I had my first foil today and it went well although there are a number of questions I have for experienced riders.

Board: SS Wizard 125, Foil: Infinity 76 & 61cm mast, Sail: NP Atlas 5.8
Wind: Gusty 10-20+

I found I could get into a groove where I would be at a comfortable height but then all of the sudden I would experience lift pushing the foil higher and higher which I couldn't correct and would breach. This seems of happen at random times (e.g. not only when there were gusts). I started with the mast base in the centre of the track and moved it 80% of the way forward which helped prolong stable flight but still seemed to be fighting excessive lift at times. I was reluctant to move the base all the way forward as the sail was starting to feel awkward to hold (and de power). I was definitely overpowered a lot of the time and am wondering if this may be one of the issues.

The second thing I observed was the foil would go slightly sideway at times but guessing I was pushing too hard on it. Lastly I found it hard to keep the back foot in the straps, when I did I was pressing hard with my toes to keep the board level.

Any way the following 2 min clip from today captures all of these issues for the carful observer (and anyone interested)...

First Foil, dude Awesome!!
I think the changes in altitude are probably a result of over correcting. Time on the water and retraining your "windsurfer" muscle memory will fix that in no time.
The 5.8 also probably wasn't helping, being overpowered while learning to foil makes things difficult, but you knew that.
You also looked more comfortable with your back foot out of the strap, nothing wrong with that being your default.
Keep the videos coming, think we can expect to see rapid improvement

Congrats - you look in super control for a first flight

Enjoy the next few sessions, don't overthink it, TOW is key.
As discussed elsewhere you've chosen the perfect kit to learn easily and make quick progress

Agree with Simon - a smaller sail would've lessened the lift in the gusts.

Looks fantastic for a first session. With a smaller sail, you would have had no problems with overfoiling. With more practice, you'll learn to control the sudden lift issues even with a sail that's too big for the conditions.

The sideways slipping is typical for short masts. On a 45 cm mast, I often have the back foot across the center line, and push on the toes. Any heel pressure and the foil wants to slip sideways. Any extra mast length reduces this problem. The 61 cm mast still requires a lot of attention to the back foot; the 71 cm is better, and the issue pretty much goes away with the 90 cm mast. I think this is partly because more mast remains in the water with longer masts, and partly because the angles change so less sideway force is exerted with the longer mast.

For the first time that's great foiling. I am not an experienced foiler, pls shred/slash my comments.

1) Front/back foot seems quite deep in straps and locked in. Hopefully you can easily get out. My straps are narrow (comfortable) and high for foot egress. In the video the angle of the front foot relative to board is locked regardless of board direction; consequence is stress on knee joint/hip/spine. Maybe back your foot out 1 cm and allow the front foot to change angle depending on direction of travel.
2) The few times harness is used, the straps aren't balanced. From hook to aft is longer, maybe move forward by 1cm. This will cause the less stress on the body; the back and front hand will move forward 1 cm and mast angle will shift more towards vertical.
3) Review Youtube mobility/flexibility exercises for Foot, Ankle, Knee, Hip, Spine, wrist. If some joints are inflexible, the body will compensate and stress other joints/muscle to make up the difference; overall effect is the body will get tired quicker and less time on the water.
4) No death grip needed, relax the front/back hand grip.
5) Maintain foot pressure on front OR back or front AND back ; using both knees as shock absorbers (like mogol skiings) will reduce sail/body/board/foil/water connection; I think when both knees are flexing there is zero foot pressure on the board.

I have found this forum extremely helpful, I can't wait for our spring windsurf season to start.

You are transitioning from windsurfing mode to windfoiling mode. It used to take me 10 minutes at the first of every session to get out of the old habits. Windfoiling mode is much more upright and forward oriented. Good news is you are doing well on the upright part. You aren't leaning way out.

Look at around 0:58 when you foil out. From what it looks like, you get hit by a gust, you reflexively sheet in and lean back which powers up the back foot and you foil out. As others have said, you are pretty well powered up and using a short mast so you have very little margin for error which makes this happen in a split second.


A windfoiling approach to the scenario is as you are hit by the gust, learn to relax the back hand, shift the shoulders forward (yeah, it goes against the core of your windsurfing instincts) and shift forward by bending the front leg (puts more pressure on the front hand and mast base). Practice it when you are less powered and get the feel of putting the board back down on the water.

