My small wings (below) while I wait for the Phantasm high aspect PTM 730 held up with Covid supply issues - by all accounts an epic wing, I'm frothing to try it.
In the meantime I bought the Simmer and Axis. Totally worth adapting to fit the awesome Phantasm kit - 103W carbon mast, super-strong fuselage with long mast insert and efficient 400 stabilizer. The setup is so balanced (with W114 and Freestyle 87 boards) that all the front wings work without shimming the stab - as long as the bottom of the wing lines up with the bottom of the fuselage (when adapting the Simmer and Axis).

If anyone has any questions I'll happily try and answer

BTW - the PTM 730 is missing but Jesper has recently received a lot of other Phantasm stock - PFI 730 and PTM 926 lower packages, fuses and masts. The 103W aluminum mast in particular looks awesome, almost as stiff as my carbon 103W but at a much lower price.
simmerstyle.com.au/collections/2020-phantasm-carbon

SS PFI 730
SS PTM 926 (cut down to 830)
Simmer 730 (adapter built on wing)
Axis ART 799 (separate adapter)


The wing I'm waiting for;

Interested to see how you get that axis 799 to fit on the phantasm,heard lot of good things about that one. Still loving my axis HPS 830 the glide can be addicting.And yes where I live we still can't get any phantasm carbon masts etc.

waiting for the PTM 684 had a tad too much lift today on the PFI 730....love the array of different front wings, one size doesn't always fit all ;)

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CoreAS said..
waiting for the PTM 684 had a tad too much lift today on the PFI 730....love the array of different front wings, one size doesn't always fit all ;)

"Love the array of different wings".

There are quite a few on the US website but the PFI 730 & PTM 926 (when it's not sold out) are the only ones available in Australia.

Did you get your PTM 1001 yet?

I just ordered an AFS F 700S, about same surface area as the PTM 730, but only 700 mm wide, looking to use it in 15-20+ knots where the regular F 700 feels like it is maxed out speed wise.

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Sandman1221 said..
I just ordered an AFS F 700S, about same surface area as the PTM 730, but only 700 mm wide, looking to use it in 15-20+ knots where the regular F 700 feels like it is maxed out speed wise.

What speeds are you reaching on your F700?

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Shorebreak said..

CoreAS said..
waiting for the PTM 684 had a tad too much lift today on the PFI 730....love the array of different front wings, one size doesn't always fit all ;)

"Love the array of different wings".

There are quite a few on the US website but the PFI 730 & PTM 926 (when it's not sold out) are the only ones available in Australia.

Did you get your PTM 1001 yet?

Still waiting for the 1001

wish there was an adapter for the phantasm fuse to infinity wings the time code and i65 are still great front wings

I can hit 22 mph with an AFS F700 (779 cm2) wing. Sailworks guys used to get it up to 30 mph, but they are in a different league anyway.

The F700S (655 cm2) wing has less area and is supposedly faster.

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CoreAS said..

Shorebreak said..

CoreAS said..
waiting for the PTM 684 had a tad too much lift today on the PFI 730....love the array of different front wings, one size doesn't always fit all ;)

"Love the array of different wings".

There are quite a few on the US website but the PFI 730 & PTM 926 (when it's not sold out) are the only ones available in Australia.

Did you get your PTM 1001 yet?

Still waiting for the 1001

wish there was an adapter for the phantasm fuse to infinity wings the time code and i65 are still great front wings

I could probably make one if I had the phantasm fuse geometry. I have the I76 I could reverse engineer. I'm an Inventor/designer with a machining center capable of 3d surfacing. This is of course assuming the geometry would be feasible for an interface between the two. Never seen one up close.

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Paducah said..

Sandman1221 said..
I just ordered an AFS F 700S, about same surface area as the PTM 730, but only 700 mm wide, looking to use it in 15-20+ knots where the regular F 700 feels like it is maxed out speed wise.

What speeds are you reaching on your F700?

Paducah, Have not checked speed, just know when I was on the F700 (now F770) in 15 with gusts to 20+ the board was not accelerating when the gusts hit me, so hoping the F700S (now called S-670) will allow kit to accelerate in those conditions, should with 100 cm2 less surface area. On AFS website they are reporting 30-34 knots VMG with the slalom wings, assume that is for the S-670, the smallest slalom wing.

Will be interesting to see how the speed compares with the windsurfers, they are passing me now when fully powered up.

Wing update with the PTM 730 (borrowed from Jesper).

