like I said I was really moving from just the foil pumping.

Just go to YouTube and watch the Horue guy pump almost effortlessly.

That Video is really old by Foiling standards.... there are a million guys on You tube pumping foils - it's almost it's own sport...

So LeeD, you are right about needing some wind, at least for almost effortless pumping of the foil with the board in the air. I was out today, with an 8.0 sail and as the winds dropped I pumped the board up in the air on a puff of wind. Once up in the air the puff was gone, so I started pumping the foil to keep the board in the air. It took more leg work and it was harder to control my direction (though I did) and I was not going as fast as last Friday, but still had a ~1/4 mile run all the same. I think what happened is when the wind dropped down around 3-5 knots the sail had more resistance going through the air and so I had to pump the foil harder. The difficulty controlling direction was probably due to the drag from the sail, I was pushing it through the air and the asymmetrical shape of the sail affected steering of the foil.

Of course you can pump a foil board in no wind (after some kind of assist to get to foiling speed), but add on a 8.0 sail and the drag is significant. Not sure if the rig weight is as much of an issue as its drag through the air.

The other thing for pumping the foil/board in the air is once you get the board free of the water by pumping or a gust, you then need to lean forward to start pumping the foil in the air. If you lean back it will feel impossible to do, and will be impossible.

Well, pumping does work for sure, but my old legs don't like it much.
Extending foil time is a reality, but with a 4.2 sail, maybe still needs minimums of 8 to keep going with lots of effort.
More effort than I will give anyway.

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LeeD said..
Well, pumping does work for sure, but my old legs don't like it much.
Extending foil time is a reality, but with a 4.2 sail, maybe still needs minimums of 8 to keep going with lots of effort.
More effort than I will give anyway.

Yeah, my 8.0 Freespeed is as big as I need (86 kg) for the minimum wind, 9.0 does not help and increases drag and weight. If it is down around 8 knots then it does take some work to get up, but as long as I have a long flight it is worth it and I get to recover in-flight. Occasional pumping in-flight when a lull passes also helps to extend the flight.

This guy knows about pumping a foil:

/videos

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JonnyWindsurf said..
This guy knows about pumping a foil:

/videos

video unavailable

In around 8 knot gusts (7-9) for a slalom style board (Bolt 135) with a narrower tail than a foil board, I place my front foot in front of the mast base to keep the board level so the tail does not sink, and then I start pumping the foil gently using short pushes, as the board starts to come up and I gain forward speed I carefully slide my front foot back into the front foot strap and then start pumping the foil with longer pushes to break the board free of the water, and as soon as the board is off the water I lean forward while pumping to gain more forward speed. Then it just depends on how strong the gust is as to wether I keep pumping, though in those conditions I am ready to pump occasionally in-flight if I run into a lull. By leaning forward while pumping in-flight you feel like you are going downhill on the water, that is the best way I can describe the feeling.

Note, when the wind gusts are around 8 knots, with max in the low to mid 9s, I can only pump the board up off the water going down wind (and then pump the foil in the air as needed), cruise along going upwind but can not get back to my starting point by foiling. But hey, one way flights are better than none!

And now that we are getting stronger winds I have tried pumping the AFS F770 cm2 wing in-flight, but it just pushes through the water without lifting. Very noticeable difference from the F1080 cm2 wing, boy AFS really nailed it with the F1080 wing for light wind foiling and in-flight pumping! Guess that is why the PWA racers are always pumping the sail and not the foil, their wings are too small to pump.

Take that back, the AFS F770 wing can be pumped in-flight, but it is not as powerful as the F1080 wing, so have to pump it with less effort so that you do not push it through the water, can be pumped to cover a short drop in wind speed.