Good luck! Glad you had a fun first outing. It was remarkably better than mine.


Edit: you may find these useful: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-spinout-?page=1
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Front-foot-pressure--how-do-I-get-it-?page=1

Nice job, you've totally got it! Pretty fun huh? It looks like you're totally ready for the 95cm mast. It will buy you more time to make pitch corrections and it's way more relaxing having the extra room knowing you won't breach right away. Keep us posted with more progress videos.

Brilliant first go mate! Now repeat often...

My number if breaches decreased significantly when I moved my harness lines forward by at least a few inches.

When the gust hits and you are at reach of over foiling you have at least two options: turn aggressively up wind or step the back door forward.

Ideally, you could control the wing angle of attack just by adjusting back and front foot pressure while still in the straps. I can do this very well on my slingshot freestyle and never need to move back got forward (I still round up wind in the gusts), but on my wizard I sometimes couldn't get enough front foot pressure to stop a breach, so would have to step the back foot forward.

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owain said..
I had my first foil today and it went well although there are a number of questions I have for experienced riders.

Board: SS Wizard 125, Foil: Infinity 76 & 61cm mast, Sail: NP Atlas 5.8
Wind: Gusty 10-20+

I found I could get into a groove where I would be at a comfortable height but then all of the sudden I would experience lift pushing the foil higher and higher which I couldn't correct and would breach. This seems of happen at random times (e.g. not only when there were gusts). I started with the mast base in the centre of the track and moved it 80% of the way forward which helped prolong stable flight but still seemed to be fighting excessive lift at times. I was reluctant to move the base all the way forward as the sail was starting to feel awkward to hold (and de power). I was definitely overpowered a lot of the time and am wondering if this may be one of the issues.

The second thing I observed was the foil would go slightly sideway at times but guessing I was pushing too hard on it. Lastly I found it hard to keep the back foot in the straps, when I did I was pressing hard with my toes to keep the board level.

Any way the following 2 min clip from today captures all of these issues for the carful observer (and anyone interested)...

Great first out! Talking beginner to beginner what I notice from the video is the back leg often too bent. It is often in a windsurfing position: keep it straight and locked in once you are flying. And it looks like there is too much pressure applied to the boom. As others have said that's the way we windsurf, but what really made a difference for me control wise is to stop using the boom to counteract wind pressure. Just let it go, should feel effortless.

But the 61 mast is also a culprit. It is completely useless. Most of the time you are not really foiling with it and when you do you are close to breaching. The marketing of a shorter mast is just a way of making you spend more money. One soon realizes that it is too short, hard to control, and ... you have to buy another one. Every single Slingshot user around here started that way, and soon got rid of it to realize how much easier a 80-95 mast is.

Side note: I used a 5.4 Atlas recently and it felt like a powerful fairly rigid sail, at least the way it was rigged, with a lot of pull from its middle. That does not help much, and it might be why you have a sensation of sideway drift (or it might be the foil ...). Not sure if a bit more downhaul would help. My Point-7 ACX have a much more front oriented pull that seems to work perfect. Similar, but not as good, with a Severne Freek. Hot Sails KS3 felt a bit too easy to depower. Just saying: you do not need a foil specific sail but some are better than others.

- If in the position to do so, ask a mate to use your kit and set it up, balance is key.
- In the beginning, rig your sail as you would for windsurfing normally, doing something different there too because you read that you should on the internet only changes even more at once. That said, even a little more (or even a cm or two more than you are used to for high wind!) downhaul and outhaul just makes for a more stable sail, so gusts and stuff change your balance a lot less so you can learn technique. Thats also the only way I survive the 40+ knots days on the foil.
- The middle is always a good startingpoint on welldesigned / fitting kit. (applies to literally everything)
- Sail every week (or even day like I did), also if you think the wind is too much or especially if you think its a little too little, that will help you become a better pumper / more efficient sailor!

That's awesome Owain :).

Interesting to follow the progress from day 1 + the footage, as we have all been through those stages.

Looks like you are ahead of the curve all ready :).
Some good comments above,,

Duzzi: Regarding the comments on the shorter mast (61cm). Just for your info, then the standard SS Hoverglide package all comes with the 90cm mast. The smaller mast and in this case the 61cm is offered to all new foilers to borrow for free. (from my place anyway)
Lots of beginners will take this option.