PTM 730 is smoother and a little more roll-stable than the ART 799 but not appreciably faster (for me) than any of the other wings.
Control becomes the speed limiter with our relatively short fuses, wave sails and typical choppy, turbulent conditions.
All the wings do a reasonably comfortable 20-22 knots on the ocean and can be pushed in flatter water to around 24 knots.

The smaller wings feel super-slippery which is fun but they don't turn any better, are a little trickier to gybe and need 15-18 knots to get up on foil.
At 80kgs my optimum minimum small wing area is around 800cm2.

Used all with the 400 rear wing, experimented with shimming but works fine un-shimmed.

Hey JJ. I think you need to try a few more tail wing options next. Slingshots offerings are limited in their tails. I've still not windfoiled my RS 1000cm2 GoFoil I think it be a pretty good allrounder. Plenty of aftermarket G10 tails around or get the angle grinder out and start chopping.

Great info in this thread on front wings. My max speed yesterday on the PFI730 was 21knots in ~24 knots of wind using a 4.5 sailworks flyer.
Curious if anyone has any wind speed to foil speed data. When I max out, there's no pressure left in the sail and I have to turn back upwind. There's a local guy on an IQ foil training for the Olympics and he seems to stay sheeted in pointing dead down wind and maintaining speed the whole time. His apparent wind keeps him going which I guess is a combination of 9 meter sail and race oriented foils. I see the sailgp boats can achieve 3 times the wind speed !.

21 knots is plenty fast for me and the PFI keeps me up in the lulls between puffs. I've only ever ridden the I76 and PFI 730. The PFI has certainly made the high wind more manageable when overpowered. So question is if you're not going necessary for speed, is the High aspect wing lower surface area (PTM) more about control in higher wind/wave conditions?. No ocean swell here, just checkerboard chop from wind and motor boats.

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WsurfAustin said..
Great info in this thread on front wings. My max speed yesterday on the PFI730 was 21knots in ~24 knots of wind using a 4.5 sailworks flyer.
Curious if anyone has any wind speed to foil speed data. When I max out, there's no pressure left in the sail and I have to turn back upwind. There's a local guy on an IQ foil training for the Olympics and he seems to stay sheeted in pointing dead down wind and maintaining speed the whole time. His apparent wind keeps him going which I guess is a combination of 9 meter sail and race oriented foils. I see the sailgp boats can achieve 3 times the wind speed !.

21 knots is plenty fast for me and the PFI keeps me up in the lulls between puffs. I've only ever ridden the I76 and PFI 730. The PFI has certainly made the high wind more manageable when overpowered. So question is if you're not going necessary for speed, is the High aspect wing lower surface area (PTM) more about control in higher wind/wave conditions?. No ocean swell here, just checkerboard chop from wind and motor boats.

As an aside, I doubt the IQFoil is going dead downwind - maybe very deep but not dead downwind. As you suggest, the reason he can go deeper is he has twice your sail area. When you start going deeper, the apparent wind is swinging forward and getting lighter. So, it's the same as trying to get very high upwind angles - sail area, ie power matters, a lot.

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azymuth said..
Wing update with the PTM 730 (borrowed from Jesper).

PTM 730 is smoother and a little more roll-stable than the ART 799 but not appreciably faster (for me) than any of the other wings.
Control becomes the speed limiter with our relatively short fuses, wave sails and typical choppy, turbulent conditions.
All the wings do a reasonably comfortable 20-22 knots on the ocean and can be pushed in flatter water to around 24 knots.

The smaller wings feel super-slippery which is fun but they don't turn any better, are a little trickier to gybe and need 15-18 knots to get up on foil.
At 80kgs my optimum minimum small wing area is around 800cm2.

Used all with the 400 rear wing, experimented with shimming but works fine un-shimmed.

Lots of options there and lots around JJ. I tryed some other smaller wings like the slingshot GW 683 (similar to the phantasm wing) and the 639 but found I like the trusty moses 720 better for high winds its just like the slingshot infinity 65. The new sabfoil 699 might be a good choice for high wind swell rides if it is anything like the 799.

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azymuth said..

The smaller wings feel super-slippery which is fun but they don't turn any better, are a little trickier to gybe and need 15-18 knots to get up on foil.

So as WsurfAustin asks, what are the advantages of the smaller wings? (I only get to sail on a gusty lake so have never had the opportunity to try one).

Better for jumping and strong winds, higher speeds.

So after testing 5 High Aspect wings;
Axis ART 799
Simmer Blackbird 720
Phantasm PTM 730
Phantasm PTM 1001
Phantasm PTM 825
none of them really suit me - I like a "locked in" feel to foil fast in swells and push hard against the foil in carves and turns.
All above felt a little unstable in roll and yaw and no faster because of reduced control.