There is no doubt that the 90cm mast is much better and the one to use. (this is also explained to new foilers).

But don't forget how 'intimidating' it can be first times out foiling and thinking of breaching out of the water 100cm up in the air and crash. The 61cm kind of making the first outings a 'bit more forgiving'.

Some will use the 61cm one time, others a week and some not at all. Just a choice.
No extra $ made, but just some $ invested in getting new foilers into it, with the option to borrow it.

I used a short mast myself the first time out and thought the option was great, to down tune the 'fear factor'.
I'm sure Owain will be on the 90cm mast very soon and feel the progress :)

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Sail Repair WA said..
There is no doubt that the 90cm mast is much better and the one to use. (this is also explained to new foilers).

But don't forget how 'intimidating' it can be first times out foiling and thinking of breaching out of the water 100cm up in the air and crash. The 61cm kind of making the first outings a 'bit more forgiving'.

Every beginning foiler looking at a 90cm mast: What sadist designed that and what maniac uses it?

Every experienced foiler looking at a 60cm mast: What sadist designed that and what maniac uses it?

Congrats owain,

Great first foil.

Much more room for "breaching error" with 90cm mast, but a longer walk in the sea to launch depth.

Am jealous of the Wind: Gusty 10-20+

Any catapults? Do you need a noseprotector for your board/mast, if so, plenty of postings on options on seabreeze.

Have fun.

Very much appreciate all the replies & taking time to review the scientific footage.

I will write a summary and post it from all the comments as soon as I finish work as I think there are so many good points that I can 100% relate to (now) and the next person who is in my position can leverage.

Looking great for first time foil, well done. The wizard 125 and SS foil is a fantastic set up.
If you move your mast base back further it will be easier to get lift off and the foil will act less erratic, and as others have said use a longer foil mast.

I'm only learning too but I had the same rising thing. Board lifting and slowing down. I am told that as well as lifting in gusts, it will also lift in lulls due to decreased mast-foot pressure. Same solution, lean forward bit, board slowly lowers back onto water.

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VCRWoody said..
For the first time that's great foiling. I am not an experienced foiler, pls shred/slash my comments.

1) Front/back foot seems quite deep in straps and locked in. Hopefully you can easily get out. My straps are narrow (comfortable) and high for foot egress. In the video the angle of the front foot relative to board is locked regardless of board direction; consequence is stress on knee joint/hip/spine. Maybe back your foot out 1 cm and allow the front foot to change angle depending on direction of travel.
2) The few times harness is used, the straps aren't balanced. From hook to aft is longer, maybe move forward by 1cm. This will cause the less stress on the body; the back and front hand will move forward 1 cm and mast angle will shift more towards vertical.
3) Review Youtube mobility/flexibility exercises for Foot, Ankle, Knee, Hip, Spine, wrist. If some joints are inflexible, the body will compensate and stress other joints/muscle to make up the difference; overall effect is the body will get tired quicker and less time on the water.
4) No death grip needed, relax the front/back hand grip.
5) Maintain foot pressure on front OR back or front AND back ; using both knees as shock absorbers (like mogol skiings) will reduce sail/body/board/foil/water connection; I think when both knees are flexing there is zero foot pressure on the board.

I have found this forum extremely helpful, I can't wait for our spring windsurf season to start.

I had the front straps snug(ish) and the back a little bit looser. My main complaint was the back straps being loose didn't let me press hard with the top of my foot to balance the foil so my thought was to tighten them for the next session. To be honest the weight position / feet stance / knee bend was the most difficult thing to understand what was working and what wasn't. I think I will move the back straps forward 1 position (currently in the second most rear position).

Yep my harness lines were setup terrible, I think this was a tie over from my last sail in 30+ where I broke my toe. I only own a 5.8 so it goes out in all conditions.

I do remember having a death grip, I think this might be my normal scared windsurfing mode :S

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duzzi said..

owain said..
I had my first foil today and it went well although there are a number of questions I have for experienced riders.

Board: SS Wizard 125, Foil: Infinity 76 & 61cm mast, Sail: NP Atlas 5.8
Wind: Gusty 10-20+

I found I could get into a groove where I would be at a comfortable height but then all of the sudden I would experience lift pushing the foil higher and higher which I couldn't correct and would breach. This seems of happen at random times (e.g. not only when there were gusts). I started with the mast base in the centre of the track and moved it 80% of the way forward which helped prolong stable flight but still seemed to be fighting excessive lift at times. I was reluctant to move the base all the way forward as the sail was starting to feel awkward to hold (and de power). I was definitely overpowered a lot of the time and am wondering if this may be one of the issues.

The second thing I observed was the foil would go slightly sideway at times but guessing I was pushing too hard on it. Lastly I found it hard to keep the back foot in the straps, when I did I was pressing hard with my toes to keep the board level.

Any way the following 2 min clip from today captures all of these issues for the carful observer (and anyone interested)...

Great first out! Talking beginner to beginner what I notice from the video is the back leg often too bent. It is often in a windsurfing position: keep it straight and locked in once you are flying. And it looks like there is too much pressure applied to the boom. As others have said that's the way we windsurf, but what really made a difference for me control wise is to stop using the boom to counteract wind pressure. Just let it go, should feel effortless.

But the 61 mast is also a culprit. It is completely useless. Most of the time you are not really foiling with it and when you do you are close to breaching. The marketing of a shorter mast is just a way of making you spend more money. One soon realizes that it is too short, hard to control, and ... you have to buy another one. Every single Slingshot user around here started that way, and soon got rid of it to realize how much easier a 80-95 mast is.

Side note: I used a 5.4 Atlas recently and it felt like a powerful fairly rigid sail, at least the way it was rigged, with a lot of pull from its middle. That does not help much, and it might be why you have a sensation of sideway drift (or it might be the foil ...). Not sure if a bit more downhaul would help. My Point-7 ACX have a much more front oriented pull that seems to work perfect. Similar, but not as good, with a Severne Freek. Hot Sails KS3 felt a bit too easy to depower. Just saying: you do not need a foil specific sail but some are better than others.

By the end of the session I had adopted a close grip towards the front of the boom heavily sheeted out (overpowered) which let me just focus on just flying the foil. I also noticed I was no longer staring at the board fearing for my safety but looking forward and actually sailing which also helped me get into the groove better.

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Paducah said..
You are transitioning from windsurfing mode to windfoiling mode. It used to take me 10 minutes at the first of every session to get out of the old habits. Windfoiling mode is much more upright and forward oriented. Good news is you are doing well on the upright part. You aren't leaning way out.

Look at around 0:58 when you foil out. From what it looks like, you get hit by a gust, you reflexively sheet in and lean back which powers up the back foot and you foil out. As others have said, you are pretty well powered up and using a short mast so you have very little margin for error which makes this happen in a split second.


A windfoiling approach to the scenario is as you are hit by the gust, learn to relax the back hand, shift the shoulders forward (yeah, it goes against the core of your windsurfing instincts) and shift forward by bending the front leg (puts more pressure on the front hand and mast base). Practice it when you are less powered and get the feel of putting the board back down on the water.

Good luck! Glad you had a fun first outing. It was remarkably better than mine.


Edit: you may find these useful: www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Foil-spinout-?page=1
www.seabreeze.com.au/forums/Windsurfing/Foiling/Front-foot-pressure--how-do-I-get-it-?page=1

I think this is maybe one mindset I had backwards as I was thinking bending the back leg would reduce back foot pressure (hence aid front foot pressure) but totally makes sense that bending your front foot will provide the mast foot pressure. I think I could have discovered Newtonian mechanics just thinking about this to be honest.

I recently started as well (about 10 sessions in now) and have had very similar experiences to what you described. In a nutshell here is what I did:

Sail size: 5.8 @ 20 knots is too big, I am 110kg and would use a 6.2 in 10-12 knots. at 20 knots I would probably use a 5.3 or 4.7. This will help a little with the problem of breeching and overall having more control over the foil. Also if you are underpowered rather then overpowered you get. better feeling for weight distribution between the front and back foot.

Straps: take the rear straps off! you don't need them in the first few sessions. I find I still have my foot mostly placed in the middle of the board. The important foot straps are the front one. Everything in wind foiling is done mainly over the front foot... or at least that's what I found. This includes loading up the foil to go faster.

Mast length: The 61 cm mast is not as forgiving as a 90 cm mast when it comes to breaching.