My favorite front wing is the Simmer Blackbird 920.
A little more medium aspect which seems to work for ocean foiling - trying to go fast, carve downwind, ride waves and fly upwind with good angles.


Tried a few rear wings - the Axis 375 Progressive works ok but is a bit skittish (perhaps 1 knot faster) - prefer the standard Phantasm 400 with 2mm neg shim.

Interested to hear other's experiences.

Think the G series will be for you JJ

Like you I have been testing front wings and also cancelled a few (ptm1001, pt825, ptm730). there is bit of a shift at the moment, the HA have a place of course but foilers I talk to all are leaning towards medium aspect.

The original PTM926 is part of the new phantasm G series family because of the aspect ratio, and I have spent more hours on the 926 than any other foil.

I tested the new ptm930 (AR is 9.1) for wind foiling and its quite twitchy with pitch and roll, it's really for downwind winging more than anything else.

The G series are medium aspect and will be 1000, 900, 800 & 700.... I tested the G-800 and it gave me that locked in feel, stabile but able to carve.... I absolutely loved it because when it behaves it means I can push it harder.

If a foil rolls on me, it gives me the Willys especially in the surf.

Basically, I will use the ptm926 in 10-17 and G-800 in 14-22+ the perfect combo... I am waiting for the G-700 hopefully for 22-30+

in the pic: top is ptm930 (HA), middle ptm926 (MA) bottom G-800 (MA)

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azymuth said..
So after testing 5 High Aspect wings;
Axis ART 799
Simmer Blackbird 720
Phantasm PTM 730
Phantasm PTM 1001
Phantasm PTM 825
none of them really suit me - I like a "locked in" feel to foil fast in swells and push hard against the foil in carves and turns.
All above felt a little unstable in roll and yaw and no faster because of reduced control.

My favorite front wing is the Simmer Blackbird 920.
A little more medium aspect which seems to work for ocean foiling - trying to go fast, carve downwind, ride waves and fly upwind with good angles.


Tried a few rear wings - the Axis 375 Progressive works ok but is a bit skittish (perhaps 1 knot faster) - prefer the standard Phantasm 400 with 2mm neg shim.

Interested to hear other's experiences.

What did you think of simons sab 799? not really high aspect though

I have the G 800 on order but at 1173 sq. cm might still be to big will see. When I foil in shallow water I switch to my axis setup with 90cm mast and hps700 front wing also its not really a high aspect 5.6 AR with my 4.0 or 3.4 it's lots fun and very forgiving in the jibes still have not tested it in open ocean swell.The phantasm with the W103 carbon is still my go to in open ocean foiling.

Can you guys take pictures of these from the front to see the dihedral profile, I think this has a very significant affect on roll stability and the ability to breach a tip.

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Grantmac said..
Can you guys take pictures of these from the front to see the dihedral profile, I think this has a very significant affect on roll stability and the ability to breach a tip.

The Phantasm has an identical anhedral foil shape viewed from the front as the Simmer.

The Simmer is maybe 5mm thicker - so it's either that or the section or the slightly longer chord that makes it feel more stable.
Probably a little of each?

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thedoor said..
What did you think of simons sab 799? not really high aspect though

I like it - it's similar to the Phantasm 926 that I cut down to 825.
The SAB 799 is thicker than the Simmer 920, probably a couple of knots slower but turns sharper - which is why Simon froths on it

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CoreAS said..
Think the G series will be for you JJ

Like you I have been testing front wings and also cancelled a few (ptm1001, pt825, ptm730). there is bit of a shift at the moment, the HA have a place of course but foilers I talk to all are leaning towards medium aspect.

The original PTM926 is part of the new phantasm G series family because of the aspect ratio, and I have spent more hours on the 926 than any other foil.

I tested the new ptm930 (AR is 9.1) for wind foiling and its quite twitchy with pitch and roll, it's really for downwind winging more than anything else.

The G series are medium aspect and will be 1000, 900, 800 & 700.... I tested the G-800 and it gave me that locked in feel, stabile but able to carve.... I absolutely loved it because when it behaves it means I can push it harder.

If a foil rolls on me, it gives me the Willys especially in the surf.

Basically, I will use the ptm926 in 10-17 and G-800 in 14-22+ the perfect combo... I am waiting for the G-700 hopefully for 22-30+

in the pic: top is ptm930 (HA), middle ptm926 (MA) bottom G-800 (MA)

Cheers Dean - we're on the same page re. foil roll in swells.

My cut-down 926 is probably similar to the G800 - thanks for the info.

I'll see if a G700 turns up