Have a look on YouTube. I found the videos of Balz M?ller, Slingshot, Foil Academy all have very helpful tips. Also ask other foilers on the beach. I have had a lot of great tips on how different board / sail / foil / foot placements will impact on the trim.

And practice practice practice...

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owain said..

I think this is maybe one mindset I had backwards as I was thinking bending the back leg would reduce back foot pressure (hence aid front foot pressure) but totally makes sense that bending your front foot will provide the mast foot pressure. I think I could have discovered Newtonian mechanics just thinking about this to be honest.

I did that in the beginning as well and tried to put pressure onto the mast base by leaning my upper body forward. This results in a rather contorted stance that gave me a back ache in no time. I followed the "bend front leg" to apply more pressure onto the mast base to prevent breeching as well and it mad e Abigails difference to having a more relaxed stance on the board.

I had my second foiling session today and it was truely night and day from my first session I think largely to all the advice everyone gave me.

Conditions: 10-15+ NE

Setup changes:
- 90 cm mast
- Harness line forward, very forward
- Mast base was a few cm aft of the middle
- Slightly less downhaul, leech just becoming soft
- Rear footstrap was moved forward one position (Second most forward)

Stance:
- Kept more of a straight front leg
- Trying to ride over the board more, especially in the gusts

Sail trim:
- No death grip, I would say this helped significantly
- Preempting gusts more than normal windsurfing particularly off the breeze was super important to being able to control the foil. This could consist of moving grip forward and sheeting out in conjunction to getting weight off the back foot to be able to send the board back down

I think I could have definitely been on a 4.7 which would have helped even more but being on a bigger sail just meant I had to be more proactive dealing with gusts. I did over foil on many occasions but feel most of the time it was due to sheeting in and putting too much weight on the back foot. I think one major cause of this was when I started to pick up some decent speed and just was scared having my weight over the board and naturally wanted to lean back and sheet in. Going up wind this was not a problem and it was very comfortable being in both straps and the harness even through gusts. I found taking one had off the boom was easy as it was basically the opposite of death grip and didn't feel I was going to get catapulted.

Probably the biggest help was using the 90cm mast. It does exactly what everyone said, gives you much more time to react. That said it is a bit nerve racking when to you are close to breaching at decent speed and trying to send the foil down but by the end I was much more comfortable getting on top of it. There was also very little sideways action with the bigger mast as people metioned.

Here is a clip from today, if you make it to the end you can enjoy a nice catapult

Select to expand quote

owain said..
I had my second foiling session today and it was truely night and day from my first session I think largely to all the advice everyone gave me.

Conditions: 10-15+ NE

Setup changes:
- 90 cm mast
- Harness line forward, very forward
- Mast base was a few cm aft of the middle
- Slightly less downhaul, leech just becoming soft
- Rear footstrap was moved forward one position (Second most forward)

Stance:
- Kept more of a straight front leg
- Trying to ride over the board more, especially in the gusts

Sail trim:
- No death grip, I would say this helped significantly
- Preempting gusts more than normal windsurfing particularly off the breeze was super important to being able to control the foil. This could consist of moving grip forward and sheeting out in conjunction to getting weight off the back foot to be able to send the board back down

I think I could have definitely been on a 4.7 which would have helped even more but being on a bigger sail just meant I had to be more proactive dealing with gusts. I did over foil on many occasions but feel most of the time it was due to sheeting in and putting too much weight on the back foot. I think one major cause of this was when I started to pick up some decent speed and just was scared having my weight over the board and naturally wanted to lean back and sheet in. Going up wind this was not a problem and it was very comfortable being in both straps and the harness even through gusts. I found taking one had off the boom was easy as it was basically the opposite of death grip and didn't feel I was going to get catapulted.

Probably the biggest help was using the 90cm mast. It does exactly what everyone said, gives you much more time to react. That said it is a bit nerve racking when to you are close to breaching at decent speed and trying to send the foil down but by the end I was much more comfortable getting on top of it. There was also very little sideways action with the bigger mast as people metioned.

Here is a clip from today, if you make it to the end you can enjoy a nice catapult

Very impressive! Hope my next session tomorrow goes as good as yours. I'm going to do a video too, in order to see what the heck I look like out their. Have fun!